Video of the Pass Interference

[Emcee77]

So what would the result of the play have been if they called the Offensive PI and then the unsportsmanlike conduct of the FSU player removing his helmet? Would it have been 1st and goal from the 9 with 13 seconds left?

Yeah, I think so. Half the distance from the 18.

Would have made a HUGE difference. 4th and goal from the 18 is way different from 4th and goal from the 9.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So what would the result of the play have been if they called the Offensive PI and then the unsportsmanlike conduct of the FSU player removing his helmet? Would it have been 1st and goal from the 9 with 13 seconds left?

If they were calling it consistently, there should have been off-setting OPI and DPI, with the helmet removal giving us half the distance to the goal-line.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

There's no hypocrisy by YOU here. I'd bet you're in the minority of ND fans being "okay" with that no-call.

My frustration with that game has always been the placement of the ball after it was fumbled out of bounds. The push happens all the time. I'm not even sure it's illegal, is it? Maybe USC scores. Maybe they don't. But the ref placed the ball on the goal line, when it should've been placed around the 1 or 2 yard line. That's always been my gripe.

 

[kmoose]

The push happens all the time. I'm not even sure it's illegal, is it?

Mayock commented, in either the Syracuse or North Carolina game, that pushing a runner is actually legal in College football, but pulling him is not. I have no idea if that is accurate or not, but that's what he said.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

If they were calling it consistently, there should have been off-setting OPI and DPI, with the helmet removal giving us half the distance to the goal-line.

If they're off-setting, does it negate the TD or no?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

From the SBT's Bob Wieneke:

Notre Dame football coach Brian Kelly said Sunday on a teleconference that, a day after a controversial call wiped out what would have been a go-ahead touchdown in a 31-27 loss at Florida State, he has "less clarity" on the call.

"It was pretty clear what happened on the play," Kelly said after a Will Fuller offensive pass interference call wiped out an Everett Golson-to-Corey Robinson touchdown. "Florida State blew the coverage and got rewarded for it. It's unfortunate."
Late Sunday, ACC coordinator of football officials Doug Rhoads, in a video released on the conference's website, explained the call.

Rhoads, who was at the game, said that if the ball is touched before the receiver reaches the line of scrimmage, there is no pass interference. If, however, the ball is caught beyond the line of scrimmage, the contact is pass interference. Replays indicated that Robinson caught the ball beyond the line of scrimmage.

"Offensive players on pass plays are restricted from going downfield and blocking any time from the snap," Rhoads explained. "If the ball is first touched behind the line of scrimmage, that would be legal and it's OK. But if the ball is touched beyond the line, then it's pass interference."

The call was originally believed to be against C.J. Prosise, but officially it was made against Will Fuller.

"Just adds more uncertainty as to the final play," Kelly said.
Kelly did not believe that there was anything different Fuller could have done.

"No, I mean, I think he's working back inside," said Kelly, whose team dropped to 6-1. "He did not go out of his way to impede the defender. The official that was furthest from the play that has the ability to see itt saw it differently."

After the play, a Florida State player reportedly removed his helmet, which would have been unsportsmanlike conduct call had it been seen.

"They said they missed the call," Kelly said.

The Irish, who dropped to 6-1 overall and slipped to No. 7 in the Associated Press poll and No. 8 in the Amway Coaches poll, are idle this week before a Nov. 1 game against Navy at Landover, Md.

Kelly said Golson checked out fine Sunday after having to be hydrated with an IV during the second half of Saturday's game. Backup linebacker Ben Councell did not play because of a concussion suffered late in the previous week's win over North Carolina.

Sunday's talk, though was about the ending of Saturday night's game.

"What happened at the end was out of our control," Kelly said. "You've got to put them away. You can't leave it up to a decision at the end of the game."

Kelly later said he would be on a call with ACC officials and expects that he'll get "even less clarification" on the call.

 

[wizards8507]

If they're off-setting, does it negate the TD or no?

Offsetting penalties are a replay of the down from the original LOS, so yes. The unsportsmanlike would have given us an automatic first and half the distance to the goal after the fact since it was a dead ball foul.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

If they're off-setting, does it negate the TD or no?

I'm no expert on NCAA regulations, but my understanding is that the TD would stand.

 

[wizards8507]

Mayock commented, in either the Syracuse or North Carolina game, that pushing a runner is actually legal in College football, but pulling him is not. I have no idea if that is accurate or not, but that's what he said.

The rule changed in 2013. Both pushing and pulling were illegal in 2005. The rule now states: "The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress."

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Mayock commented, in either the Syracuse or North Carolina game, that pushing a runner is actually legal in College football, but pulling him is not. I have no idea if that is accurate or not, but that's what he said.

I remember this. And it came right after a play where a ND RB was pushed a crossed the first down line, no? No gripes from ND fans on that one. LOL.

