'12 IN QB Gunner Kiel (Cincinnati Transfer)

[dublinirish]

not sure where this assertation that GK is a "Pro Style QB" when he never played in such a system in his career to date.

 

[koonja]

BGIF has me so inspired, for get Keil and Rees, I'm about to try out for QB!

 

[stlnd01]

c]. Gunner is/was in a bad place for becoming the ND quarterback next year because of the circumstances which required Everett to start. Everett didn't become Tyrod Taylor yet [Taylor wasn't either at that stage], but demonstrated that he might develop in that way. Coach obviously thinks that he can work with that.

I have difficulty understanding why anyone has trouble sussing this. Gunner himself, and his family, have apparently been able to do so.

The only thing I have trouble sussing is why now.

I see no upside at all for Kiel in quitting before spring practice, before he has a chance to even compete for the job, just because he's told that Rees is ahead of him on the depth chart. If he's still No. 3 on April 21, than by all means, look around and God bless. But leaving now just makes it look like QB1 of the Class of 2012 doesn't have the sack to fight for the job with a weak-armed senior and a green true freshman.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but unless there's something else going on here, it appears he's doing it to himself. If nothing else, Gunner, take the 15 practices and get a little exposure to a monster pass rush and top-flight DBs. It'll serve you well when you land at Ball State.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

a]. Gunner is a perfect fit theoretically for the stand-and-deliver quickly [with using your feet when you are asked to] offensive scheme that Coach likes;

b]. Gunner is number three going into the Spring, and anything else that Coach could have told him would have been a lie, making Kelly the exact kind of liar-to-athletes that this board always howls at the opposing coaches about. Kelly is NOT that man;

c]. Gunner is/was in a bad place for becoming the ND quarterback next year because of the circumstances which required Everett to start. Everett didn't become Tyrod Taylor yet [Taylor wasn't either at that stage], but demonstrated that he might develop in that way. Coach obviously thinks that he can work with that.

I have difficulty understanding why anyone has trouble sussing this. Gunner himself, and his family, have apparently been able to do so.

I, too, view this as a sad confluence of circumstance which costs us the possibility of seeing a great stand [or run] and deliver pro-quality quarterback develop at ND. It is probable that if Everett were abducted by aliens and Gunner started all next year, that we would have had growing pains again and not won quite as many games. The future? Probably pretty darn good. But Kelly doesn't play in the future, so Gunner would have to overcome today's Everett by today's Gunner.

Gunner apparently thought the odds of today's Gunner overcoming today's Everett [in Kelly's eyes] was not probable.

Good piece! I have a few questions: Was Everett more than number three coming out of winter into spring last year? And was he more than four the fall before?

Why wouldn't it be brilliant on Martin and Kelly's part to have two capable quarterbacks of contrasting style as a (true) change up? I mean we can see how much it improved Tommy's game performance to negate teams being able to prepare for his weaknesses. I mean I know Tommy worked hard to improve his game, but he had certain weaknesses, that in preparing for other teams were able to very negatively affect, almost control his performance in his last half dozen (or so) starts.

Teams don't have the luxury to do that when a player is second team, and a coach can call a limited number of plays to a qb's strength, away from his weakness as well. Wasn't this part of Kelly's offensive strength at Cinci? Didn't this even make Everett better last season, when Tommy could come in if needed. Tell me regrouping against Pitt didn't help! I was there and saw that.

Kelly could have three or four boxed up and ready to go at qb this year. What are opponents going to do?

not sure where this assertation that GK is a "Pro Style QB" when he never played in such a system in his career to date.

I always thought the ratings services lumped him into this category which cost him some overall in the ratings game. I think in conversation, someone may, to make a valid point want to contrast him from Everett Golson. It is true, apparently he moves more like a dual threat quarterback but he is tall and has the natural tools to stand in the pocket. What I think Mike is saying is that Gunner has the tools, and is a throw first quarterback, which is really what Everett is too, and that makes Gunner a good fit. Throw to strike first, then if need be make something happen with your feet.

And stllnd, I agree with you. The timing is stupid, so much that I would have thought it a knee-jerk reaction that got out of hand.

 

[Emcee77]

I bet the lion has a better 3-cone.

Not to mention a better shuttle ... Mel Kiper has the lion going mid second round ... gazelle will be a second day pick

 

[rikkitikki08]

Being 3rd on the depth chart as a redshirt freshman is impressive and chances are he could jumped TR to move into the #2 spot. In my opinion the kid just doesnt want to be at ND anymore

 

[dublinirish]

Being 3rd on the depth chart as a redshirt freshman is impressive and chances are he could jumped TR to move into the #2 spot. In my opinion the kid just doesnt want to be at ND anymore

and perhaps he never really wanted to be here in the first place. Seems like he wasn't ready to leave home and go to college and by staying instate at ND he was able to ease the transition.

