Who do you want to replace Brian Kelly?

[Irish#1]

I mean, I started a thread in the middle of Michigan State titled "Fire Everyone"... so yeah, I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that massive staff overhaul is necessary.

But people should be very careful not to misplace blame with bad arguments, because that's how you end up with good coaches working at other places and making us pay for it. There is an established history of ND fans getting fed up with Coach X... and then years later, Coach X is working for a rival, doing an awesome job, and making us look like buffoons.

Best example this year is the repeated criticism of Hiestand which is just beyond stupid and shows utter ignorance by many people about OL play and football in general. Criticism of Longo might be more legitimate and a change could help, but the arguments against him are generally anecdotal or otherwise tenuous. Only a few points (player complaints, injuries, weight of players in the trenches, etc.) stand up to scrutiny at all.

I guess I should have used italics. I agree, things go south and all of a sudden everyone is looking to blame anyone and everyone.

 

[NDohio]

I mean, I started a thread in the middle of Michigan State titled "Fire Everyone"... so yeah, I'm not unsympathetic to the idea that massive staff overhaul is necessary.

But people should be very careful not to misplace blame with bad arguments, because that's how you end up with good coaches working at other places and making us pay for it. There is an established history of ND fans getting fed up with Coach X... and then years later, Coach X is working for a rival, doing an awesome job, and making us look like buffoons.

Best example this year is the repeated criticism of Hiestand which is just beyond stupid and shows utter ignorance by many people about OL play and football in general. Criticism of Longo might be more legitimate and a change could help, but the arguments against him are generally anecdotal or otherwise tenuous. Only a few points (player complaints, injuries, weight of players in the trenches, etc.) stand up to scrutiny at all.

Yeah but, you know, eye test...

 

[HoosierMP33]

Notre Dame fans, alums take out ad against AD Jack Swarbrick in student paper | FOX Sports


https://issuu.com/the-observer/docs/finished_template_12-07-2016/11


I see things like this and it helps ou things in perspective ....smh.... why is BK still our coach? Could just one ND beat writer seriously just man the hell up and present these things to Jack and keep asking him why untile he actually answers the question.... Tired of the "BK is better than what's out there answer" too.... You see things like this, you do the math, and we the hell couldn't we find someone better? How is someone like BK kept around and paid top dollar?? He ain't worth it! I was kinda hoping BK wld be interested in the Cincy HC opening..... smdh.....

 

[Free Manera]

Mhmm.

So much criticism of Longo... and maybe some of it is justified, who knows... but we saw OBVIOUS improvement when he took over from Mendoza in terms of conditioning. And there was anecdotal development of players into better athletes... namely guys like Will Fuller, Harrison Smith, etc.

But you go 4-8 and it's time to blame everyone.

I didn't think there was any dispute that S&C was deficient. All of the ISD and BGI guys are pretty adamant about it. Players are hiring their own trainers to help keep muscle on. And apparently during exit interviews players expressed some concerns about its effectiveness.

Something is definitely wrong with either training methodology, effort, nutrition, or all of the above. Regardless S&C needs to figure it out.

 

[koonja]

I didn't think there was any dispute that S&C was deficient. All of the ISD and BGI guys are pretty adamant about it. Players are hiring their own trainers to help keep muscle on. And apparently during exit interviews players expressed some concerns about its effectiveness.

Something is definitely wrong with either training methodology, effort, nutrition, or all of the above. Regardless S&C needs to figure it out.

There's not, other than the people who say 'well how do you prove the S/C program is deficient', which cannot be done.

Player's coaches have complained about it, the product on the field relative to the talent we bring in is soft, ISD/Rivals/IrishIllustrated are all clear and loud that the S/C program is awful. And now, allegedly, the players are complaining and they don't even have anything to compare Longo's program to (other than whatever they had in high school).

No way to prove it, but I bet if a Bama grad/former coach came to spend 1 year with our S/C coach/program, they'd either laugh at us or cry for us, depending on where their heart was.

 

[ACamp1900]

I'm shocked that koon was the first to respond to a post about our S&C...

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I miss the good old days when Marotti was despised at ND. Whoops! Just another swing and miss from the S&C criticism.