Speaking of hypocrisies: I'm trying to bite my tongue about the FSU coaches getting in the ear of the refs about the pick plays, when just last week BK got in the ear of the ref on roughing the snapper that helped ND win the UNC game. I think these actions are just a part of the game. You win some, you lose some. Overall, my biggest gripe about this FSU/ND game is how it seemed the entirety of game's conclusion was botched (the OPI, non-call on the DPI, non-call on the helmet removal, etc). Leaves a very sour taste in your mouth because it was such an epic game. If this were against Rice or Northwestern, I wouldn't care near as much.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

Offsetting penalties are a replay of the down from the original LOS, so yes. The unsportsmanlike would have given us an automatic first and half the distance to the goal after the fact since it was a dead ball foul.

I'm no expert on NCAA regulations, but my understanding is that the TD would stand.

LOL. Thanks? I think.

 

[BleedBlueGold]

The rule changed in 2013. Both pushing and pulling were illegal in 2005. The rule now states: "The ball carrier shall not grasp a teammate; and no other player of his team shall grasp, pull, or lift him to assist him in forward progress."

Welp, now I'm pissed!

 

[GowerND11]

The push rule basically clears up what helping a runner is. We see all the time big linemen pushing the pile when the RB is stood up, thus gaining an extra 3 yards. That's always happened, and, technically, could have been a penalty since it aided the runner. Now they just got rid of the pushing penalty, because it's subjective, and rarely inforced, to just include physically pulling or throwing a player.

 

[Luckylucci]

I'm no expert on NCAA regulations, but my understanding is that the TD would stand.

Thats what I thought as well.

 

[NDisme]

The whole didn't make an effort to avoid contact. What did you want either player to do really it's not like the play took 5 -7 seconds, it was a quick play, darby jumped fullers route to get in front of him fuller reacted like most would when someone jumps in front of them. I just get disgusted because i know in basketball unless it is a can't miss u have to be blind to miss it foul, you swallow the whistle and let the players dictate the outcome, there were so many variables in the play for it o be a can't miss call, and if that is the case let the players determine it. Because if you do, all that is determined in my eyes is that FSU blew a coverage and we took advantage

 

[Luckylucci]

Yeah, I think so. Half the distance from the 18.

Would have made a HUGE difference. 4th and goal from the 18 is way different from 4th and goal from the 9.

I actually think it would have been 1st and goal at the 9 with 13 seconds. We would have had time to run at least two plays from the 9yd line. Unreal that they chalk that up to "we missed that call."

 

[Emcee77]

I actually think it would have been 1st and goal at the 9 with 13 seconds. We would have had time to run at least two plays from the 9yd line. Unreal that they chalk that up to "we missed that call."

OMG you might be right. Wow.

 

[wizards8507]

I'm no expert on NCAA regulations, but my understanding is that the TD would stand.

LOL. Thanks? I think.

Thats what I thought as well.

http://usafootball.com/bill-lemonnier/ask-official-offsetting-penalties-negate-play-every-time

Offsetting penalties mean "that play never happened." What's also interesting is that a minor penalty for one team can offset a slew of penalties for another team. So if a defender is offside, then the offense proceeds to incur holding, hands to the face, intentional grounding, and offensive pass interference on the same play, the penalties ALL cancel out and you replay the down.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

LOL. Thanks? I think.

After reading a bit more on it, seems like I'm probably wrong. OFD's Larz breaks down the game-winning TD (that wasn't) here:

From an X's and O's perspective, Notre Dame wins this play. No doubt about it. They have the right play call for the type of defense of FSU is using. Unfortunately, it's not always just about X's and O's.

The ball has just left Everett Golson's hand (blue circle). Will Fuller (# 7, red arrow) and CJ Prosise (# 20, yellow arrow) are both engaged with their respective defenders. This is a problem for Notre Dame. When the ball is in the air, the Notre Dame receivers can't be engaged with the DB's (regardless of who initiated the contact) or at the very least must be working to get away from contact. At the crucial moment they don't appear to be disengaging. That's why the call was made.

I don't know if it was the right call or not from a rule book perspective. From an X's and O's perspective, what Fuller and Prosise did isn't critical. They weren't the focal point of this play. They were at best a third and fourth option. Their patterns were primarily designed to isolate Robinson's route. Even if Fuller and Prosise don't touch the defenders, FSU is in trouble on this play. Notre Dame has them flanked because of alignment, not because of contact. Oddly enough, this is being called a pick play, but the player responsible for covering Robinson (green circle) was never touched by anyone.

No matter what you believe about the final call, this was a tough way to lose for the Irish. It was also a great win for FSU, and an immensely entertaining game.

Read the whole thing if you have time.

And here's what Murtaugh had to say in his game review:

I won't spend much time on this because Larz has a full post breaking down the play and call from the officials. My opinion is that you simply do not throw a flag on that play. If one of the FSU defensive backs shows even the slightest attempt to break towards Robinson the flag would be much easier to swallow. Schematically, the Seminoles got beat.

It would be different if a Seminoles DB is breaking toward Robinson and then gets picked or held on contact initiated by one of the Irish receivers. There's no doubt in my mind that Prosise goes into blocking mode and by the letter of the law a flag could be thrown there. But Ramsey initiates contact, plays just as physical, and makes zero attempt to break toward Robinson. In the heat of the moment, in that big of a stage, I don't believe a ref should bail out a player who was never going to make a play on Robinson anyway.

