'13 IN ATH Jaylon Smith (Notre Dame Man & Graduate)

[GoIrish41]

For everybody, once and for all, Jaylon has not played a down of college football yet. And you all have it as a forgone conclusion that he will be the best ever.

I didn't see Danny one bit less effective than the rest of the ND defense, and most of the problem was an epic tactical failure rivaling Navy '10. I think it is an extreme disservice to lay the blame for the NC game at the feet of anyone but the staff. (I love the staff because they got us there, and remember how positive a homer I was labeled three months ago?)

I really mean it. Jaylon hasn't done anything in college, yet. If you want a cautionary tale, watch a tape of the Leurs-Whitmer game. Jaylon was in a class by himself but completely neutralized by a team with tactical superiority. The Whitmer team ran where he wasn't. And keyed on him when he was in the game on offense, thereby held him to one pass reception for about thirty yards. The kid could have torn up if they would have moved him around on defense, and set up his running game by playing to others early, and just not relying on him when they were in the hole. The point? Much of the factors of his success are out of his hands. Expecting the world out of him as a freshman is dysfunctional and unfair.

agree with everything in this post.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Bogs, you got a crazy man crush on Spond.

I just like the name Danny.


Oh yeah, and the fact that he won the state championship for Columbine Highschool in 2008.

Oh yeah, and that some one that was partially paralyzed, with no indication why, would fight and work to walk right away and be back in pads playing championship football in a few weeks, ignoring attention and late night fears, to help his team out in any way possible.

 

[Booslum31]

I just like the name Danny.


Oh yeah, and the fact that he won the state championship for Columbine Highschool in 2008.

Oh yeah, and that some one that was partially paralyzed, with no indication why, would fight and work to walk right away and be back in pads playing championship football in a few weeks, ignoring attention and late night fears, to help his team out in any way possible.

That's all good stuff...good job Bogs

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Next season we will return three out of four starting linebackers all of whom were plenty good [The Fox/Calabreese tandem had as many tackles, give or take, as Manti did]. Looking at the roster, it would take a brave man to toss Spond, Shembo, or Fox to the bench. Spond has a high quality backup [Councell]. Shembo has a high potential backup [Williams]. If Carlo stays [debatable], then Fox has a high quality backup. Three out of four spots with two-deep experience and high quality proven playing ability.

Up steps Grace, who to every sign is legit, and groomed. In comes Jaylon, who to every sign is the most talented athlete of the lot. That's eight for eight spots on the two-deep. (I am deliberately "forgetting about" Randolph, Deeb, Moore, Rabasa, and Okwara --- the latter of whom I am strongly hoping develops into an Earth-moving mauler of a DE. I am forgetting about them, because if I don't I'm more confused than I am now.)

WHERE do the eight guys go as to their primary positions? If you keep all the current studs where they are, then Jaylon becomes a MIKE --- doesn't sound right, though, does it? If Jaylon goes CAT, then Ishaq actually "disappears". MAYBE that actually happens if Ishaq doesn't get moving, but you would think to bet against it. If Jaylon goes DOG, then he's second team to Spond unless Danny moves to WILL, and Fox becomes second team, or he moves to challenge Grace. Or Councell moves to WILL or MIKE [WILL seems better --- this perfectly interchangeable stuff about WILL and MIKE might be dreamwork ideal, but it is BS].

This is FAR too complex to unravel with no more than we know. But it's off-season, so:

1). Shembo backed up by Smith or Okwara [Williams loses his job];
2). Spond backed up by Smith or Councell;
3). Fox backed up by Councell or Calabreese [Randolph if Calabreese not back];
4]. Grace backed up by Calabreese [Deeb, not Moore, if no Calabreese].

Starters: Shembo/ Fox/ Grace/ Spond ["Dance with the girl you brought to the prom"].
Jaylon Smith plays a bunch at both OLB positions.
Williams gets specialty minutes at DE; Moore plays "Filer".
Calabreese probably returns [Kelly is heavy about that sort of decision], and backs up both ILB positions.

So you are saying (basically) moving Williams to End for pass rush, four man front Spond/Okwara, Grace/Moore, Councel/Fox & Co, Shembo/Smith?

 

[Bogtrotter07]

That's all good stuff...good job Bogs

Give me the guy that will walk into the dark room with his bare hands hearing the shake of the rattle, every time!

You guys ever meet a tunnel rat? Now that is courage. Danny is that courageous. You that have not been faced with that kind of adversity just don't know. The reason I mention this is because that is as important of a character trait, imo, as we were talking about with Jaylon and Greg Mattison in the last couple pages. That is championship stuff on Danny's part, and if he completes a successful college career next year, (prayers for), he will get drafted much higher than anyone would have guessed, and everyone will wonder why.