 

[kmoose]

BGIF has me so inspired, for get Keil and Rees, I'm about to try out for QB!

Careful....... he gave the same speech to a guy named Custer.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

The only thing I have trouble sussing is why now.

I see no upside at all for Kiel in quitting before spring practice, before he has a chance to even compete for the job, just because he's told that Rees is ahead of him on the depth chart. If he's still No. 3 on April 21, than by all means, look around and God bless. But leaving now just makes it look like QB1 of the Class of 2012 doesn't have the sack to fight for the job with a weak-armed senior and a green true freshman.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but unless there's something else going on here, it appears he's doing it to himself. If nothing else, Gunner, take the 15 practices and get a little exposure to a monster pass rush and top-flight DBs. It'll serve you well when you land at Ball State.

For him, it's playing time somewhere else, and getting into another school in time. It's his subjective valuation of competing at Notre Dame for a job when he is at the 3 spot, while also putting a value on the likelihood of him moving ahead in the depth chart relative to the players ahead of him. This is all compared to the possibility of transferring to another school and possibly being higher on the depth chart, while comparing THAT to whoever may be ahead of him on that depth chart.

Obviously, his subjective valuation led him to going with the latter.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Obviously, his subjective valuation led him to going with the latter.

I think you're giving him too much credit here. It appears to have been a reactionary decision on Kiel's behalf, which is why the staff suggested he mull it over during Spring Break. Here's hoping he realizes that competing in spring camp and potentially taking over the #2 spot at ND is a much better position to be in than transferring to a MAC school and walking into the starter's role.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

I think you're giving him too much credit here. It appears to have been a reactionary decision on Kiel's behalf, which is why the staff suggested he mull it over during Spring Break. Here's hoping he realizes that competing in spring camp and potentially taking over the #2 spot at ND is a much better position to be in than transferring to a MAC school and walking into the starter's role.

True. By subjective valuation I mean his own personal values. Whether it was logical or not I'm not sure. I agree it was reactionary and would vary based on the type of individual. I don't want to make an assumption that GK is weak, timid, whatever, b/c I think he has the potential to be a damn good football player. But I think there would be other QB's at the same skill level who might choose to try and "rise to the occasion" at being the number 3 spot.

I've spoken personally to a former walk-on that eventually quit ND football and went somewhere else. He told me that he left because "BK plays kids off each other in the locker room," and he didn't like it. I took it as the kid didn't have a competitive bone in his body and couldn't handle it. I've refrained from putting it on the board b/c I didn't see it relevant, but it pissed me off when the kid said it to me.

 

[Emcee77]

Jason's still hearing only MAC-level schools mentioned as possible destinations for Gunner.

Possibly interesting note: Jason later added that his source on this is someone close to Gunner (in other words, not the schools themselves or any third party with knowledge of the situation such as an ND coach). Makes me wonder if Gunner is only interested in MAC level schools, regardless of whether major-conference programs are interested in him.

I guess I could see that. Maybe wants to go the Joe Flacco route ... go somewhere where he is guaranteed to play. If that's his thinking, I guess I get the move. He COULD win the job at ND, but it's far from guaranteed; it's not even likely till his 5th year, with the edge Golson has now. Gunner just doesn't want to play those odds, I guess.

 

[IrishLion]

Why wouldn't it be brilliant on Martin and Kelly's part to have two capable quarterbacks of contrasting style as a (true) change up? I mean we can see how much it improved Tommy's game performance to negate teams being able to prepare for his weaknesses. I mean I know Tommy worked hard to improve his game, but he had certain weaknesses, that in preparing for other teams were able to very negatively affect, almost control his performance in his last half dozen (or so) starts.

Teams don't have the luxury to do that when a player is second team, and a coach can call a limited number of plays to a qb's strength, away from his weakness as well. Wasn't this part of Kelly's offensive strength at Cinci? Didn't this even make Everett better last season, when Tommy could come in if needed. Tell me regrouping against Pitt didn't help! I was there and saw that.

Kelly could have three or four boxed up and ready to go at qb this year. What are opponents going to do?

The problem I see with the "change up" system is that Rees is now the only non-mobile QB on the team... and Golson is mobile, but he will still always be a pass-first QB. It just so happens that he can kill teams with his feet when they fall asleep or when things break down. At this point, if Golson continues on an upward trend and develops a strong mental game to go with his laser-rocket arm and quick feet, it will be pointless to "change up" to a non-mobile QB, because they bring nothing else to the table.