That's just a really, really tough flag to throw at this point in the game. You let the players decide the game in that moment and they took it away from them.

Then there's the fact that P.J. Williams took his helmet off which should have given the ball back to Notre Dame with a first down at the 9-yard line. I don't think it's any sort of conspiracy it's just really unfortunate that a ref inserted himself into the game for something that wasn't egregious or clearly forced a Seminole from making a play on the ball.

 

[Sherm Sticky]

We got hosed. It's Monday morning time to move on.

 

[phork]

I'm no expert on NCAA regulations, but my understanding is that the TD would stand.

The TD would not stand. PI on the offense which is a 10 yard foul back to the 18 and then personal foul (here is the key) AFTER THE PLAY is a dead ball foul. Half the distance to the goal (9 Yardline ish) and a 1st down.

Had their been a personal foul called during the play, the penalties would offset and the TD would stand.

Just an FYI:

First-and-10

1. Notre Dame coach Brian Kelly remained angry on Sunday about the offensive pass interference call that wiped off the Corey Robinson touchdown that would have lifted the Fighting Irish to a win at Florida State. The day after the game, Kelly was more confused. “Actually, I have less clarity,” he said on a teleconference. “I guess it was actually called on Will Fuller, not C.J [Prosise]. Just adds more uncertainty as to the final play.”

The penalty call was on Fuller for Darby running into him as he broke inside. All these idiot media talking heads calling it on CJ are misdirected.

 

[Emcee77]

After reading a bit more on it, seems like I'm probably wrong. OFD's Larz breaks down the game-winning TD (that wasn't) here:



Read the whole thing if you have time.

And here's what Murtaugh had to say in his game review:

Exactly, there's the rub. The penalty, if there was one, had no impact on the play at all. We scored the TD because of a busted coverage, not because of any "pick" by Fuller or Prosise. I think you gotta keep your flag in your pocket there.

 

[phork]

After reading a bit more on it, seems like I'm probably wrong. OFD's Larz breaks down the game-winning TD (that wasn't) here:



Read the whole thing if you have time.

And here's what Murtaugh had to say in his game review:

Actually Darby is responsible for Robinson, he tried to jump inside to make the play and was "picked" by Fuller, #26 is supposed to pick up Fuller as the coverage shifts.

And if Darby picks ND instead of FSU.... MIND BLOWN

 

[Jerry]

The whole didn't make an effort to avoid contact. What did you want either player to do really it's not like the play took 5 -7 seconds, it was a quick play, darby jumped fullers route to get in front of him fuller reacted like most would when someone jumps in front of them. I just get disgusted because i know in basketball unless it is a can't miss u have to be blind to miss it foul, you swallow the whistle and let the players dictate the outcome, there were so many variables in the play for it o be a can't miss call, and if that is the case let the players determine it. Because if you do, all that is determined in my eyes is that FSU blew a coverage and we took advantage

Yeah they kept playing it in slow motion and freezing it during the broadcast, which is sort of misleading to the viewer. When you watch it at full speed Fuller gets engaged with Darby and then turns back to the ball almost instantly.

 

[IrishLax]

The funniest part of this being called a "pick" play is that it wasn't.

A pick play is about picking the defender covering the WR you're trying to get open. Darby simply stepped up and jammed Fuller while the other DB jammed (and grabbed and held Prosise)... and the 3rd defensive back covered no one. Basically, the 3rd defender thought they were "zoning up" while the other two though they were playing man. So no one "picked" a player trying to cover Robinson.

 

[wizards8507]

The penalty call was on Fuller for Darby running into him as he broke inside. All these idiot media talking heads calling it on CJ are misdirected.

Wrong. This has since been clarified. The ACC confirmed it was on CJ.

 

[IrishLax]

Actually Darby is responsible for Robinson, he tried to jump inside to make the play and was "picked" by Fuller, #26 is supposed to pick up Fuller as the coverage shifts.

And if Darby picks ND instead of FSU.... MIND BLOWN

IMO, what happened was really simple. They originally had man-to-man assignments. Then ND shifted and #26 tries to communicate to them that they are going to "zone it up" (i.e. pass off receivers).

Darby doesn't get that call and instead simply jumps Fuller to the inside and jams him... when he should've passed him off and worked to the outside on Robinson. The play was over the minute Darby jumped up and to the inside on Fuller.

 

[Cackalacky]

Wrong. This has since been clarified. The ACC confirmed it was on CJ.

BK said he was told it was on Fuller....

 

[wizards8507]

BK said he was told it was on Fuller....

Yeah it's gone back and forth like 12 times.

 

[Ndaccountant]

IMO, what happened was really simple. They originally had man-to-man assignments. Then ND shifted and #26 tries to communicate to them that they are going to "zone it up" (i.e. pass off receivers).

Darby doesn't get that call and instead simply jumps Fuller to the inside and jams him... when he should've passed him off and worked to the outside on Robinson. The play was over the minute Darby jumped up and to the inside on Fuller.

+1

the contact everyone sees is simply Darby playing physical to stop the slant route resulting in two guys covering one. Game over (or at least should have been). BK was right, blown coverage and blown call.