Best thing to happen to Mickey is Louis Simmons and Westside Barbell.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I didn't think there was any dispute that S&C was deficient. All of the ISD and BGI guys are pretty adamant about it. Players are hiring their own trainers to help keep muscle on. And apparently during exit interviews players expressed some concerns about its effectiveness.

Something is definitely wrong with either training methodology, effort, nutrition, or all of the above. Regardless S&C needs to figure it out.

This is the million dollar question for me. I want to know exactly what his methodology is. From the few clips we get to see, it looks like a mishmash disaster.

 

[Free Manera]

There's not, other than the people who say 'well how do you prove the S/C program is deficient', which cannot be done.

Player's coaches have complained about it, the product on the field relative to the talent we bring in is soft, ISD/Rivals/IrishIllustrated are all clear and loud that the S/C program is awful. And now, allegedly, the players are complaining and they don't even have anything to compare Longo's program to (other than whatever they had in high school).

No way to prove it, but I bet if a Bama grad/former coach came to spend 1 year with our S/C coach/program, they'd either laugh at us or cry for us, depending on where their heart was.

It actually can be proven. Guys are losing too much weight. McGlinchey ended the season under 300 lbs. He's 6'7! How is he under 300 lbs? Nutritional intake isn't being properly tracked.

 

[IrishLax]

Notre Dame fans, alums take out ad against AD Jack Swarbrick in student paper | FOX Sports


https://issuu.com/the-observer/docs/finished_template_12-07-2016/11


I see things like this and it helps ou things in perspective ....smh.... why is BK still our coach? Could just one ND beat writer seriously just man the hell up and present these things to Jack and keep asking him why untile he actually answers the question.... Tired of the "BK is better than what's out there answer" too.... You see things like this, you do the math, and we the hell couldn't we find someone better? How is someone like BK kept around and paid top dollar?? He ain't worth it! I was kinda hoping BK wld be interested in the Cincy HC opening..... smdh.....

Straight talk the reason is that the caliber of coach they could've gotten to replace him if they fired him this year was Matt Rhule, PJ Fleck, Narduzzi, etc. No one wants to pay $25mil + the new coach's salary + the new coach's buyout for that kind of replacement.

The people behind the scenes aren't stupid and they also aren't happy. But it just wasn't in the cards to make a move this year. It's time to accept it and move on... not take out newspaper ads to tell the administration something they already know.

 

[tussin]

Straight talk the reason is that the caliber of coach they could've gotten to replace him if they fired him this year was Matt Rhule, PJ Fleck, Narduzzi, etc. No one wants to pay $25mil + the new coach's salary + the new coach's buyout for that kind of replacement.

The people behind the scenes aren't stupid and they also aren't happy. But it just wasn't in the cards to make a move this year. It's time to accept it and move on... not take out newspaper ads to tell the administration something they already know.

It's kind of a Catch 22, because I suspect that the desired caliber of coach that would cause the admin to fire Kelly wouldn't come here anyways.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

It actually can be proven. Guys are losing too much weight. McGlinchey ended the season under 300 lbs. He's 6'7! How is he under 300 lbs? Nutritional intake isn't being properly tracked.

Agreed. The whole thing is a miss. Kelly's scheme doesn't call for 'brawlers' in the trenches due to zone blocking. So, McGlinchey being 'quick' is more important to Kelly than overwhelming people with size and strength. That's why I think Harry is doing a fine job with what he's working with, but its the scheme that's the problem.

Likewise with Longo. Kelly wants a particular type of player, so from what I can tell our lineman are doing the same crap as the Wide receivers in the weight room which is a recipe for disaster.

 

[Free Manera]

Agreed. The whole thing is a miss. Kelly's scheme doesn't call for 'brawlers' in the trenches due to zone blocking. So, McGlinchey being 'quick' is more important to Kelly than overwhelming people with size and strength. That's why I think Harry is doing a fine job with what he's working with, but its the scheme that's the problem.

Likewise with Longo. Kelly wants a particular type of player, so from what I can tell our lineman are doing the same crap as the Wide receivers in the weight room which is a recipe for disaster.

I think nutritional tracking is the big problem. Losing weight is the result of burning more calories than are being ingested. Most programs monitor everything the players eat, and ND is either not doing that or doing it wrong.

