Will ND Football Ever Become Elite?

[ickythump1225]

I don't think ND can ever go on a run like Alabama (seriously though, who can?) or even Clemson and FSU. ND will probably have to settle for NC consideration every 3 or 4 years and then 9-10 win seasons should be the goal other than that. We will never be able to recruit (for a number of reasons) like Alabama, Clemson, FSU, OSU, etc.

People bring up Stanford as our role model and that is a good idea, but how many titles have they won? How many NCG's have they played in? I'm not knocking them, but I don't consider them elite. I agree that they should be thought of as something attainable in South Bend, but I have a feeling many ND fans won't "settle" for that.

Realistically ND hasn't had sustained national title success since when...Ara? Lou, as great as he was, only won 1 title in 10 years. CFB has changed in so many ways since the true glory days of ND and it has changed in ways that do not benefit ND. It is what is, I'd rather compete for 9-10 wins a year and truly be in the hunt every 3 or 4 years than sell out try to replicate what Clemson, FSU, or Alabama has going on.

I don't think we have reached our full potential under BK and after 8 years I don't think we ever will, but BK has done a lot for the program. He's the best coach we've had since Lou hung'em up. I think BK has built a program that is successor (if we make the right hire) can take over and put some finishing touches on.

 

[dad4aa]

I don't think ND can ever go on a run like Alabama (seriously though, who can?) or even Clemson and FSU. ND will probably have to settle for NC consideration every 3 or 4 years and then 9-10 win seasons should be the goal other than that. We will never be able to recruit (for a number of reasons) like Alabama, Clemson, FSU, OSU, etc.

People bring up Stanford as our role model and that is a good idea, but how many titles have they won? How many NCG's have they played in? I'm not knocking them, but I don't consider them elite. I agree that they should be thought of as something attainable in South Bend, but I have a feeling many ND fans won't "settle" for that.

Realistically ND hasn't had sustained national title success since when...Ara? Lou, as great as he was, only won 1 title in 10 years. CFB has changed in so many ways since the true glory days of ND and it has changed in ways that do not benefit ND. It is what is, I'd rather compete for 9-10 wins a year and truly be in the hunt every 3 or 4 years than sell out try to replicate what Clemson, FSU, or Alabama has going on.

I don't think we have reached our full potential under BK and after 8 years I don't think we ever will, but BK has done a lot for the program. He's the best coach we've had since Lou hung'em up. I think BK has built a program that is successor (if we make the right hire) can take over and put some finishing touches on.

Great post! I was trying to post something similar but you said it much better than I did. Hoping we can still be two of USC, Stanford and Miami. Would still allow us to finish 10-2 and get to a good bowl game. Have four games prior to USC. Will be looking good if we are 5-1 coming out of our bye week.

 

[ulukinatme]

It's depressing how many Top 25 match-ups we've lost in recent years. Where's the magic? Where's the spirit?

 

[koonja]

It's depressing how many Top 25 match-ups we've lost in recent years. Where's the magic? Where's the spirit?

ND football has become the cheerleader on the sideline of real college football. We cheer cheer then take up the butt when a real team comes up.

ND football is embarrassing and frankly, disinteresting right now.

 

[NorthDakota]

No, he's not Catholic "like Urban and Saban"...

https://www.archbalt.org/john-harbaugh-discusses-faith-in-adversity/
On This Rock: Harbaugh Brothers Talk About Their Catholic Faith
Ravens Head Coach Harbaugh, Faith on and Off the Field - Living Faith - Home & Family - News - Catholic Online

Did you neg rep me on purpose...for making a joke about prominent Catholic coaches not coming to ND?

I'd love for him to come to ND and kill it.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Random thought: Notre Dame has lost its chance to be an Alabama or Ohio State or maybe FSU type "always there" elite program ironically due to the play we originated that ultimately completely changed football.

Notre Dame's Always-There heyday was the (long) era of power football. That era had cleverness in systems, innovations, and adjustments, but it did not require all-over-the-field speed. Along came Miami (FL) and then Florida State and suddenly Speed triumphed over sheer size. The NFL began to wake up to this and then the SEC. The B!G and Notre Dame did not. For a while we could compete despite the changing game --- for Notre Dame this awareness that the game had shifted under our feet took a long time (when I came to IE just a few years ago, posters were still skeptical about emphasizing speed defenders rather than rhinos always wanting people to beef up on defense, when the rest of the country was going for speed and ground coverage.)

