Government Spying on Millions (Verizon)

[Bogtrotter07]

Whatever he had access to is now considered compromised. He's toast, eventually. It's really sad to hear folks support his actions as they hurt a very good program that was helping to save lives. America is becoming a laughingstock because some of our citizens are willing to do and or support their own demise. If he had any real sense of patriotism he would have stayed here in the US no matter the consequences. He's doing this for him, not anyone else.

Bob, buddy, if he gets millions of dollars in checks, then I will buy that interpretation. I think the idea of him trading secrets to the Russians and Chinese is out the window. Especially with his A) continued presence in the media, (not for attention); and, B) his heading to Ecuador, (those to whom he sold secrets would never let him out of their control.)

As far as a good program, how do you know? Seriously, do actually know anything about this program and it's effectiveness. I don't necessarily believe it is both limited as reported and counter-terrorism as advertised.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Whatever he had access to is now considered compromised. He's toast, eventually. It's really sad to hear folks support his actions as they hurt a very good program that was helping to save lives. America is becoming a laughingstock because some of our citizens are willing to do and or support their own demise. If he had any real sense of patriotism he would have stayed here in the US no matter the consequences. He's doing this for him, not anyone else.

This post actually makes me sad. Not because of Snowden, but because you agree with PRISM.

 

[RuntheBall]

First time I opened this thread, but didn't the government find Bin ***** via "phone records". I wonder if this program got them this intel (though they would never say). If it did I'd say that is successful. Personally I don't mind the program (in the limited reading I have done- aka a WSJ article from June 16th or 17th. I'll try to find it). I have nothing to hide.

 

[BobD]

Bob, buddy, if he gets millions of dollars in checks, then I will buy that interpretation. I think the idea of him trading secrets to the Russians and Chinese is out the window. Especially with his A) continued presence in the media, (not for attention); and, B) his heading to Ecuador, (those to whom he sold secrets would never let him out of their control.)

As far as a good program, how do you know? Seriously, do actually know anything about this program and it's effectiveness. I don't necessarily believe it is both limited as reported and counter-terrorism as advertised.

Boggs, buddy,

Patriots don't flee, criminals do.

Do you really believe that China and Russia are taking all the diplomatic fire for this stooge, for nothing?

Once they have the info, they could give a crap where he goes.

 

[Fbolt]

Me either.

Iceland is just as likely to be his destination.

And in time I think the whole point of Prism is to catch corporate and tech spies. People that try to steal the latest technology.

Snowden knows that any commercial flight will have him arrested by the US almost immediately. He had to take a flight from someone who wasn't going to hand him over to the US, those options are limited.

The plane flight could have been to Iceland-but when it's heading to these particular bastions of democracy it seems obvious, at least to those with their eyes open, what's going on. His escape from US authorities is being handled by certain people, with obvious ties to certain governments.

I'm guessing the Russians or Chinese turned him a few years back. He's acting out the whistleblower role because a country aiding a supposed whistleblower is less volatile politically, than an outright double agent..

I am going to disagree with this. If he had been working for another govt for years or any length of time, then he would have probably disappeared and not been seen in the media. I think this is a foolish, immature guy who is compounding his mistakes one on top of another. Sadly, I think he's looking for his 15 minutes.

Fbolt's comment doesn't seem out in leftfield but closer to home plate.

Whoa - BobD was all over this too. Thx.

I think the idea of him trading secrets to the Russians and Chinese is out the window. Especially with his A) continued presence in the media, (not for attention); and, B) his heading to Ecuador, (those to whom he sold secrets would never let him out of their control.)

As far as a good program, how do you know? Seriously, do actually know anything about this program and it's effectiveness. I don't necessarily believe it is both limited as reported and counter-terrorism as advertised.

I think we'll never know the effectiveness of this program. As citizens we will have to filter the rhetoric of the government and search for the truth-which is probably somewhat less than what they are claiming. However, I think that tinfoil hat on your head Bogs is probably a tad too tight. Haha. Used for corporate theft (a topic that could have it's own thread)?? Maybe corporate theft being done by hostile countries such as the Russians or Chinese-but that's where I think that begins and ends.

 

[MJ12666]

So far Snowden has moved from Hong Kong to Moscow. And upon landing in Moscow, moved to the Ecuadorian Embassy. That sure does sound suspicious! Honestly, if I did something like this, I wish I were that smart. I am sure that Wikileaks and Snowden are making it as difficult as possible to get an extraction team or an assassination squad close to him. This kind of logistical arrangement has been in the works for a while.