Last year, it worked because Rees had the necessary edge in the "experience" department to put defenses off balance. However, moving forward, I expect EG to do just fine with the mental aspect of the game, meaning Rees's experience and ability to change plays will be a moot point.

Also, for the bolded part, Kelly never actually ran a 2-QB system at UC. It's a common misconception. The QB position suffered from terrible injury luck while BK was at UC. He lost Mauk, played Grutza and Pike. The next year he lost Grutza, played Pike, Collaros and Anderson. Lost Pike the third year, played Collaros. Certainly there were contrasting styles of QB at UC (Pike and Mauk were loosely "pocket," while Grutza, Anderson and Collaros were mobile), but BK rarely used the "change of pace" system. Usually, a new guy came in if another guy got hurt. It was "next man in," not a strategy.

 

[Emcee77]

There is a rumor on the BGI board that Gunner has decided to stay for spring practice. In response, the staff (Jason and Lou) are saying that they have heard no such thing, but it wouldn't surprise them. Both Jason and Lou are saying in no uncertain terms that they don't understand why Gunner wouldn't at least go through spring ball, as he'll be on campus anyway.

Lou pointed out that Chris Stewart was going to transfer in the spring of 2007, before going home and talking it over with his family during spring break.

 

[irishpat183]

There is a rumor on the BGI board that Gunner has decided to stay for spring practice. In response, the staff (Jason and Lou) are saying that they have heard no such thing, but it wouldn't surprise them. Both Jason and Lou are saying in no uncertain terms that they don't understand why Gunner wouldn't at least go through spring ball, as he'll be on campus anyway.

Lou pointed out that Chris Stewart was going to transfer in the spring of 2007, before going home and talking it over with his family during spring break.

This whole thing is insane...especially with the way his recruiting went.

I mean, what if he doesn't win the starting job at the end of spring? Does he transfer then? Is Kelly pressured to give him an edge because he's threatening to transfer?

I'd tell him that we'd love to have him if he wants to stay and be a positive contributor...but to get his bags packed and get lost if he keeps talking of transferring.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

There is a rumor on the BGI board that Gunner has decided to stay for spring practice. In response, the staff (Jason and Lou) are saying that they have heard no such thing, but it wouldn't surprise them. Both Jason and Lou are saying in no uncertain terms that they don't understand why Gunner wouldn't at least go through spring ball, as he'll be on campus anyway.

Lou pointed out that Chris Stewart was going to transfer in the spring of 2007, before going home and talking it over with his family during spring break.

Exactly! Good post. Hope it is so, and sounds good and right to me.

The problem I see with the "change up" system is that Rees is now the only non-mobile QB on the team... and Golson is mobile, but he will still always be a pass-first QB. It just so happens that he can kill teams with his feet when they fall asleep or when things break down. At this point, if Golson continues on an upward trend and develops a strong mental game to go with his laser-rocket arm and quick feet, it will be pointless to "change up" to a non-mobile QB, because they bring nothing else to the table.

Last year, it worked because Rees had the necessary edge in the "experience" department to put defenses off balance. However, moving forward, I expect EG to do just fine with the mental aspect of the game, meaning Rees's experience and ability to change plays will be a moot point.

Also, for the bolded part, Kelly never actually ran a 2-QB system at UC. It's a common misconception. The QB position suffered from terrible injury luck while BK was at UC. He lost Mauk, played Grutza and Pike. The next year he lost Grutza, played Pike, Collaros and Anderson. Lost Pike the third year, played Collaros. Certainly there were contrasting styles of QB at UC (Pike and Mauk were loosely "pocket," while Grutza, Anderson and Collaros were mobile), but BK rarely used the "change of pace" system. Usually, a new guy came in if another guy got hurt. It was "next man in," not a strategy.

Great post! Good points!

I still think after having in handed to my original post, that if a team knows that we have more than one quarteback that can play, it does a lot to decrease the efficiency of preparing for either.

 

[WakeUpEchoes]

There is a rumor on the BGI board that Gunner has decided to stay for spring practice. In response, the staff (Jason and Lou) are saying that they have heard no such thing, but it wouldn't surprise them. Both Jason and Lou are saying in no uncertain terms that they don't understand why Gunner wouldn't at least go through spring ball, as he'll be on campus anyway.

Lou pointed out that Chris Stewart was going to transfer in the spring of 2007, before going home and talking it over with his family during spring break.

What...

I thought he cleaned out his locker...

Good luck to you Gunner, wherever you end up.

 

[Emcee77]

What...

I thought he cleaned out his locker...

Good luck to you Gunner, wherever you end up.

I believe he did, but the BGI guys confirmed today that nothing has been signed yet. Gunner is taking spring break to think about it, as the SBT reported.

