Video of the Pass Interference

[tussin]

Listening to the Shutdown Fullcast on EDSBS. They are trolling so hard and my head is about to explode.

Whatever, Spencer Hall and Ryan Nanni are Florida guys. So I suppose they are desperate for something to make fun of.

 

[Guest]

You honestly don't think that Fuller and Prosise were running "rub" routes?

That is a potentially-loaded question that I will answer after a caveat about what I think the play design was in this particular case. In this case, you cannot definitively say that the WR were running picks. A pick, in this case, I am defining as the intent to get in the DB way as the only objective. The reason I say this is because film review of this particular play shows that neither WR ran a classic pick. I am not going to go into detail because that is all myself and many others have done in this thread. The screencaps and videos are there for you to review. Could they have intended to run straight picks on the play? In both cases, the DB initiated contact, so it would be an incredibly poorly designed pick play if that was the intent.

In general, it doesn't matter if they were or not. What matters is if when they ran them, they committed a penalty during play. Teams run WR across the middle of the field, for example, to create confusion in the DB traffic to free a WR for a catch. That is strategy and every team does those sorts of things, and referees allow them to within the scope of the rules established.

Just FYI, I was a ref in soccer for 10 years. I was also a player for many years, and coached games as well. I started working kids games and eventually adult league games, all the time using international FIFA rules. I understand, from an official's standpoint, a few things: 1) how hard it is to get every call 'right', 2) calling games in the 'spirit and intent' of the rules in every single real life situation, 3) judging player or coach intent, and finally 4) keeping everyone happy on the sidelines with the calls. I understand sometimes there are busted calls because I made some and had to learn from it; however, this one was really poor in my opinion as a former official (albeit in another sport) and not just as a staunch ND fan.

I am also an auditor in real life (last 10 years after starting off in IT), and understand the need for rules and regulations. That is the focus of my entire adult professional life. But my time as an auditor has taught me that judgement means as much to the quality of enforced rules as the black and white of the rule itself. And so does convention and culture in applying the rules consistently and fairly.

 

[Emcee77]

Newsweek's John Walters just published an interview with Herbstreit on ND v. FSU:


So Herby admits that it happens all the time and is rarely called, but is apparently cool with it deciding the biggest game of the season because of some bullsh!t groupthink? That's not an argument.

Politically correct b.s. He's trying to placate us by saying it's a shame the ref made the call without offending FSU fans by saying it was the wrong call. Bullsh!t.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Listening to the Shutdown Fullcast on EDSBS. They are trolling so hard and my head is about to explode.

Whatever, Spencer Hall and Ryan Nanni are Florida guys. So I suppose they are desperate for something to make fun of.

I'm close to unfollowing both of them. Some of their stuff is funny, but they're particularly merciless toward ND, and they're constantly tweeting obnoxious sh!t at the Pope's account.

They're like the bastard love children of /r/cfb and /r/athiesm.

 

[koonja]

Regardless, it's good that it's getting so much attention, so I guess it doesn't bother me that lots of people say it's a penalty. F the haters. That's how I roll!

FWIW, in Columbus, everyone was pulling the the Irish, and everyone thinks it shouldn't have been a penalty. The bars errupted when the play was called back.

 

[Guest]

1. Situational Discretion-- It was a decisive play in arguably the biggest game of the season. FSU had busted coverage, and none of the three DBs on that side of the field were even attempting to cover Robinson (which calls into question whether any of them were "impeded" in the first place). Since the contact at issue had no impact on the outcome of the play, any ref worth his salt would have swallowed his whistle there.

1. 
   
   Bingo. That is the absurdity of the whole situation. Even if the ND WRs tackled the two FSU DBs, the third one blew the coverage. Instant TD regardless, because the other two guys weren't every going to get there. And, in fact, by the film neither of them even tried to.

 

[tussin]

I'm close to unfollowing both of them. Some of their stuff is funny, but they're particularly merciless toward ND, and they're constantly tweeting obnoxious sh!t at the Pope's account.

They're like the bastard love children of /r/cfb and /r/athiesm.

Never was into Spencer Hall, but I was a big Nanni fan before he unmasked himself and left the legal world.

The Solid Verbal was and remains my favorite college football podcast. However, the quality of the show has degraded a little ever since Nanni moved to SB Nation and Dan Rubenstein became his personal butt-buddy.

He tries sooo hard on the podcast to succeed with the Nanni brand of snarky college football humor and typically fails. I think it hurts a lot of the objective fan takes that the show was known for when it first started.

 

[gkIrish]

Next person that brings up another poster instead of providing some substance is getting time off. That means you wyvrn.