You need to stop taking spy movies so seriously, these movies are for entertaining the masses and do not reflect what happens in the real world.

 

[BobD]

I am going to disagree with this. If he had been working for another govt for years or any length of time, then he would have probably disappeared and not been seen in the media. I think this is a foolish, immature guy who is compounding his mistakes one on top of another. Sadly, I think he's looking for his 15 minutes.

Your probably right, but China and Russia doing what they've done so far, lead me to believe there has been information given to them. They always enjoy sticking it in our eye, but even more than China letting him go, the Russians allowing him to land there is pretty antagonistic. I'd love to hear the behind the scenes negotiations. I thought I heard this morning that one of our agency directors was in Russia two days ago.

 

[Buster Bluth]

First time I opened this thread, but didn't the government find Bin ***** via "phone records".

The illegal part of PRISM is that they are recording the actions of Americans. That didn't help find Bin *****, and nobody cares what they do to foreigners.

I wonder if this program got them this intel (though they would never say). If it did I'd say that is successful.

It didn't, by its very definition.

Personally I don't mind the program (in the limited reading I have done- aka a WSJ article from June 16th or 17th. I'll try to find it). I have nothing to hide.

Having "nothing to hide" has nothing to do with it. The government is recording every bit of electronic communication you make, potentially for the entire duration of your life. You don't think that's a bad thing?! What do you think the ol' Founding Fathers would have said if the British required you to make a copy of all of your mail and give it to them--but they promise they won't read it unless you commit an act or terrorism.

There are about a trillion ways this could go wrong. Just one example is what we've seen with the IRS scandal, what happens when you're running for President and so-and-so decides to call a buddy with access to the system (there are millions), and voila, suddenly the Facebook message RuntheBall had back in college about anal sex with his girlfriend (you kinky bastard) is revealed to the world, and some junior-level nothing falls on the sword (whilst receiving $2,000,000 from anonymous sources) and that's that, your campaign is an embarrassment. If campaigns are willing to dig up college papers (Obama, etc), talk about a bullying incident in middle school (Romney), question your place of birth (McCain, Obama), etc.--they'll sure as hell attempt to get dirt from this.

Of course, they'll only use this system to fight terrorism. Then again, the government doesn't even have a definition of terrorism. Double then again, money laundering laws were passed only to be used against organized crime, and now they're used all of the time. The list goes on and on, the government encroaches slowly on your rights.

 

[Buster Bluth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=m9-R8T1SuG4#t=153s

George Carlin nails it, talking about the rights you don't actually have.

 

[Buster Bluth]

IF, he wanted to open this program up I think the prudent thing to do is to go through channels and if that failed then do what he did-IF exposing the program was his true purpose.

He did not. If he had tried appropriate means he would have laid this out in public as a way to justify his actions. That's what people do. Human behavior.

Who is to say he didn't? Who is to say he wasn't scared for his life?

Assassination-I think the above post re: watching too many movies is appropriate here. I know people believe we do the old umbrella attack with a cyanide crap, but that is so Iron Curtain it's ridiculous.

You know that guy at work who is a low level employee who knows everything? The one who believes he knows more than the bosses? You know, the narcissistic one? That's Snowden.

Umm what? We "disappear" people pretty frequently. You're being naive.

 

[BobD]

Thing's will just have to play themselves out for you guys to see what this stooge Snowden is really all about and that the government doesn't care what your googling, tweeting or talking about.


If I'm wrong he's a patriot and the spy program is out of control. I hope your wrong, he's a traitor and the spy program is working great because that's a much better scenario..

 

[Fbolt]

Umm what? We "disappear" people pretty frequently. You're being naive.

I'm pretty sure the people we "disappear" go through FISA courts and such-Presidential approval and all that. Killing this guy would create significant problems. I don't believe this is something the USG does offhand.

 

[Kak7304]

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's pretty important for the current discussion happening here.

3 NSA veterans speak out on whistle-blower: We told you so

When a National Security Agency contractor revealed top-secret details this month on the government's collection of Americans' phone and Internet records, one select group of intelligence veterans breathed a sigh of relief.

Thomas Drake, William Binney and J. Kirk Wiebe belong to a select fraternity: the NSA officials who paved the way.

For years, the three whistle-blowers had told anyone who would listen that the NSA collects huge swaths of communications data from U.S. citizens. They had spent decades in the top ranks of the agency, designing and managing the very data-collection systems they say have been turned against Americans. When they became convinced that fundamental constitutional rights were being violated, they complained first to their superiors, then to federal investigators, congressional oversight committees and, finally, to the news media.

