Walker Wins Wis Recall, Obama Wins Exit Poll

[RDU Irish]

Unions backed Kathleen Falk and blew their wad in the Democratic primary. They did not want Barrett. Then they withheld their money from Barrett because they always pout when they don't get their way. Look at the total dollars spent on this recall, what it cost to push the ballot in the first place, the democrat primary and final election and dems did not spend much less than Republicans.

Don't forget they did a state Supreme Court recall and four state senator recalls on top of the governor and Lt. governor.

You don't think the union base might be a little upset they wasted so much $$$ on these failed pissing matches? And yes, thanks to a quick google search-

"The state’s second-largest union, American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, had membership fall to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011, the Journal said Thursday. The organization’s Afscme Council 24, composed of state workers, fell more than two thirds to 7,100 from 22,300 last year."

Wisconsin Union Membership Tanks « Commentary Magazine

That is a lot of money leaving union coffers and entering household budgets. Kind of sad those union kingpins might have to take a pay cut and have a harder time buying politicians. This is the real crippling blow, collective bargaining is big, but really just the validation for soaking everyone for dues.

 

[Bluto]

There is a lot of anecdote in this response to be claiming that people are voting based on anecdote!

That was kind of what I was getting at. Lol.

 

[Bluto]

The key to the union membership dropping article thing was that the dues were not automatically withdrawn. Kind of human nature not to want to pay for something that doesnt reward you instantly. Anyhow, it's been great gotta go to work. In closing if you cross a picket line you suck. Haha. Go Irish!

 

[RDU Irish]

“So far, the tens of millions of dollars that have been spent on ads don’t seem to have moved the needle very much,” McCabe said. “Poll numbers haven’t changed much. Walker’s approval ratings haven’t changed. So the tens of millions spent don’t seem to have changed very many minds."

Wisconsin Recall Election Spending Tops $60 Million - ABC News

Even ABC doesn't think the spending counted much toward the results. Yes Walker got help from outside the state but $60 million of total spending on the election amounts to about $10 for every resident of the state. Not exactly overwhelming.

http://mediatrackers.org/2012/05/02/exclusive-big-labor-pours-7-mil-into-recall-likely-to-exceed-2011-spending/

I haven't tracked down anything that summarizes total spending on this issue but this article tells a little more of the story.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Wisconsin is always a battleground state. Walker's most significant achievement was to end the automatic withdrawal of union dues, because union power has shriveled everywhere that has happened previously. Now the Democratic political machine will find it much more difficult to mobilize resources in what has historically been a very important blue state.

 

[Domina Nostra]

Or it could be that money from corporate interests from outside the state were poured into the state to help swing the election.

Unions use their clout to get their way, as do corporations. I guess I think of "corporate" as collective money serving an interest. To me, unions have a history of throwing around a lot of that kind of money too. Both unions and corporations abhor competition, and love to use the political process as a means to achieve thier ends.

 

[connor_in]

Wisconsin is always a battleground state. Walker's most significant achievement was to end the automatic withdrawal of union dues, because union power has shriveled everywhere that has happened previously. Now the Democratic political machine will find it much more difficult to mobilize resources in what has historically been a very important blue state.

^ This is very true in recent history. Per earlier poster (missing it now will try to credit later)...while Obama won by 14, Kerry did win there but by about 11,000 and the previuos election went D by 5,000. One thing to note though, if you go further back in history, you can find that WI had a very progressive leaning in its political past.

One other point I want to make...the OP noted how while Walker won, exit polls showed Obama winning by about 7% over Romney...a couple other guys have pointed out that those same exit polls showed a 50/50 race when the final outcome was +7 for Walker...so that +7 for Obama in exit polling is questionable...exit polls are notoriously flawed (ask Al Gore and John Kerry) and tend to favor Democrats in many cases...a common reason for this being exit polls are usually performed in the larger metropolitan areas and those tend more Democrat, while there are fewer pollsters in the spread out rural areas that tend toward Republican...also, and this one tends to be more anecdotal so it grain of salt worthy...stereotypically D's tend to be more outgoing and therefore willing to tell an exit pollster who they voted for, while R's tend to be more private and do not respond (NOTE: FWIW I do consider myself a Republican, but I was also a poli sci/econ major and my professors and textbooks put forth similar views on this matter)

 

[irishpat183]

Irish Lax those are all good points and what my experience has been is that there are bad workers all around. Davis-Bacon would not exist without Unions though and again organized labor is the only counter balance to corporations in terms of power in most countries and play a very important role in that regard. Why would people choose to leave unions? Not sure. Dissalusionment maybe? Regardless I find that 50% number hard to believe without a credible source. Nobody wins elections due to money? Give me a break.