 

[NDinL.A.]

For everybody, once and for all, Jaylon has not played a down of college football yet. And you all have it as a forgone conclusion that he will be the best ever.

Um, I guess you skipped the part where I said this:

(And I realize h.s. rankings don't mean much and AA camps/games don't either, but that's all I can compare since that's all Jaylon has done.)

And where I said this:

I love Spond to death (and I think he'll hold onto his spot all year personally)

You're picking and choosing what I said instead of focusing on that particular argument, in which you said Spond is every bit of the freak that Jaylon is, which simply isn't true. All I can look at for Jaylon is what he has done at camps, AA practices and games, and hs games, and EVERYTHING he has done blows away what Danny did at the same age.

You're making it sound as if I said that Jaylon will start over Danny next year, which is completely false. Stick to the debate, please. You're getting it twisted - I LOVE Danny Spond and I said that all year.

I didn't see Danny one bit less effective than the rest of the ND defense, and most of the problem was an epic tactical failure rivaling Navy '10. I think it is an extreme disservice to lay the blame for the NC game at the feet of anyone but the staff. (I love the staff because they got us there, and remember how positive a homer I was labeled three months ago?)

Yes, he was. He was more ineffective than Nix and really the entire defensive line. Those guys did their jobs for the most part, especially Nix, who was absolutely filthy (getting held on every play). The other 8 were ineffective, Danny included. And sorry, freak athletes DO NOT get dominated like the ND defense did that night (unless they just got catfished in one of the most sick, cruel diabolical ways possible). Nix is a freak, and he killed it.

The tactics weren't even close to as bad as the Navy game. Bad? ABSOLUTELY, but the players were the ones missing tons of tackles, especially behind the LOS that would changed the game drastically. And watch the game again - Spond (and many others) got swallowed by the Bama team. And that's my point - we need more Jaylons with that type of athleticism on the field to compete with the Bamas of the world. Cause the defense we threw out there didn't cut, no matter how great they played all year (and I was as big a fan of theirs as anyone).

I really mean it. Jaylon hasn't done anything in college, yet. If you want a cautionary tale, watch a tape of the Leurs-Whitmer game. Jaylon was in a class by himself but completely neutralized by a team with tactical superiority. The Whitmer team ran where he wasn't. And keyed on him when he was in the game on offense, thereby held him to one pass reception for about thirty yards. The kid could have torn up if they would have moved him around on defense, and set up his running game by playing to others early, and just not relying on him when they were in the hole. The point? Much of the factors of his success are out of his hands. Expecting the world out of him as a freshman is dysfunctional and unfair.

LOL - because me saying the kid will not redshirt means I expect the world out of him. Read my post again. My 2 points: He's a bigger 'freak' of an athlete than Spond, and he won't redshirt. I honestly don't know where you're getting the rest from, because I never said all that in my post.

This is exactly what I said.

No, you said this: "Kelly loves red-shirting guys of monumental talent, to get maximum development."

If he LOVED to do it, he'd do it a ton more. You don't think Ishaq needed time??? No, Kelly knew he needed to get him on the field, cause a talent like that doesn't stay 5 years, and he knew Ishaq would have transferred had he not played the homesick kid. Name one kid of monumental talent other than Nix that he redshirted (and that was because Nix was so dang out of shape he couldn't even last a practice). I'll give you Kiel, and that's it. All the guys I mentioned didn't redshirt.

Truth is, Kelly does not love to redshirt kids of 'monumental' talent. He loves to play them. Jaylon won't redshirt, trust me.

I'm interested in your response because you quoted me but then responded to arguments I didn't even make most of your post...

 

[Old Man Mike]

Not that my opinions make any difference, but since I put my pessimism about Ishaq out there, here's my slow-news-day view:

1). I have yet to see anything which says to me that Ishaq is comfortable ANYWHERE at linebacker [similarly to my feelings about Niklas; thank God we've found a GREAT place for his talents]. I believe that Ishaq was a nightmare pass-rusher in high school and that's what he likes to do --- plus that's somewhat "simple" on obvious downs.

2). Diaco does seem to like a four-man front on some obvious passing downs. The Prince and Ishaq were both on the field for some of those last season with I believe Stephon inside with either Lou or Kap. Diaco could do the same thing, and more regularly, this year.