Passing attacks and running quarterbacks have taken over. Defenses must try to check that with fast and athletically violent DBacks and linebackers and pass rushers. And in the recruiting wars for these vital pieces, Notre Dame lost out to the South and some other parts of the country. Why? We know why. We know that Notre Dame's entry requirements VASTLY shrink that particular talent pool. Could Notre Dame tinker together the occasional elite group of defenders and make a run (assuming no significant injuries)? Yes, that's possible. Is it likely that Notre Dame could yearly stock the roster with such players three deep and resemble Alabama, OSU, FSU? I can't imagine that there are that many "ND is my dream school" players that have gotten through even the second language requirement in High School let alone the other "must haves." .... Stanford? No; not comparable and not always-there elite --- plus it exists in California.

So, despite being an optimist-plus on ND football, annually elite? Can't see it. Partially done in by the play Rockne invented.

 

[NDRock]

Random thought: Notre Dame has lost its chance to be an Alabama or Ohio State or maybe FSU type "always there" elite program ironically due to the play we originated that ultimately completely changed football.

Notre Dame's Always-There heyday was the (long) era of power football. That era had cleverness in systems, innovations, and adjustments, but it did not require all-over-the-field speed. Along came Miami (FL) and then Florida State and suddenly Speed triumphed over sheer size. The NFL began to wake up to this and then the SEC. The B!G and Notre Dame did not. For a while we could compete despite the changing game --- for Notre Dame this awareness that the game had shifted under our feet took a long time (when I came to IE just a few years ago, posters were still skeptical about emphasizing speed defenders rather than rhinos always wanting people to beef up on defense, when the rest of the country was going for speed and ground coverage.)

Passing attacks and running quarterbacks have taken over. Defenses must try to check that with fast and athletically violent DBacks and linebackers and pass rushers. And in the recruiting wars for these vital pieces, Notre Dame lost out to the South and some other parts of the country. Why? We know why. We know that Notre Dame's entry requirements VASTLY shrink that particular talent pool. Could Notre Dame tinker together the occasional elite group of defenders and make a run (assuming no significant injuries)? Yes, that's possible. Is it likely that Notre Dame could yearly stock the roster with such players three deep and resemble Alabama, OSU, FSU? I can't imagine that there are that many "ND is my dream school" players that have gotten through even the second language requirement in High School let alone the other "must haves." .... Stanford? No; not comparable and not always-there elite --- plus it exists in California.

So, despite being an optimist-plus on ND football, annually elite? Can't see it. Partially done in by the play Rockne invented.

The thing is, we're not even discussing being an Alabama. We're nowhere close to their level. Since the 1993 season (23 seasons), we've had one season where we lost less than 3 games. That stat is so mind blowing that it doesn't make sense. You're talking about "always there" elite when most would settle for "once every 5 years of less than 3 losses". All the excuses in the world don't justify the performance of this program since the SOB from BC kicked that field goal.

 

[JT_IRISH]

It's depressing how many Top 25 match-ups we've lost in recent years. Where's the magic? Where's the spirit?

^^^^ THIS

 

[irishff1014]

Imo no. There is only 3 or 4 teams I would call elite. Bama,Clemson,Osu,Fsu.

 

[irishtrain]

What Lax said. Bama was looking pretty bad between Stallings and Saban. Michigan was bad between Carr and Harbaugh. Notre Dame has just had a couple more whiffs than those teams and has hung on to BK for a season (hopefully just one) too long. Find the right guy and he can build this program to one of the best in the nation. The challenges are real but exaggerated, it is not impossible the right coach can definitely turn it around.

There is no RIGHT coach and the use of Alabama as is reference is not only of no value its asinine- they will win at all cost and Notre Dame will not. To rebuilt there was easy compared to what culture change would have to take place at Notre Dame. Case closed.

 

[irisheyes]

I know this will probably get me laughed off the forum but i like les miles. He has a lot of experience playing top quality programs, and players love him.

 

[IrishLax]

I know this will probably get me laughed off the forum but i like les miles. He has a lot of experience playing top quality programs, and players love him.

Would be about as bad of a hire as ND could make. Would win 7/8 games a year for about 4 years and then be fired. There's a reason he doesn't have job right now.