YOu're absolutely right about bad workers all around. That's not exclusive to just Unions.

And organized labor doesn't need to be funded or forced. If workers wanna unite, they are free to do so. I have a problem with forcing it on people and the workers paying for it through asinine dues...that sometimes come out of medical benefits!! So long after you're done with the Union, they still get their dues.

And people are going to leave the unions. Again, some are there against their will. I wouldn't doubt it if it was 50%. That tells you all you need to know about what America thinks about those corporations...err.....unions.

And while money does play a role....funny how you never hear the left complaining when they spend millions and win an election? It's just called "Successful fundraising".

 

[irishpat183]

Unions use their clout to get their way, as do corporations. I guess I think of "corporate" as collective money serving an interest. To me, unions have a history of throwing around a lot of that kind of money too. Both unions and corporations abhor competition, and love to use the political process as a means to achieve thier ends.

The worst part about Unions spending their money on politics as opposed to corporations??? It's that tax payers (some that may not agree politically with the unions) fund unions. At least when a corporation makes a political donation, you can stop doing biz with them and cut advertising. Unions get your money regardless.

 

[Rhode Irish]

While I am liberal on most social issues, unions are probably my most conservative political issue (along with the 2nd Amendment). Unions have outlived their usefulness in the United States in general, and public sector labor unions could be the single most destructive force for state budgets. At least in the private sector the unions negotiate with an interested adversarial party (and even then they have succeeded in driving whole industries into the ground), but public sector unions negotiate "against" the politicians that they elected and who do not have to spend their own money to appease the unions.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

I appreciate the varied opinions found here but some of the stereotyping is completely out of line.

I won't stereotype, just give a couple of real life examples. For years I attended a trade show in Boston that required Union labor to put the booths together, put up the signing, move merchandise, etc. Without fail you would see dozens of these guys hanging out at the dock upon our arrival doing absolutely nothing but driving up the cost of doing the show. At one show there were 2 guys on a scissor lift, hanging a sign. Each guy trying to tie it off and insure it was level. There was a third guy on the floor telling them to raise or lower their side to even it out. Just as they are about to finish, break time gets called and these guys drop the sign like it was on fire. Down they come from the lift. 15 minute break takes 1/2 an hour, then all 3 return to try to hang the sign. This **** went on all day long. More recently, my company had to hire union labor to do some remodel work in a store in a NY mall. Union pricing was absurd and the guys that were there to perform the work bitched about things that they weren't responsible for (even though it was clearly spelled out in the scope of work). In their day, I'm sure unions served a purpose, but those days are long gone. There is zero incentive for these guys to do the job beyond expectations and it shows. BTW, I'm an Independent who believes in fiscal responsibility.

 

[Bluto]

Im sure if people weren't forced to pay taxes they wouldnt do that either. I think that's called the free rider effect. I also think it's a bit disingenuous to equate the power that unions wield with the power that corporations do at this point in history. I also find it interesting that while everyone seems quite eager to bash unions and talk about how they've ruined the country nobody has addressed the fact that it was the high flying titans of free market capitalism who have brought this country to its knees twice in the last century. Again it's my opinion that a crucial counter balance to the extreme power wielded by corporations are unions. Germany seems to be fairing pretty well with its high union membership. It's not an either or proposition in my opinion. Anyhow, given that one of the policy goals of the GOP is the elimination of unions for all intents and purposes and that is why I would never vote for anyone who is a member of that party. All you all union haters better burn your Springstein, Dropkick Murphy and Street Dog CD's now (do people still buy those? Can one burn an MP-3?). Well, I go back to work now comrades! Haha.

 

[Me2SouthBend]

While I am liberal on most social issues, unions are probably my most conservative political issue (along with the 2nd Amendment). Unions have outlived their usefulness in the United States in general, and public sector labor unions could be the single most destructive force for state budgets. At least in the private sector the unions negotiate with an interested adversarial party (and even then they have succeeded in driving whole industries into the ground), but public sector unions negotiate "against" the politicians that they elected and who do not have to spend their own money to appease the unions.

Not always. As in the examples I just outlined, there were no competing contractors available. Mall approved union labor. Take it or leave it.