To the intelligence community, the trio are villains who compromised what the government classifies as some of its most secret, crucial and successful initiatives. They have been investigated as criminals and forced to give up careers, reputations and friendships built over a lifetime.

Today, they feel vindicated.

They say the documents leaked by Edward Snowden, the 29-year-old former NSA contractor who worked as a systems administrator, proves their claims of sweeping government surveillance of millions of Americans not suspected of any wrongdoing. They say those revelations only hint at the programs' reach.

On Friday, USA TODAY brought Drake, Binney and Wiebe together for the first time since the story broke to discuss the NSA revelations. With their lawyer, Jesselyn Radack of the Government Accountability Project, they weighed their implications and their repercussions. They disputed the administration's claim of the impact of the disclosures on national security — and President Obama's argument that Congress and the courts are providing effective oversight.

And they have warnings for Snowden on what he should expect next.

More of the story and Q & A at the link. I highly suggest you all read this.

 

[Fbolt]

Snippets here:

Drake: Well, fear of rendition. There is going to be a team sent in.
____________
Binney: First tortured, then maybe even rendered and tortured and then incarcerated and then tried and incarcerated or even executed.
_____________

The above statements are delusional. At least IMO.



Binney: Certainly he performed a really great public service to begin with by exposing these programs and making the government in a sense publicly accountable for what they're doing. At least now they are going to have some kind of open discussion like that.

But now he is starting to talk about things like the government hacking into China and all this kind of thing. He is going a little bit too far. I don't think he had access to that program. But somebody talked to him about it, and so he said, from what I have read, anyway, he said that somebody, a reliable source, told him that the U.S. government is hacking into all these countries. But that's not a public service, and now he is going a little beyond public service.

So he is transitioning from whistle-blower to a traitor.
_________________________________
Interesting point above.

More interesting is that this article is completely slanted - the three people on this panel have either been convicted for leaking, admitted their leaks, or have been suspected of leaks. They seem to have suffered the consequences of their actions by losing their clearances.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

First thing about this thread is the civility, I want to acknowledge BobD, Fbolt, Kak, Buster, BGIF, MJ and anyone else I missed! Disparate perspectives, conciliatory, respectful behavior! Especially on an issue that strikes at the core of ones ideals, passion, and patriotism.

You need to stop taking spy movies so seriously, these movies are for entertaining the masses and do not reflect what happens in the real world.

I actually have not watched a spy movie since I was a kid. Oh snap! The kids and I watched Get Smart last night!

On a more serious note. We do assassinate people. And we do have teams that do that. Proof? OsbL. And we have for years. Diem, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, and the list goes on. That doesn't include failed attempts and Castro, Manuel Noriega, and Daniel Ortega. Also, do you think these drone strikes against high value targets take place without boots on the ground?

Tin foil hat to tight! That is funny Fbolt.

The wisdom of the crowd is the process of taking into account the collective opinion of a group of individuals rather than a single expert to answer a question. A large group's aggregated answers to questions involving quantity estimation, general world knowledge, and spatial reasoning has generally been found to be as good as, and often better than, the answer given by any of the individuals within the group. An intuitive and often-cited explanation for this phenomenon is that there is idiosyncratic noise associated with each individual judgment, and taking the average over a large number of responses will go some way toward canceling the effect of this noise.[1] This process, while not new to the information age, has been pushed into the mainstream spotlight by social information sites such as Wikipedia and Yahoo! Answers, and other web resources that rely on human opinion.[2]

The process, in the business world at least, was written about in detail by James Surowiecki in his book The Wisdom of Crowds.[3]

The logical, final, and ultimate use for the kind of information being collected is prediction modeling. When is it time to present the first woman or African-American candidate for President? What are the qualities the American public will identify with? etc., etc.,

To paraphrase someone's earlier post; I chose to think of this as the scenario because alternative is to frightening to contemplate.

 

[chicago51]

"The where is Snowden?" stuff is a big distraction from the real discussion we should be having about PRISM and other government and private anti-privacy measures that are occurring.

 

[MJ12666]

First thing about this thread is the civility, I want to acknowledge BobD, Fbolt, Kak, Buster, BGIF, MJ and anyone else I missed! Disparate perspectives, conciliatory, respectful behavior! Especially on an issue that strikes at the core of ones ideals, passion, and patriotism.



I actually have not watched a spy movie since I was a kid. Oh snap! The kids and I watched Get Smart last night!