The strength training is probably ineffectual too, based on players' opinions (which are probably based on what they hear from players in other programs or their privately hired trainers) but even the most perfect training regimen doesn't work if caloric intake is inadequate. Get these guys fed right.

 

[Luckylucci]

Straight talk the reason is that the caliber of coach they could've gotten to replace him if they fired him this year was Matt Rhule, PJ Fleck, Narduzzi, etc. No one wants to pay $25mil + the new coach's salary + the new coach's buyout for that kind of replacement.

The people behind the scenes aren't stupid and they also aren't happy. But it just wasn't in the cards to make a move this year. It's time to accept it and move on... not take out newspaper ads to tell the administration something they already know.

Exactly, all that is doing is hurting the program even more, at this point.

If anything is going to get us out of this mess, its going to be recruiting talent, regardless of who the next coach is. Do we really think perspective players look at this and pump their respective fists? Its just setting us back more.

 

[ScooterIrish]

Straight talk the reason is that the caliber of coach they could've gotten to replace him if they fired him this year was Matt Rhule, PJ Fleck, Narduzzi, etc. No one wants to pay $25mil + the new coach's salary + the new coach's buyout for that kind of replacement.

The people behind the scenes aren't stupid and they also aren't happy. But it just wasn't in the cards to make a move this year. It's time to accept it and move on... not take out newspaper ads to tell the administration something they already know.

I don't think Jack thinks Kelly should be fired though....

 

[Luckylucci]

Agreed. The whole thing is a miss. Kelly's scheme doesn't call for 'brawlers' in the trenches due to zone blocking. So, McGlinchey being 'quick' is more important to Kelly than overwhelming people with size and strength. That's why I think Harry is doing a fine job with what he's working with, but its the scheme that's the problem.
Likewise with Longo. Kelly wants a particular type of player, so from what I can tell our lineman are doing the same crap as the Wide receivers in the weight room which is a recipe for disaster.

I've mentioned this before but inevitably it gets glossed over from overbearing fans who are pissed we are losing, and aren't willing to pay attention to the details. This cannot be understated, as it is a huge part of what people are mad about. The scheme does, essentially what its supposed to do. Which is create huge chunk plays in the ground game, with combo blocks and cut back lanes.

A more accurate criticism than calling out HH or McGlinchey would be to call out Kelly for not having some wrinkles in short yardage situations. It wouldn't be that difficult to have a short yardage playbook or gameplan each week, that we practice obviously. Where we go with more traditional power formations, 2 TE's, use an H-back, go under C, etc.

 

[kmoose]

Putting a great football product on the field is Jack's primary job.

One of my older brothers spent 7 years on the staff at ND. The primary job of EVERY employee of the University is to contribute to providing a world class education and maturation experience for EVERY student enrolled. Just because you and koon are most interested in the football team and its win/loss record, doesn't mean that the AD can take his eye off of the other aspects of the job, or that he won't be evaluated on his entire job, not just one specific aspect of it.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

I think nutritional tracking is the big problem. Losing weight is the result of burning more calories than are being ingested. Most programs monitor everything the players eat, and ND is either not doing that or doing it wrong.

The strength training is probably ineffectual too, based on players' opinions (which are probably based on what they hear from players in other programs or their privately hired trainers) but even the most perfect training regimen doesn't work if caloric intake is inadequate. Get these guys fed right.

This what sort of my point. We don't know whats going on behind I closed doors. Kelly and Co. might of WANTED him to lose weight. Which, to be clear I disagree with. But if 'strength' isn't your game, why be bigger and stronger?

 

[Luckylucci]

Agreed. The whole thing is a miss. Kelly's scheme doesn't call for 'brawlers' in the trenches due to zone blocking. So, McGlinchey being 'quick' is more important to Kelly than overwhelming people with size and strength. That's why I think Harry is doing a fine job with what he's working with, but its the scheme that's the problem.

Likewise with Longo. Kelly wants a particular type of player, so from what I can tell our lineman are doing the same crap as the Wide receivers in the weight room which is a recipe for disaster.

To add to this Kelly has mentioned that volume is a big part of what they want to do. He wants players to be able to play a lot of plays/game. Maybe that needs to be tweaked.