As an aside, if you are going to report a post, don't then go on to respond to it.

 

[IrishinSyria]

The fact that we are still having this discussion is all the evidence needed to show that it was an all-time terrible call.

Not sure how a follows b here. The fact that we are still having this discussion means that, if anything, the rule for offensive pass interference needs to be rewritten to clarify what, exactly, the receiver's responsibility is when he is either a)being jammed or b) has his route cut off.

My impression is that both by the letter of the rule and by the first impression of the play, the ref got it right. It's only when you slow down the play and start looking at multiple angles and analyzing Florida State's defensive coverage for the play does an objective observer see why the penalty was a bad one.

I don't envy the refs in this situation. They're not allowed to go to instant replay and they know that the game rests on their decision. "Let the players play" is a bad argument, because erroneously not calling a PI would have had as big of an impact on the game as calling it.

At the end of the day, it was a close call and Florida State's busted coverage screwed us. With Prosise and Fuller both being jammed and Robinson WIDE open, I can understand how a ref would conclude that some sort of pick was being thrown. Seeing as the rule puts all of the burden for avoiding contact on the offensive player, it's impossible to point to the rulebook and show that the refs were wrong. By the letter, they weren't. But after watching the play 100 times, I agree with the sentiment in this thread that ND got screwed. FSU had no chance of making the play from the second the ball was snapped. In a crowded end zone with D backs playing tight coverage, it's tough to imagine how receivers can avoid contact. And yet, that's the rule. IMO, the rules committee should spend a lot of time this summer watching this play and coming up with language that doesn't penalize an offense for outmaneuvering an aggressive D.

 

[Grahambo]

Stewart Mandel just asserted (again) in his most recent mail bag that the call was "clearly correct", and Rick Reilly just tweeted the same fvcking thing. Virtually every sports writer is uncritically repeating the same bullsh!t, and several are going so far as taunting us for believing in an anti-ND officiating conspiracy (seriously though, where are these conspiracy theorists?)

There are three objectively reasonable grounds for criticizing the call:

1. Situational Discretion-- It was a decisive play in arguably the biggest game of the season. FSU had busted coverage, and none of the three DBs on that side of the field were even attempting to cover Robinson (which calls into question whether any of them were "impeded" in the first place). Since the contact at issue had no impact on the outcome of the play, any ref worth his salt would have swallowed his whistle there.
   
2. Not OPI-- As the WSBT video showed, OPI itself is questionable, especially when you take FSU's busted coverage into account, since none of their three DBs were actually impeded from covering Robinson.
   
3. Missed Calls on FSU-- Even if you dismiss the first two arguments, the ACC admitted to missing the Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty on Williams for removing his helmet. And there's a case to be made for DPI against Ramsey and/or Darby as well.

So even if we make every possible inference in FSU's favor, ND still should have at least gotten 1st and goal at FSU's 9 with 13s remaining, which is enough time for 2-3 more shots at the endzone. That's a pretty major fvcking mistake by the officials any way you slice it.

And yet I've not read a single sports writer allude to any of the above. Some have called it a "controversial" call, but far more have simply asserted the refs were right, with a few going so far as to taunt us for being upset by it. Since perception is reality in CFB, this is not simply adding insult to injury.

If you're going to write about the call, be a professional and do some fvcking research. There are plenty of rational bases for criticizing it.

I've stopped following and/or listening to most of the mainstream sports media. Most of them have become too obnoxious to follow. Most go around trolling and Twitter has made a lot of them unbearable. They won't say anything about it because they need FSU to remain the focal point for the rest of the season. They feel the need to have a 'bad guy' to write about for the rest of the season. It took most of us a few seconds to look back at the video to see how bad of a call it was.

Most of the companies that these guys/gals work for are all about business so whatever keeps the bottom line up and the money flowing. I was watching the DP Show today and he was talking about how most of the suits are nothing but businessmen. He mentioned the perceived SEC bias and said if money was to be made in the B1G then they would be all over the B1G. He said ESPN dropped hockey because they weren't making money on it. He said they are slowly pushing NASCAR away because the money isn't what it used to be.

 

[IrishLax]

Stewart Mandel just asserted (again) in his most recent mail bag that the call was "clearly correct", and Rick Reilly just tweeted the same fvcking thing. Virtually every sports writer is uncritically repeating the same bullsh!t, and several are going so far as taunting us for believing in an anti-ND officiating conspiracy (seriously though, where are these conspiracy theorists?)