 

[Bluto]

Stating unions have outlived their usefulness seems a bit premature. Again I present the graph that shows a strong correlation between Union membership levels and middle class income.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/unionincome.jpg

 

[chubler]

Honestly, Barrett ran a terrible campaign. He never mentioned the entire reason the recall happened (Act X, the law that took away collective bargaining). He ran on issues that Walker already had him outflanked on, and generally played it too safe to win.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Stating unions have outlived their usefulness seems a bit premature. Again I present the graph that shows a strong correlation between Union membership levels and middle class income.

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/unionincome.jpg

That graph doesn't say what you think it says -- the downward trending line isn't "middle class income" but rather their share of national income. Middle class income has risen, in real dollars, over that period.

 

[Bluto]

I had a boss who was a jerk and a republican. All republicans who are bosses are therefore jerks? Some cops beat a friend of my family to death with mag flashlights when I was a kid (true strory) so all cops are murderous thugs? From all the studies and research I've seen in terms of income distribution and middle class incomes Unions were the best thing to happen to middle class Americans in the post industrial era. I'll post some sources when I get home. iPhone's suck for posting.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Germany seems to be fairing pretty well with its high union membership.

Germany's organized labor model is collaborative, and it works very well. America's is adversarial, and it hasn't been nearly as successful.

The relationship between unions and capital has been so thoroughly bureaucratized by Washington that meaningful reform at this point is probably impossible. Unionism is on its way out in this country, mainly because the Feds have prevented it from adapting to change in world markets.

 

[SaltyND24]

I don't know much (or anything...) about construction, but my wife works in education and I'm positive that the teachers' unions are the single most destructive element in public education today. They're against anything that provides accountability or measures their performance, from testing to vouchers to tenure. Just the other day there was a story about how it took 5 years for a NY school to fire one teacher.

There are similar horror stories about having to take all the terrible teachers and just putting them all in a room together -- with no students -- because they literally do more harm than good when interacting with children. Of course, their pay remained constant...

I would have to respectfully disagree with that. Having a mother in education and going through the process of being a teacher myself (high school math), I understand that some teachers take being a part of the union as a free ride...However, I don't agree that the majority of those teachers are against being held accountable. I just feel that it's a matter of the best way to actually do that. My mom taught 6th grade last year, and when it came to math, some of these kids weren't even at a 4th grade level. Unlike when you and I were in school, she doesn't have the option of taking time to go back and catch these kids up on what they should've known coming in and instead must teach to the standards for THAT grade. Now, how can we judge a teacher on how well students perform on the 6th grade level when they're on the 4th. The days of "teaching to the test" have led many of the people I know in education to either retire or look for a new occupation. There has to be a better way of holding teachers accountable. Then again, there is only so much a teacher can do and there should be an equal amount of responsibility on the shoulders of students and parents.

If teachers are so abused, why are there literally hundreds of applicants for elementary school openings? Also drives me nuts that no one annualizes their salaries and benefits. They only work 9 months out of the year! Pretty nice to be off work when the kids are off school.

Unions have over reached for decades. Now it is being exposed. This election is more about public unions than anything. Just look at the protests they put on and how they harrass and intimidate people. They are bullies and the people paying the bills are sick of it.

Maybe I'm crazy but the extra time that teachers put in outside of "school hours" and just the fact that you have to try to tap into each child's MI (multiple intelligences) and that most of the teachers have to then take this money and purchase 90% of the supplies and other things necessary to create an environment where kids can succeed, teachers most definitely are undervalued.

I don't know...maybe I'm worked up for nothing, but it just seemed that teachers are getting sh*t on...

 

[Domina Nostra]

I don't know...maybe I'm worked up for nothing, but it just seemed that teachers are getting sh*t on...

I have taught and have teachers in my family. I think teachers are getting a hard time because they, through their unions, seem to be promoting themselves as martyr/heroes whose jobs are more valuable and more difficult than everyone else's, but who are sacrificing their endless potential for the kids. It's just not true. Its like any other profession with lots of good and bad apples, and the total compensation is pretty decent once retirement, benefits, and hours are factored in.

 

[RDU Irish]

Average MPS Teacher Compensation Tops $100k/year | MacIver Institute

The issue is benefits more than anything. This link shows the AVERAGE Milwaukee Public School system teach makes $100,000 when you account for the posh benefits package. 43.5% of this cost is benefits. Hard to muster up much sympathy when those paying taxes to support this teacher pay make less than half that on average.

Not much sympathy out there for teachers on how much time they put in when they have two weeks off around Christmas, a week for Spring Break and two months for summer on top of all the other vacation/PTO time they get. $25,000 starting salary with a clear pay scale in front of you looks pretty attractive for a lot of college grads right now. Plus you can work two months in the summer if you want to supplement income.