3). If Diaco is doing that on obvious passing downs, then he wants fast, space-covering linebackers on the field in the other positions. That's where both Danny and Jaylon come in. Suddenly we have two super coverage guys at OLBs with just one ILB on the field. Whether that ILB is Grace or Fox would depend upon the mobility of the QB [I think you want a werewolf at work if you have to "spy"], and how Grace comes along at coverage in the middle.

4). on regular downs, I think it would be Spond/ Grace/ Fox/ Shembo [to be ready for the run game], and the above scenario an entirely different pass defense "package". Substitutes could replace any of the four linebackers on these regular downs, and this is where Councell and Smith would get more time.

Fortunately, as we say in West Virginia: "Diaco: He Smarterin' I Are."

 

[scUM Hater]

So, what most are saying is:

Jaylon is Usain Bolt fast, The next Ron Powlus with 4 heismans, will break every posssible record at ND.

Sounds good to me. Can't wait to watch.


I can't remember the position name Slaughter played in some of the games, Navy inparticular, I see Jaylon playing that type of position next year.

 

[scUM Hater]

Not that my opinions make any difference, but since I put my pessimism about Ishaq out there, here's my slow-news-day view:

1). I have yet to see anything which says to me that Ishaq is comfortable ANYWHERE at linebacker [similarly to my feelings about Niklas; thank God we've found a GREAT place for his talents]. I believe that Ishaq was a nightmare pass-rusher in high school and that's what he likes to do --- plus that's somewhat "simple" on obvious downs.

2). Diaco does seem to like a four-man front on some obvious passing downs. The Prince and Ishaq were both on the field for some of those last season with I believe Stephon inside with either Lou or Kap. Diaco could do the same thing, and more regularly, this year.

3). If Diaco is doing that on obvious passing downs, then he wants fast, space-covering linebackers on the field in the other positions. That's where both Danny and Jaylon come in. Suddenly we have two super coverage guys at OLBs with just one ILB on the field. Whether that ILB is Grace or Fox would depend upon the mobility of the QB [I think you want a werewolf at work if you have to "spy"], and how Grace comes along at coverage in the middle.

4). on regular downs, I think it would be Spond/ Grace/ Fox/ Shembo [to be ready for the run game], and the above scenario an entirely different pass defense "package". Substitutes could replace any of the four linebackers on these regular downs, and this is where Councell and Smith would get more time.

Fortunately, as we say in West Virginia: "Diaco: He Smarterin' I Are."

I am just glad you didn't use Kalamazoo as your reference here.

 

[Irish Insanity]

I really have nothing of substance to add, and everything discussed seems to be far more than I can grasp half the time. But I just wanted to state how proud I am that I just read multiple pages completely about the recruit and not some other BS. Love it.

 

[Grahambo]

I really have nothing of substance to add, and everything discussed seems to be far more than I can grasp half the time. But I just wanted to state how proud I am that I just read multiple pages completely about the recruit and not some other BS. Love it.

You have as much substance on this subject as most of us so always add your opinion.

 

[Irish Insanity]

You have as much substance on this subject as most of us so always add your opinion.

That being said, he is my favorite defensive recruit of all time. As a player and a person. I expect one day his profile will hold the 'Notre Dame Man' caption. I don't care where he plays on the field as long as he plays early and often. Use him while we have him, as he won't be here forever. He seems to be capable to shoulder the leader role, and he's not even on campus yet.

 

[scUM Hater]

Can't wait to look back on this thread in three years and see who is right/wrong. At this point everything is just speculation.

 

[Domina Nostra]

I'm not sure I get the hang up on Jaylon's 40 time or lowering expectations. Everyone that watched him play says he is a sick athlete. All the kids that played with him or against him say he's dominant. He has football speed regardless of his time that's just undeniable. The talk about him is pretty unique. Some rare kids are really that good. I loved Spond's tape but don't remember any similar hype.

I agree that either Williams or Okwara is going to be a DE. I assumed Okwara because I thought of Jaylon as a DOG. But it makes sense to move Williams to DE if Okwara can really play DOG and Jaulon wants to be a CAT.

 

[yankeeND]

I'm not sure I get the hang up on Jaylon's 40 time or lowering expectations. Everyone that watched him play says he is a sick athlete. All the kids that played with him or against him say he's dominant. He has football speed regardless of his time that's just undeniable. The talk about him is pretty unique. Some rare kids are really that good. I loved Spond's tape but don't remember any similar hype.

I agree that either Williams or Okwara is going to be a DE. I assumed Okwara because I thought of Jaylon as a DOG. But it makes sense to move Williams to DE if Okwara can really play DOG and Jaulon wants to be a CAT.