 

[IrishLax]

Imo no. There is only 3 or 4 teams I would call elite. Bama,Clemson,Osu,Fsu.

What was Clemson back in 2010 though? Texas, USC would've been in that group a decade or so ago and now aren't... though USC is knocking on the door of being back. Bama was a Tier 3 team before they hired Saban.

There is no defined, static tier of "elite" schools. It changes. So of course ND isn't "elite" right now, but that isn't answering the question really.

 

[GATTACA!]

Imo no. There is only 3 or 4 teams I would call elite. Bama,Clemson,Osu,Fsu.

2 of those 4 have already had their heads bashed in this season.

 

[IrishLax]

Did you neg rep me on purpose...for making a joke about prominent Catholic coaches not coming to ND?

I'd love for him to come to ND and kill it.

Yeah I'm doing this thing where I neg rep bad/dumb posts and give positive reps to good posts.

 

[irisheyes]

Would be about as bad of a hire as ND could make. Would win 7/8 games a year for about 4 years and then be fired. There's a reason he doesn't have job right now.

National championship, sec champs a couple times, better win percentage.

all the statistics say that he is better than bk.

 

[BobbyMac]

Will ND Football Ever Become Elite?

They've become elite at least 6 times.

Will they ever become elite again? If they REALLY want to, yes. If they continue with this path, it will take luck, assistants who can coach up a roster full of .8800-.9400 players and have a handful of impact players, one being the QB... like Clemson and Watson did last year.

Will the new staff, the 2017-2019 classes and Phil J at QB be that recipe? The odds are no... but it is possible.

 

[NorthDakota]

What was Clemson back in 2010 though? Texas, USC would've been in that group a decade or so ago and now aren't... though USC is knocking on the door of being back. Bama was a Tier 3 team before they hired Saban.

There is no defined, static tier of "elite" schools. It changes. So of course ND isn't "elite" right now, but that isn't answering the question really.

Right? I'm thinking there is what..15 or so "blue blood" programs that have the potential to become elite at any time.

tOSU
scUM
Penn St
ND
USC
Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Texas
FSU
Florida
Clemson?
Nebraska?????
Oklahoma
Miami
Georgia
Tennessee?

Probably a few others I'm missing. But I would think that those are generally great jobs to get regardless of recent performances. I think there are a few others that seem to really make the most of what they are capable of but I can't for the life of me ever see them being anything more than just a very good football program.

Stanford
Wisconsin
Michigan St
Oregon?

 

[Junkhead]

Set year to 1988. Instant Eliteness.

 

[IrishLax]

Give us a list when you get a chance. I'm genuinely curious to see who you come up with. For realism, let's say the untouchables are: Saban, Meyer, Dabo, Harbaugh. Go nuts with the rest.

Here's my list of guys I'd fore sure take over Kelly right now and are at least logically plausible:

John Harbaugh -- I think he's the best hire you could make. Already got into the how, but why I think he'd be good is that he's a proven coach at the highest level that isn't an Xs and Os guy... he's just a good coach. Lack of extensive college experience is a negative but he'd recruit top 10 classes every year and the program would not have a lot of the issues it has now.

Bill O'Brien -- Probably going to be fired in Houston if the season goes poorly, I think he's a really good coach. Not sure where he'd be on my list but he'd for sure have to be someone ND considers.

Joe Moorhead -- Moorehead is basically Chip Kelly in terms of career arc. He absolutely saved Franklin's job and took a PSU team from mediocre-to-elite based on nothing but his awesome scheme. You hire him for his brain and hope he can manage everything else... good news is that unlike most OCs he does have head coaching experience and a good reputation.

Brent Venables -- Dunno how this would fit with Elko, but Venables is the kind of coordinator you roll the dice on IMO. He's routinely put together elite defenses often with guys that weren't actually that highly rated. Best DC in college football.

These are the four guys I'd focus on. There are all kinds of pipe dreams (Urban, Patterson, etc.) and high risk guys (the Grudens, Fleck, etc.) and re-treads (Schiano, etc.) and a ton of up-and-commers. I could go down the ND short list from last year's search committee from which I've heard Rhule and Narduzzi emerged as the "best" candidates and that's obviously scary. But I think that's kind of pointless right now. The four guys I listed you could probably get for the right contract... all four will either be available or willing to consider a promotion. And I'd be very happy with any of them, especially Harbaugh and O'Brien.