A lot of the teachers at our school nanny over the summer for school families. For some reason our private school finds plenty of good teachers even though our pay and benefits are far behind the public school jobs.

 

[RDU Irish]

And I am an idiot for paying so much for education when I should just get the education I am already paying for. Vouchers level this field pretty fast IMO. Why not give a couple thousand to follow the kid where ever they get an education since it costs something like $8K per kid in the public system. Oh, that's right. Unions don't like school choice because it reduces demand for public schools thus cutting the union rolls. But its about the kids right?

 

[Irish Houstonian]

...I don't agree that the majority of those teachers are against being held accountable...

I didn't say teachers were against accounability, but rather the unions. In fact, they're specifically designed to thwart it, among other things. They make it harder to be fired, harder for children to choose their schools and teachers, harder to test whether teachers are competent, and harder for teachers to be promoted based on anything other than seniority.

You're absolutely right that many, many teachers hate this and hate being in their respective unions. Alas, they have no choice...

 

[connor_in]

Honestly, Barrett ran a terrible campaign. He never mentioned the entire reason the recall happened (Act X, the law that took away collective bargaining). He ran on issues that Walker already had him outflanked on, and generally played it too safe to win.

Nothing personal but a couple points...
True, Barrett did not run the best campaign, note though that he won the primary while the union preferred D candidate lost, so a number of D's and the unions were honked off right after the primary and maybe not as gung ho as could have been

Act X was what riled the unions, but it was never much of a winning issue with other D's (see the metrics of the polling)...also, see their debate where Barret was asked to point to where the act damaged a school system and could not (without it systems would have laid odd more teachers, but didn't have to lay off as many with newly available funds) -> [this brings up a Union question for me...I know they prefer both, but what does a Union strive for more for their members protection-wise- have more of their members with jobs but giving up a bit of a concession OR have a chunk of their members laid off but no loss in benefits? -- without even mentioning that the concession given brings them closer to being in line with their private sector counterparts]

Act X did NOT take away collective bargaining...this is a falsehood, there is still collective bargaining for pay, but not benefits...also, it took away mandatory union dues...and the union a number of government employees belong to had a membership drop of approx 50% in one year

 

[connor_in]

I didn't say teachers were against accounability, but rather the unions. In fact, they're specifically designed to thwart it, among other things. They make it harder to be fired, harder for children to choose their schools and teachers, harder to test whether teachers are competent, and harder for teachers to be promoted based on anything other than seniority.

You're absolutely right that many, many teachers hate this and hate being in their respective unions. Alas, they have no choice...

Just an aside...most teachers have no problem with accountability, it is how that accountability is measured is the problem.

Most places rate how the class of 2012 did vs 2011 vs 2010 and so on...thus is the wrong way to go about it. What the class of 2012 needs to be judged against is them selves the year before and the year before and so on. This way instead of camparing apples to oranges, you are comparing apples to apples. Look at how that particular class improves from year to year. Sometimes you just have a brighter class one year, but the way they measure things now, that bright class punishes the teacher for an average or a below average class that follows them

 

[PerthDomer]

the 7.5 to 1 number comes from PAC spending. Due to campaign finance laws unions don't have to donate through PACs. Which means if citizens united hadn't happened unions could have flooded the campaign with money and the PACs couldn't have.

the actual spending gap was more like 2 to 1 because the RNC gave walker money and the DNC saw the writing on the wall and didn't donate anything. Believe me, there were plenty of Barrett ads in Wisconsin.

 

[irishpat183]

Or it could be that money from corporate interests from outside the state were poured into the state to help swing the election.

Liberal excuses when something goes wrong: They had more money

Of course it has nothing to do with the fact that the guy has balanced their budget for the first time in decades. Nah, couldn't be that. He just had more money.

Wonder if you'll allow that excuse for the other side of the aisle should Obama win due to his rich buddies at Goldman Sachs and private equity firms that liberals hate so much?

Maybe people were just tired of all the Union garbage (again, he won TWICE)? Why is there always some money trail BS.....

 

[irishpat183]

And Bluto, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, just directed at the left in general.

 

[k1ssme1m1r1sh]

Um Jesus would never vote republican, because he's a socialist.

 

[connor_in]

Please...

Um Jesus would never vote republican, because he's a socialist.

Please...Please...Please don't bring Jesus into a politcal ideological debate!

BTW Jesus was not American so he would not have been a member of either party or voted here