Then to go back to the OL, look at Oregon's OL under Chip Kelly. They are not brute force type of offensive lineman They are athletic OL that play well in space, because that is the ultimate goal of the scheme. Coincidentally, Chip's run game was one of the best in the country throughout his tenure at Oregon, but didn't play well when matched up with big strong DL's, that were able to manhandle his OL. That's the give and take of the way the scheme is.

 

[Free Manera]

This what sort of my point. We don't know whats going on behind I closed doors. Kelly and Co. might of WANTED him to lose weight. Which, to be clear I disagree with. But if 'strength' isn't your game, why be bigger and stronger?

The thing is all of the weight loss happened during the season, which means it probably wasn't intended. His weight at the start of the season (325 lbs I believe) was likely his target weight since he had all spring and summer to get it dialed in.

All players are going to lose a little during the season, but from what I heard on one of the podcasts, ND players are losing way too much, like 20-30 lbs. That is going to make you weaker and make recovery more difficult.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

To add to this Kelly has mentioned that volume is a big part of what they want to do. He wants players to be able to play a lot of plays/game. Maybe that needs to be tweaked.

Then to go back to the OL, look at Oregon's OL under Chip Kelly. They are not brute force type of offensive lineman They are athletic OL that play well in space, because that is the ultimate goal of the scheme. Coincidentally, Chip's run game was one of the best in the country throughout his tenure at Oregon, but didn't play well when matched up with big strong DL's, that were able to manhandle his OL. That's the give and take of the way the scheme is.

We're totally on the same page. I personally can't stand what Kelly is trying/wants to do. But, its what he's doing. I don't think we have the players across the board to do what he wants to do, which is crazy considering this is year 7. We are better suited to be a little more power little less finesse in my opinion.

I think Kelly wants to be a version of Oregon of old, so I like your analogy using them. But similar to us, who always smacked them around? Stanford. Why? Bigger, Stronger, meaner. What did OSU do to them a couple years ago? Smacked them.

Its a philosophy issue right now with ND

 

[gkIrish]

One of my older brothers spent 7 years on the staff at ND. The primary job of EVERY employee of the University is to contribute to providing a world class education and maturation experience for EVERY student enrolled. Just because you and koon are most interested in the football team and its win/loss record, doesn't mean that the AD can take his eye off of the other aspects of the job, or that he won't be evaluated on his entire job, not just one specific aspect of it.

Yeah actually my #1 interest is that the school achieves the highest possible academic reputation so my degree is more valuable.

You seem to think academic success and football success are mutually exclusive, which is just flat out false.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

The thing is all of the weight loss happened during the season, which means it probably wasn't intended. His weight at the start of the season (325 lbs I believe) was likely his target weight since he had all spring and summer to get it dialed in.

All players are going to lose a little during the season, but from what I heard on one of the podcasts, ND players are losing way too much, like 20-30 lbs. That is going to make you weaker and make recovery more difficult.

Do we know if he got DOWN to 325 or up to 325? If it was a weight lose goal, then lets say over the course of 15 weeks, he essentially lost less that 2lbs per week. Which under strict nutrition guidelines he would see no ill effects in performance. Especially if 'strength' is not a focal point or a gauge in which Kelly, Longo put much stock in.

To add, you're correct, he absolutely is/was weaker. I just don't think Kelly or Longo and Co. Care.

 

[Luckylucci]

We're totally on the same page. I personally can't stand what Kelly is trying/wants to do. But, its what he's doing. I don't think we have the players across the board to do what he wants to do, which is crazy considering this is year 7. We are better suited to be a little more power little less finesse in my opinion.

I think Kelly wants to be a version of Oregon of old, so I like your analogy using them. But similar to us, who always smacked them around? Stanford. Why? Bigger, Stronger, meaner. What did OSU do to them a couple years ago? Smacked them.

Its a philosophy issue right now with ND

Yep, its an identity issue 100%. See, Chip knew what he wanted his team to look like so he recruited to it and called plays to it. His teams played fast, because that was going to be there advantage.

BK is stuck in this in between, where he wants to be slow and methodical when he wants to, but wants to play fast when he wants to. In theory, I understand the goal, but its clearly not working and he needs to choose which identity he wants to roll with. Because right now, its a team without an identity.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Yep, its an identity issue 100%. See, Chip knew what he wanted his team to look like so he recruited to it and called plays to it. His teams played fast, because that was going to be there advantage.