 

[IrishLax]

Right? I'm thinking there is what..15 or so "blue blood" programs that have the potential to become elite at any time.

tOSU
scUM
Penn St
ND
USC
Alabama
Auburn
LSU
Texas
FSU
Florida
Clemson?
Nebraska?????
Oklahoma
Miami
Georgia
Tennessee?

Probably a few others I'm missing. But I would think that those are generally great jobs to get regardless of recent performances. I think there are a few others that seem to really make the most of what they are capable of but I can't for the life of me ever see them being anything more than just a very good football program.

Stanford
Wisconsin
Michigan St
Oregon?

Exactly, and of those Nebraska probably has the biggest hurdles to ever getting back to what they once were.

The "right coach" at any of those other schools can put together a program that wins 10+ games every* year and routinely in the playoffs.

 

[GATTACA!]

Here's my list of guys I'd fore sure take over Kelly right now and are at least logically plausible:

John Harbaugh -- I think he's the best hire you could make. Already got into the how, but why I think he'd be good is that he's a proven coach at the highest level that isn't an Xs and Os guy... he's just a good coach. Lack of extensive college experience is a negative but he'd recruit top 10 classes every year and the program would not have a lot of the issues it has now.

Bill O'Brien -- Probably going to be fired in Houston if the season goes poorly, I think he's a really good coach. Not sure where he'd be on my list but he'd for sure have to be someone ND considers.

Joe Moorhead -- Moorehead is basically Chip Kelly in terms of career arc. He absolutely saved Franklin's job and took a PSU team from mediocre-to-elite based on nothing but his awesome scheme. You hire him for his brain and hope he can manage everything else... good news is that unlike most HCs he does have head coaching experience and a good reputation.

Brent Venables -- Dunno how this would fit with Elko, but Venables is the kind of coordinator you roll the dice on IMO. He's routinely put together elite defenses often with guys that weren't actually that highly rated. Best DC in college football.

These are the four guys I'd focus on. There are all kinds of pipe dreams (Urban, Patterson, etc.) and high risk guys (the Grudens, Fleck, etc.) and re-treads (Schiano, etc.) and a ton of up-and-commers. I could go down the ND short list from last year's search committee from which I've heard Rhule and Narduzzi emerged as the "best" candidates and that's obviously scary. But I think that's kind of pointless right now. The four guys I listed you could probably get for the right contract... all four will either be available or willing to consider a promotion. And I'd be very happy with any of them, especially Harbaugh and O'Brien.

Great stuff LAX. What are your thoughts on Aranda? Also is Fuente a complete pipe dream?

 

[Pa Golden Tate Fan]

Here's my list of guys I'd fore sure take over Kelly right now and are at least logically plausible:

John Harbaugh -- I think he's the best hire you could make. Already got into the how, but why I think he'd be good is that he's a proven coach at the highest level that isn't an Xs and Os guy... he's just a good coach. Lack of extensive college experience is a negative but he'd recruit top 10 classes every year and the program would not have a lot of the issues it has now.

Bill O'Brien -- Probably going to be fired in Houston if the season goes poorly, I think he's a really good coach. Not sure where he'd be on my list but he'd for sure have to be someone ND considers.

Joe Moorhead -- Moorehead is basically Chip Kelly in terms of career arc. He absolutely saved Franklin's job and took a PSU team from mediocre-to-elite based on nothing but his awesome scheme. You hire him for his brain and hope he can manage everything else... good news is that unlike most HCs he does have head coaching experience and a good reputation.

Brent Venables -- Dunno how this would fit with Elko, but Venables is the kind of coordinator you roll the dice on IMO. He's routinely put together elite defenses often with guys that weren't actually that highly rated. Best DC in college football.

These are the four guys I'd focus on. There are all kinds of pipe dreams (Urban, Patterson, etc.) and high risk guys (the Grudens, Fleck, etc.) and re-treads (Schiano, etc.) and a ton of up-and-commers. I could go down the ND short list from last year's search committee from which I've heard Rhule and Narduzzi emerged as the "best" candidates and that's obviously scary. But I think that's kind of pointless right now. The four guys I listed you could probably get for the right contract... all four will either be available or willing to consider a promotion. And I'd be very happy with any of them, especially Harbaugh and O'Brien.