 

[BGIF]

What...

I thought he cleaned out his locker...

Good luck to you Gunner, wherever you end up.

The Observer reported he cleaned out his locker a week ago. Since then it was reported that the coaching staff told him to use the break to think things through. There's been nothing definitive.

 

[vuirish]

Will there be a vbook bet on whether Gunner's page gets 1million views before he transfers?

 

[BGIF]

...

Lou pointed out that Chris Stewart was going to transfer in the spring of 2007, before going home and talking it over with his family during spring break.

This is a routine situation that before the internet usually didn't get any ink because few if anybody knew about it. Holtz moved Denson to CB as a Fr. Denson said he was going home. Denson got switched back to RB and became NDs all-time leading rusher. Tony Driver thought he was a good enough RB to challenge immediately. Davie moved him to Safety. He left campus and went home in a stew. As assistant went and got him back in the fold. There have been many others through the years.

Zach Frazer didn't have Kiel's lofty rating but he came to ND cause Charlie told him he would get a legitimate shot. After Spring Ball Frazer was ranked #4 on the Depth Chart. He claimed he wasn't evaluated fairly and he transferred.

He actually wasn't treated fairly nor was he a bona Fidel #4. Clausen had surgery for bone chips and was shelved. Weis was enamored with the athletic Demitrious Jones ( with a bum shoulder) in the spread as a change of pace to a pro attack which would feature a healthy Clausen down the road. Weis's love affair with Double D and the spread lasted all of one half of one game. Jones subsequently missed the game bus without telling anyone. Then he transferred.

Frazer had the presence of mind to fight through Spring Ball and then transfer. He had some success and some struggles at UConn but got a day of revenge. Jones snuck out the back door got moved to LB and faded away.

LoVecchio bolted after a record setting freshman season under Willingham. Christian Olsen didn't stay around long enough for classes to begin. Randy Kinder didn't transfer but he spent a lot of time in Holtz's doghouse. Lots of guys have issues with PT and Depth Charts. Some leave, some grumble but gut it out, others like Battle, Palmer, et al adapt. Some coaches, HCs and assistants, handle the situations more successfully than others.

 

[BeauBenken]

Started hearing his ideas of transferring to a MAC school and immediately I thought of Ball St as his likely landing spot.

The guy who broke Gunner to ND goes to BSU. He's good friends with Gunner, that's why he knew. And while I was attending a clinic at BSU, the QB coach talked about how he had worked with Gunner before so he has a preexisting relationship with some of the staff.

Just saying.

 

[Irish YJ]

If not UT or IU, any school in IN would make me happy. MAC QBs have had pretty decent success taking the next step.

 

[PraetorianND]

Gunner should go to Harvad (not joking). At this point everyone knows who he is so he will have national recognition. He will start right away, if he puts up good numbers and has good film he'll make it pro, and get a phenomenal education. Why not?

 

[Irish YJ]

The talent, or lack of talent around him at Harvard, the lack of TV coverage, etc.. all are reasons why not. Not saying it's a bad personal choice, just not a good "want to be NFL" choice.

 

[PraetorianND]

The talent, or lack of talent around him at Harvard, the lack of TV coverage, etc.. all are reasons why not. Not saying it's a bad personal choice, just not a good "want to be NFL" choice.

I would argue that going to a MAC school is the same as going to a school like Harvard (or Delaware). If he's good he's good and NFL scouts will see it despite what school he plays for. May as well go to the school that will give you the best degree too. Also, with Gunners publicity scouts already know who he is. I'm sure that they'll be following him wherever he goes (if he's any good).

My main concern would be quality of coaching more than anything else.

 

[dublinirish]

Started hearing his ideas of transferring to a MAC school and immediately I thought of Ball St as his likely landing spot.

The guy who broke Gunner to ND goes to BSU. He's good friends with Gunner, that's why he knew. And while I was attending a clinic at BSU, the QB coach talked about how he had worked with Gunner before so he has a preexisting relationship with some of the staff.

Just saying.

Brian Hardin is in Muncie now so theres also that connection

 

[dublinirish]

Very good point to consider.

also known as sam young syndrome, spend 4 years playing college ball and develop very little.

 

[Fbolt]

I think you're giving him too much credit here. It appears to have been a reactionary decision on Kiel's behalf, which is why the staff suggested he mull it over during Spring Break. Here's hoping he realizes that competing in spring camp and potentially taking over the #2 spot at ND is a much better position to be in than transferring to a MAC school and walking into the starter's role.

I also hope reactionary.

If he goes MAC-I'd like to see him play for the

 

[Fbolt]

also known as sam young syndrome, spend 4 years playing college ball and develop very little.

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