I would like to see both Ishaq and Romeo move to DE. I think the added depth alone would be beneficial. I also think they would be very productive. Then with Shembo being in his final year ov eligibility, Smith could help by spelling Shembo and then take over the starting role in 14'. At least that how I will do it on playstation.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not sure I get the hang up on Jaylon's 40 time or lowering expectations. Everyone that watched him play says he is a sick athlete. All the kids that played with him or against him say he's dominant. He has football speed regardless of his time that's just undeniable. The talk about him is pretty unique. Some rare kids are really that good. I loved Spond's tape but don't remember any similar hype.

I agree that either Williams or Okwara is going to be a DE. I assumed Okwara because I thought of Jaylon as a DOG. But it makes sense to move Williams to DE if Okwara can really play DOG and Jaulon wants to be a CAT.

The point I was trying to make on Jaylon's 40 is that NO ONE actually runs 4.4s... and that running in the 4.5s as a LB is still insanely good and better than a lot of DBs/WRs. I think Jaylon plays on almost all passing downs as a DOG linebacker next year.... maybe CAT to have two players capable of great coverage on the field... but I think you'll see the staff frequently pulling out Spond and putting in Jaylon for a couple reasons.

First, his coverage ability is probably going to be so good you can put him in and not have to worry as much about him getting lost as you would with other first year players.

Second, Jaylon can do something Spond can't. And that's rush the passer. So you can line up Jaylon like he's coming to rush.... and then pull him off into coverage. Or you can have him creep down late and bring the pain. He's just got so much flexibility it's scary. It's what I thought Ben Councell would do... but I think Jaylon is just a more agile/athletic version of Ben.

 

[STLDomer]

I would like to see both Ishaq and Romeo move to DE. I think the added depth alone would be beneficial. I also think they would be very productive. Then with Shembo being in his final year ov eligibility, Smith could help by spelling Shembo and then take over the starting role in 14'. At least that how I will do it on playstation.

I agree with this if Jaylon plays CAT

If he plays DOG I think Romeo to DE, Ishaq stays at CAT, Councell to WILL

On the 40 time, thousands of kids did Nike SPARQ combines and something like only 19 kids ran sub 4.5. I think Jaylon runs mid/high 4.5 and that is awesome

 

[Luckylucci]

IMG Academy Preps Many For The Upcoming NFL Combine

Great article on 40 times. Basically one of the trainers says that he can shave .4 off of a players 40 time based on technique not actually increasing speed. If that is the case that leads me to believe that the 40 yard dash as a measure of speed is overrated. You can tell when a specific player has football speed by watching him play.

 

[STLDomer]

IMG Academy Preps Many For The Upcoming NFL Combine

Great article on 40 times. Basically one of the trainers says that he can shave .4 off of a players 40 time based on technique not actually increasing speed. If that is the case that leads me to believe that the 40 yard dash as a measure of speed is overrated. You can tell when a specific player has football speed by watching him play.

Yup

A guy like Mike Mitchell comes to mind, not saying he isn't a great LB but you could tell at The Opening he prepared for all the SPARQ stuff a lot. AA indirectly called him out I think saying something like he was only a "combine king" (AA was getting slack from OSU fans for decommiting saying Mitchell was better anyways)

 

[scUM Hater]

Give me football speed over 40 time any day. You have to add preparation, instinct, and some luck into football speed. And if you can wrap up and tackle, u will become dominant.

 

[NDdomer2]

late to this party but the gentlemen who did his post with the technicolor dreamcoat that mentioned whitmer neutralizing Jaylon tactically. isn't that a kid doing more than his job for a team. if you are forcing a team to completely change what they have done all season to avoid one single individual out of 11 its going to be hard to win. in high school sure good plan, at big time division one you just made it oh so easy. one guy changed everything without stepping on the field.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

late to this party but the gentlemen who did his post with the technicolor dreamcoat that mentioned whitmer neutralizing Jaylon tactically. isn't that a kid doing more than his job for a team. if you are forcing a team to completely change what they have done all season to avoid one single individual out of 11 its going to be hard to win. in high school sure good plan, at big time division one you just made it oh so easy. one guy changed everything without stepping on the field.

In a word the kid was being sacrificed with no apparent gain for his team: on offense they only put him in on third and long, making giving or passing him the ball a forgone conclusion. On offense they audibles all game long, motioning to his side, running or passing to the other. It was awful. Whitmer teed off on Jaylon all game long. It was sad to see how bad the Whitmer defense cheated. Jaylon couldn't run past 7 or 8 players every time! He was wasted in his first coaches last game. Look at tapes from later in the season and compare them if you doubt the veracity of my comments. Yes you can waste a player, for a game, or a career.