On a more serious note. We do assassinate people. And we do have teams that do that. Proof? OsbL. And we have for years. Diem, Che Guevara, Patrice Lumumba, and the list goes on. That doesn't include failed attempts and Castro, Manuel Noriega, and Daniel Ortega. Also, do you think these drone strikes against high value targets take place without boots on the ground?

Tin foil hat to tight! That is funny Fbolt.



The logical, final, and ultimate use for the kind of information being collected is prediction modeling. When is it time to present the first woman or African-American candidate for President? What are the qualities the American public will identify with? etc., etc.,

To paraphrase someone's earlier post; I chose to think of this as the scenario because alternative is to frightening to contemplate.

I think you are stretching the facts a little to justify your position. All of the above examples are military actions (let's exclude any events that occurred more then 25 years ago). Further I believe it would be against the law for the CIA to put out a contract on Snowden.

There seems to be a misconception as to what telephone information is being collected under "PRISM". I explained this earlier but it appears I was not clear. First of all I work for a major telephone communications company and while I do not have any direct knowledge of the program I can make an educated guess. Basically Verizon is turning over telephone number records to the NSA. That would be the "originating" number and the number that the call was "terminated". THEY ARE NOT RECORDING THE ACTUAL CONVERSATIONS AND TURNING THEM OVER TO THE NSA. I would then assume the NSA has some program the matches numbers that they suspect or have identified as belonging to terrorists with the data obtained from Verizon. At that point it is my understanding that if they want to "pursue" a lead they obtain a warrant to get a tap on the lines to listen in on any future calls.

Now I don't believe that any of the above is in violation of the constitution or any laws but if it bothers anyone I have no problem with your opinion. I personally don't. I would much rather the NSA continue this program and we get rid of of the TSA.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I read an interesting article about how our modern surveillance state makes it easier to bribe and blackmail politicians:

The problem we face here is social, institutional. Bribery, blackmail, influence peddling, flattery — these have always been and always will be part of any political landscape. Our challenge is to minimize the degree to which they corrupt the political process. “Make better humans” is not a strategy that is likely succeed. “Find better leaders” is just slightly less naive. Institutional problems require institutional solutions. We did manage to reduce the malign influence of the J. Edgar Hoover security state, by placing institutional checks on what law enforcement and intelligence agencies could do, and by placing those agencies under more public and intrusive supervision. I think that much of our task today is devising a sufficient surveillance architecture for our surveillance architecture.

But as we are talking about all this, let’s remember what we are talking about. We are not talking about a tradeoff between “security” and “privacy”. That framing is a distraction. Our current path is to pay for (alleged) security by acquiescence to increasingly corrupt and corruptible governance. We ought to ask ourselves whether a very secure, very corrupt state is better than the alternatives, whether security for corruption is a tradeoff we are willing to make.

 

[Buster Bluth]

It's not antagonistic to disagree. I like the conversation. While I am no longer in the military I was able to put" two and two together "along time ago about our governments strong interest, ability and need to monitor communications and almost everything everything that moves. Have you ever heard about our microphones placed all over the world on the ocean floor? The giant Russian telephone cable we found and tapped under the sea? Our ability to decipher ANY decryption? Our spy satellites aren't just for watching, they listen too.
The ability for your cell phone to be used as a monitoring device? It's all common knowledge kind of stuff with info available on Google. Other countries are working hard to catch up to us and they know what we've been up to. My POV is that it seems pretty obvious our government monitors everything as a way to make us more secure. How could people think otherwise?

And PATRIOTS DON'T FLEE TO CHINA AND RUSSIA.

You've shown me three things. That the US is a hypocrite and a monster when to comes to privacy and hacking, that you haven't read enough history ("How could people think otherwise?"), and have made up rules that patriots cannot attempt to flee the omnipresent US you just told us all about.

 

[potownhero]

It's not antagonistic to disagree. I like the conversation. While I am no longer in the military I was able to put" two and two together "along time ago about our governments strong interest, ability and need to monitor communications and almost everything everything that moves. Have you ever heard about our microphones placed all over the world on the ocean floor? The giant Russian telephone cable we found and tapped under the sea? Our ability to decipher ANY decryption? Our spy satellites aren't just for watching, they listen too.
The ability for your cell phone to be used as a monitoring device? It's all common knowledge kind of stuff with info available on Google. Other countries are working hard to catch up to us and they know what we've been up to. My POV is that it seems pretty obvious our government monitors everything as a way to make us more secure. How could people think otherwise?