There are three objectively reasonable grounds for criticizing the call:

1. Situational Discretion-- It was a decisive play in arguably the biggest game of the season. FSU had busted coverage, and none of the three DBs on that side of the field were even attempting to cover Robinson (which calls into question whether any of them were "impeded" in the first place). Since the contact at issue had no impact on the outcome of the play, any ref worth his salt would have swallowed his whistle there.
   
2. Not OPI-- As the WSBT video showed, OPI itself is questionable, especially when you take FSU's busted coverage into account, since none of their three DBs were actually impeded from covering Robinson.
   
3. Missed Calls on FSU-- Even if you dismiss the first two arguments, the ACC admitted to missing the Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty on Williams for removing his helmet. And there's a case to be made for DPI against Ramsey and/or Darby as well.

So even if we make every possible inference in FSU's favor, ND still should have at least gotten 1st and goal at FSU's 9 with 13s remaining, which is enough time for 2-3 more shots at the endzone. That's a pretty major fvcking mistake by the officials any way you slice it.

And yet I've not read a single sports writer allude to any of the above. Some have called it a "controversial" call, but far more have simply asserted the refs were right, with a few going so far as to taunt us for being upset by it. Since perception is reality in CFB, this is not simply adding insult to injury.

If you're going to write about the call, be a professional and do some fvcking research. There are plenty of rational bases for criticizing it.

Truth is none of them bothered to watch any of the alternative camera angles, and it's once you watch those that it becomes painfully obvious no one did anything wrong and if anything it should've been defensive holding OR illegal contact on FSU DBs.

It's because everyone watched a sh*t camera angle that they believe what they believe. Once you see the still frame of Prosise being mugged and Darby actively jumping to the inside on Fuller there is no question that it was a horrific call.

Brady Quinn embarrassed Mike Pereira on TV about the call. Especially since Pereira's online video links on it when it happened were so woefully inaccurate.

And to their credit, I have heard many analysts break down why the call was terrible. Dan Le Batard said on his show that Brian Kelly was 100% correct and that the only reason the call was made was because FSU blew the coverage and you had a ref itching to make the call. He pointed out how Prosise did nothing but try to run a route and got grabbed+held, and how if the DB didn't blow the coverage and jump Fuller there would've been no contact.

So there are some out there who actually paid attention to the play. Plus the majority of people who defended ND in public polls. Just is what it is... once a TV personality takes a stance, they aren't changing it. It's mostly the fault of ABC not having any better camera angles to show live.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

So there are some out there who actually paid attention to the play. Plus the majority of people who defended ND in public polls. Just is what it is... once a TV personality takes a stance, they aren't changing it. It's mostly the fault of ABC not having any better camera angles to show live.

I must be reading the wrong people then. To a man, every single national sports writer I follow on Twitter has parroted the same Pereira-esque* bullsh!t about it clearly being the right call based on the letter of the rules and the same crappy camera angle.

Why does no one care? This was by far the most influential call of the season so far, and as we're all painfully aware, there are lots of objective sources making the case that it was an indefensibly bad one. But no one at the national level is interested, apparently.

*Pereira is the worst. Can anyone recall him ever arguing that an official was wrong? They ought to change his title from "analyst" to "advocate".

 

[Grahambo]

I must be reading the wrong people then. To a man, every single national sports writer I follow on Twitter has parroted the same Pereira-esque* bullsh!t about it clearly being the right call based on the letter of the rules and the same crappy camera angle.

Why does no one care? This was by far the most influential call of the season so far, and as we're all painfully aware, there are lots of objective sources making the case that it was an indefensibly bad call. But no one at the national level is interested, apparently.

*Pereira is the worst. Can anyone recall him ever arguing that an official was wrong? They ought to change his title from "analyst" to "advocate".

I must follow the same people then. I couldn't find one mainstream guy that agrees that it was a shit call. Pereira is garbage, even in NFL games. Former NFL referee Mike Carey does the same job but for CBS. He does a good job in breaking things down (Not for the ND play; just NFL plays in general).

 

[Circa]

OFD Films: Iso Cam - Notre Dame-FSU Offensive Pass Interference - One Foot Down


Absolute best break down of the last play I've seen.

Yes. It really is. The fractions of a second we are talking about, from snap, to throw, to catch are the fractions we keep talking about. The play happened in about 1-2 sec's at the most, and when the snap came the throw was Quick! The problem I have, other than I don't feel these refs were good enough to even see an infraction, It's that they would have called a hold on on of them (Fuller/Prosise), If EG had ran it in. This is the misery of that exact play. There are no answers until one of those on duty that evening, writes a book.