BK is stuck in this in between, where he wants to be slow and methodical when he wants to, but wants to play fast when he wants to. In theory, I understand the goal, but its clearly not working and he needs to choose which identity he wants to roll with. Because right now, its a team without an identity.

My man. I couldn't of said it better.

 

[kmoose]

Yeah actually my #1 interest is that the school achieves the highest possible academic reputation so my degree is more valuable.

You seem to think academic success and football success are mutually exclusive, which is just flat out false.

I think no such thing. What I'm saying is that both you and koon have mentioned today that Swarbrick's #1 priority is to put a winning football team on the field, and that's just not true. So his boss(es) are not going to put as much weight on football wins and losses as you guys are, when they are evaluating him.

I don't think academic success and football success are mutually exclusive. But I DO acknowledge that ND continues to make sure that football players are educated first, and play football second........... while most other teams have either severely watered down, or completely abandoned that model. And that does put ND at a disadvantage. It doesn't mean that they can't be ALOT more competitive than they have been, but it does mean that it is much easier to end up 8-4 than it used to be.

 

[gkIrish]

I think no such thing. What I'm saying is that both you and koon have mentioned today that Swarbrick's #1 priority is to put a winning football team on the field, and that's just not true. So his boss(es) are not going to put as much weight on football wins and losses as you guys are, when they are evaluating him.

I don't think academic success and football success are mutually exclusive. But I DO acknowledge that ND continues to make sure that football players are educated first, and play football second........... while most other teams have either severely watered down, or completely abandoned that model. And that does put ND at a disadvantage. It doesn't mean that they can't be ALOT more competitive than they have been, but it does mean that it is much easier to end up 8-4 than it used to be.

You are equating me saying his #1 priority is quality football to me saying he has zero responsibility towards the other stuff you are talking about. I'm not saying that. There are plenty of qualified people that could come in and produce similar academic results for athletes as Jack. For the most part, he has paired that with athletic success. However, the football team happens to support all the other teams besides men's and women's basketball so the reality is his priority is to keep fans in the stands and in the bookstore buying stuff. If you think otherwise you are being naïve.

 

[kmoose]

You are equating me saying his #1 priority is quality football to me saying he has zero responsibility towards the other stuff you are talking about. I'm not saying that. There are plenty of qualified people that could come in and produce similar academic results for athletes as Jack. For the most part, he has paired that with athletic success. However, the football team happens to support all the other teams besides men's and women's basketball so the reality is his priority is to keep fans in the stands and in the bookstore buying stuff. If you think otherwise you are being naïve.

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm saying that you and koon are wrong, if you think that Swarbrick's #1 priority is, or even should be, wins and losses on the football field. That's not to say it shouldn't be a HIGH priority for him, but it isn't his #1 priority, like both of you have claimed.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Great ad in the Observer today. Silent majority of ND students, alumni, and fans want to make ND great again. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/firekelly?src=hash">#firekelly</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/fireswarbrick?src=hash">#fireswarbrick</a> <a href="https://t.co/1yLJPmNSkP">pic.twitter.com/1yLJPmNSkP</a></p>— Notre Dame Trump (@realNotreTrump) <a href="https://twitter.com/realNotreTrump/status/806494145057615872">December 7, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I for one, applaud the intent here, if not the execution. Jack has made it clear no change is coming, and that indeed, he has some level of positive satisfaction with the job Kelly has done. If you are of the mind that is unacceptable, this IS the appropriate way to respond (assuming of course, you aren't in a position to influence decision making in the athletic department). Is it harmful to the program? Yeah, of course. That's the point. These folks are trying to force change, not dissimilar from the DAPL protests - it's grassroots and divisive, but can produce a positive outcome ultimately. I say bravo, and they should keep it up.

 

[koonja]

I'm doing nothing of the sort. I'm saying that you and koon are wrong, if you think that Swarbrick's #1 priority is, or even should be, wins and losses on the football field. That's not to say it shouldn't be a HIGH priority for him, but it isn't his #1 priority, like both of you have claimed.

He's the ATHLETIC director. What's the most important category of ND athletics?

Football.