And PATRIOTS DON'T FLEE TO CHINA AND RUSSIA.

Having the ability doesn't make it legal.

Have you considered what happened to other whistle-blowers? What other alternative locations were left for him?

 

[BobD]

You've shown me three things. That the US is a hypocrite and a monster when to comes to privacy and hacking, that you haven't read enough history ("How could people think otherwise?"), and have made up rules that patriots cannot attempt to flee the omnipresent US you just told us all about.

You have shown me three things as well,

1. You misunderstood why I said "how could people think otherwise". I say it because it's so friggin obvious the US monitors everything. Information is everywhere and has been for a long time that we do these kind of things. I've read LOTS of history and followed current events, so I guess I have the unique ability to read between the lines and accept the obvious without being smacked on the head.

2. You have no idea what's involved with preserving our way of life, how good we have it or the danger we face.

3. You don't realize that Americans will likely die because of what this idiot has done.

 

[BGIF]

Having the ability doesn't make it legal.

I read that under current law it is legal. Did I miss the courts overturning it and making it illegal?

Have you considered what happened to other whistle-blowers?

Such as ... .

What other alternative locations were left for him?

Home, according to his father, Lonnie Snowden who almost a week ago publicly made an appeal to his son to stop the leaks and come home.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You have shown me three things as well,

1. You misunderstood why I said "how could people think otherwise". I say it because it's so friggin obvious the US monitors everything. Information is everywhere and has been for a long time that we do these kind of things. I've read LOTS of history and followed current events, so I guess I have the unique ability to read between the lines and accept the obvious without being smacked on the head.

2. You have no idea what's involved with preserving our way of life, how good we have it or the danger we face.

3. You don't realize that Americans will likely die because of what this idiot has done.

You know that hasn't stopped anyone over the last twenty years. I always thought Scooter and Dick should have been shot for outing Valerie Plame, but no. They don't have even an inkling of the totals killed, American and foreign, just over that one political game, so obviously the rules are such that honor, intelligence, duty, and loyalty no longer matter.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The Washington Post's Wonk Blog just posted a good summary of everything we've learned thus far about how the NSA's secret programs work. It should improve the level of debate on this issue.

 

[STLDomer]

Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Where are the Snowdens of yesteryear?

I don't know, ask Daniel Ellsberg.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

The Economist just published a chart showing countries that have signed extradition treaties with America:

The NSA leaker Edward Snowden can take refuge in many places

THE whereabouts of Edward Snowden, a former computer technician at America’s National Security Agency who leaked secret documents a fortnight ago, remain unknown.* Mr Snowden arrived in Moscow over the weekend from Hong Kong, after America issued a warrant for his arrest for theft and espionage. He requested political asylum in Ecuador and was thought to be en route there from Moscow via Havana on June 24th, but he never appeared on the plane. Still, there are many places he could go to avoid the reach of American law. More than 100 countries have signed extradition treaties with America, which means that they comply with requests to arrest and hand over suspects. Yet around 60 countries do not have such a treaty, including China, Russia and many poor countries. However there are loopholes. Some treaties have clauses that protect people facing the death penalty or for asylum-seekers. (Julian Assange of Wikileaks is sheltering in the Ecuadorian embassy in London on the grounds of political asylum to avoid extradition to Sweden.) Conversely, the lack of a treaty does not mean that a country may not honour an American request to detain a suspect. Mr Snowden must choose his destination carefully.

* Update: Russia's President Vladimir Putin confirmed on Tuesday afternoon that Mr Snowden is in a transit zone at Moscow's Sheremetyevo Airport.

 

[FLDomer]

The Economist just published a chart showing countries that have signed extradition treaties with America:

I hear Chad is lovely this time of the yr!

 

[phgreek]

I read an interesting article about how our modern surveillance state makes it easier to bribe and blackmail politicians:

Amen!

 

[phgreek]

The Washington Post's Wonk Blog just posted a good summary of everything we've learned thus far about how the NSA's secret programs work. It should improve the level of debate on this issue.

you legal beagles out there help me out...

the article says..."For example, if an intercepted communication contains information about a crime being committed, the NSA may retain the information and turn it over the law enforcement."

If the "general" warrant NSA is operating under discovers evidence outside the scope and purpose of the warrant...isn't there some sort of exclusionary rule that applies here. The interpretation just seems contrary to what I would have thought here.

...and trust me I'm no fan of exclusionary rules in evidence...but cops/investigators seem to have to deal with that stuff all the time...why is this different?