 

[Circa]

I must be reading the wrong people then. To a man, every single national sports writer I follow on Twitter has parroted the same Pereira-esque* bullsh!t about it clearly being the right call based on the letter of the rules and the same crappy camera angle.

Why does no one care? This was by far the most influential call of the season so far, and as we're all painfully aware, there are lots of objective sources making the case that it was an indefensibly bad one. But no one at the national level is interested, apparently.

*Pereira is the worst. Can anyone recall him ever arguing that an official was wrong? They ought to change his title from "analyst" to "advocate".

I want to know were to read the objectively good stuff? The only positive I have seen and It's a big one, ESPN has been gettin me wet at times with their talk, of how we have come around and that we are definitely back. This is ESPN I'm talkin about tho.. also TV

 

[Guest]

Next person that brings up another poster instead of providing some substance is getting time off. That means you wyvrn.

As an aside, if you are going to report a post, don't then go on to respond to it.

You can't agree with a poster and make a comment? People do that all the time here. It's half of the posts... but ok since you are the mod.

For example, half of my repartee with kmoose is arguing back and forth over points. Is that not allowed? Or what is the limit in a thread? That's a serious question, by the way. I haven't seen any posted rules on the subject I would like some clarification of what is/not allowed, if you don't mind.

For the record, I haven't reported anybody in my entire time here ... I assume you directed that comment at someone else (or in general)?

 

[gkIrish]

You can't agree with a poster and make a comment? People do that all the time here. It's half of the posts... but ok since you are the mod.

For example, half of my repartee with kmoose is arguing back and forth over points. Is that not allowed? Or what is the limit in a thread? That's a serious question, by the way. I haven't seen any posted rules on the subject I would like some clarification of what is/not allowed, if you don't mind.

For the record, I haven't reported anybody in my entire time here ... I assume you directed that comment at someone else (or in general)?

You made multiple posts that did nothing but poke jabs at another poster. No substance + direct jabs at another poster = bad.

 

[Guest]

You made multiple posts that did nothing but poke jabs at another poster. No substance + direct jabs at another poster = bad.

Ok apologies. I shouldn't have done that.

 

[Bogtrotter07]

You made multiple posts that did nothing but poke jabs at another poster. No substance + direct jabs at another poster = bad.

Did I ever tell you about the soggy fries, and burger I got at the BK in the Student Center at ND? Wouldn't have been so bad if the manager weren't there glowering over the whole thing! Surly galoot he was, I'm telling you!

 

[BillyIrish]

You honestly don't think that Fuller and Prosise were running "rub" routes?

It's actually the second time kelly has dialed up the play this season. The first TD against Purdue to Fuller should look familiar. It was used to defeat a zone coverage that time. The key to this particular play design is the X (Fuller) expanding before running a slant. In the play vs Purdue , Golson read it correctly and when the linebacker started to run with Koyack he hit fuller on the slant.

 

[kmoose]

It's actually the second time kelly has dialed up the play this season. The first TD against Purdue to Fuller should look familiar. It was used to defeat a zone coverage that time. The key to this particular play design is the X (Fuller) expanding before running a slant. In the play vs Purdue , Golson read it correctly and when the linebacker started to run with Koyack he hit fuller on the slant.

Well, in this case, the play was designed to take advantage of man coverage. That's why the shift, before the snap, into the bunch formation. The whole design of that play is to create a bunch of traffic that the inside defender will have to navigate, to get outside to his man responsibility. It's not necessarily designed to "pick" the DB, but to make him late getting out there, giving the receiver just a few seconds to catch the ball and turn upfield for the 1 or 2 yards they need. Everyone knows that is the play, and everyone knows that receivers are taught different techniques for making it even harder for the DB. The officials are obviously aware of this, and are watching these plays with an eye towards not allowing the receivers to blatantly pick anyone. Many people have rightly pointed out that this type of contact is hardly ever called. What they have failed to recognize, though, is that the receivers hardly ever put their shoulder into the man covering them, and try to drive through the guy. They are usually content to simply insert themselves between the defender and the receiver. The aggressive reaction to contact, by both Prosise and Fuller, is what led to the flag, in my opinion. That's not to excuse the officials, though. They missed Prosise being held, and more egregiously, they missed the unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for the guy removing his helmet. My original point was just that there were some calls that went ND's way, over the course of the game, that helped us to get ahead and stay there. In addition, there were quite a few times that ND had a chance to make a play that, had they made it, would have put them in a position to not have to rely on a late TD to win. This loss was a gut punch, for sure. But this team is still well positioned to make the playoffs. Keep your eye on the prize!