 

[NDhoosier]

late to this party but the gentlemen who did his post with the technicolor dreamcoat that mentioned whitmer neutralizing Jaylon tactically. isn't that a kid doing more than his job for a team. if you are forcing a team to completely change what they have done all season to avoid one single individual out of 11 its going to be hard to win. in high school sure good plan, at big time division one you just made it oh so easy. one guy changed everything without stepping on the field.

^ that is what I was going to say. If a team runs away from you while you are on defense, how is that a bad thing for Jaylon... maybe his highlight tapes will be shorter, but that is the Ultimate respect. In college, there will be good players around Jaylon which means Jaylon will be able to use his dominating ability more often, your argument that Jaylon was 'nullified' because the opponent ran the other way against average high schools kids is not very persuasive.

As for offense, if a team dedicates 11 men to shutting you down, that is also the ultimate sign of respect.

The difference at ND is that Jaylon will have talent around him on the defense so a team cannot be one-dimensional and constantly run away from Jaylon.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

Maybe it wasn't the best example.

And the words I used was "cautionary tale", what I was talking about was expecting too much.

To clear everything up:

Jaylon is a freakish talent from his measurable alone.

Jaylon has a great birth date.

Jaylon cannot and will not start ahead of a senior with three years of experience, that is a far better athlete than for which I have heard anyone give him credit.

I personally believe that because of his athletic talent and character which is phenomenal he will be a great success at Notre Dame, but I am reluctant to speak of it because of all the hard work that goes into it and all that can go wrong.

 

[Ironman8]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>ND is more than just football! Why wouldn't you want to be a Domer~~~</p>— Jaylon Smith (@JaeeSmiff9ENT) <a href="https://twitter.com/JaeeSmiff9ENT/status/298181955692929024">February 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
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Gets it.

 

[Who'saWildManNow]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>ND is more than just football! Why wouldn't you want to be a Domer~~~</p>— Jaylon Smith (@JaeeSmiff9ENT) <a href="https://twitter.com/JaeeSmiff9ENT/status/298181955692929024">February 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Gets it.

Lord, please make more Jaylon's.

 

[Kak7304]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>ND is more than just football! Why wouldn't you want to be a Domer~~~</p>— Jaylon Smith (@JaeeSmiff9ENT) <a href="https://twitter.com/JaeeSmiff9ENT/status/298181955692929024">February 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Gets it.

Love this kid. He's going to ND for all the right reasons and will be a great representative of the university.

 

[arrowryan]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p>On the clock at the Bk dreamin about my first Collegiate game being at home vs Temple ! Can not wait</p>— Jaylon Smith (@JaeeSmiff9ENT) <a href="https://twitter.com/JaeeSmiff9ENT/status/298157138344284160">February 3, 2013</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He also said this earlier

 

[IrishFBfanatic]

Maybe it wasn't the best example.

And the words I used was "cautionary tale", what I was talking about was expecting too much.

To clear everything up:

Jaylon is a freakish talent from his measurable alone.

Jaylon has a great birth date.

Jaylon cannot and will not start ahead of a senior with three years of experience, that is a far better athlete than for which I have heard anyone give him credit.

I personally believe that because of his athletic talent and character which is phenomenal he will be a great success at Notre Dame, but I am reluctant to speak of it because of all the hard work that goes into it and all that can go wrong.

Jaylon will not start. But Jaylon will be the most athletic linebacker on the roster the day he steps on campus. Spond is an athlete, but he's not on Smith's level athletically.
I also believe Jaylon will be the best linebacker on the roster in coverage from day one. Other than that, though...he struggles getting off blocks and will not be great against the run in his first year. He can blitz with his lightning fast first step, but he needs to get some practice against the big boys on the o-line.

No, he will not start. But there will be plenty of rotation and Jaylon will see lots of PT. Look for him in on passing downs and on a lot of special teams

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Maybe it wasn't the best example.

And the words I used was "cautionary tale", what I was talking about was expecting too much.

To clear everything up:

Jaylon is a freakish talent from his measurable alone.

Jaylon has a great birth date.

Jaylon cannot and will not start ahead of a senior with three years of experience, that is a far better athlete than for which I have heard anyone give him credit.

I personally believe that because of his athletic talent and character which is phenomenal he will be a great success at Notre Dame, but I am reluctant to speak of it because of all the hard work that goes into it and all that can go wrong.

I wasn't aware you knew the future.. can I get tomorrow's lottery numbers by chance?