Hey Lax can you see DJ Durkin from Maryland becoming a candidate?

 

[IrishLax]

Great stuff LAX. What are your thoughts on Aranda? Also is Fuente a complete pipe dream?

There are a lot of guys like Aranda, Pruitt, etc. that fall into the same category. Of those guys, I'd most like to have Venables so that's why I listed him. You could make a good case of a lot OCs and DCs as well as many Group of Five coaches. But they all come with a ton of risk.

Fuente is someone ND could probably get, and I'm actually a huge fan of Fuente but would like to see him have a year better than 10-4 at a place like Virginia Tech before I'd make that hire... he's got a grand total of 5 years of HC experience and only one at the P5 level. He runs good offense though.

 

[IrishLax]

Hey Lax can you see DJ Durkin from Maryland becoming a candidate?

This is why I kept my list at 4 names, because there are a lot of "DJ Durkin" type candidates. I don't see anything about DJ Durkin that makes me believe he's obviously an upgrade over Kelly at this point. I don't think he'd be at the top of any short list.

If I was in charge I'd start with the 4 guys I listed (really the top 2 + feelers to the other "big fish" of CFB that probably don't want the job).

Regardless, all probably a moot point if Kelly manages to win 9 games this year.

 

[Buster Bluth]

John Harbaugh -- I think he's the best hire you could make. Already got into the how, but why I think he'd be good is that he's a proven coach at the highest level that isn't an Xs and Os guy... he's just a good coach. Lack of extensive college experience is a negative but he'd recruit top 10 classes every year and the program would not have a lot of the issues it has now.

Can you imagine if Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State all had coaches born in Toledo, at the same damn hospital, I assume--I would die haha

Each of those coaches have some major unknowns. I'd suggest Dave Clawson. Watch out for him to come into South Bend and beat Kelly this year to guarantee the opening, too. He'd keep Elko of course, and his offenses have always been good. He's turned around three other programs. But, he's not shinier than Kelly was in 2009.

 

[IrishMoore1]

I think Kelly at least proved that ND can be at an elite level i.e. 2012-2015 seasons, but he couldn't sustain it, and I suspect he got burned out.

We haven't gotten recruits like Lynch, Tuit, Nix, etc. since then. We need guys like that every year to compete. I can't see any players like this coming to ND as long as Kelly is still the coach.

 

[GATTACA!]

Can you imagine if Notre Dame, Michigan, and Ohio State all had coaches born in Toledo, at the same damn hospital, I assume--I would die haha

Each of those coaches have some major unknowns. I'd suggest Dave Clawson. Watch out for him to come into South Bend and beat Kelly this year to guarantee the opening, too. He'd keep Elko of course, and his offenses have always been good. He's turned around three other programs. But, he's not shinier than Kelly was in 2009.

Meh. That would be the least exciting possibility.

 

[Calabrese's People]

The Brian Kelly Era is going to shape the parameters of the search for a new coach anyway. I think its hard to step away from the scarring. I think Jack is going to want to see emotional maturity, calmness under-fire, a good relationship with the media and a perception of control. The feedback i get from most of the people that i talk ND football about is that he makes the program look bratty and insecure (and thats almost exclusively from viewing how the media responds to his interactions). Fair or not, BK gets smashed my social media and real media alike, more than any coach i have ever seen.
As a result i think the new candidate will have to be an ex-HC with runs on the board, as far as organisational culture is concerned.
I imagine the list to look like:
1. John Harbaugh


2.Joe Moorehead
3. Greg Schiano

 

[GATTACA!]

The Brian Kelly Era is going to shape the parameters of the search for a new coach anyway. I think its hard to step away from the scarring. I think Jack is going to want to see emotional maturity, calmness under-fire, a good relationship with the media and a perception of control. The feedback i get from most of the people that i talk ND football about is that he makes the program look bratty and insecure (and thats almost exclusively from viewing how the media responds to his interactions). Fair or not, BK gets smashed my social media and real media alike, more than any coach i have ever seen.
As a result i think the new candidate will have to be an ex-HC with runs on the board, as far as organisational culture is concerned.
I imagine the list to look like:
1. John Harbaugh


2.Joe Moorehead
3. Greg Schiano

Schiano strikes me as another hot head. Not sure about him if we're trying to buck the BK mold.