Ukraine

T Town Tommy

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I definitely wish things were different, but I wouldn't risk one American life or consider war for a region who voted to become part of another country. I realize there have been some fishy moves by the Russians, but we can only fight politics with politics. Now if they make any moves with force, not a show of force, but actual force then that would be a whole different scary ballgame.

I don't think any troop involvement is necessary on the part of the US just yet. But the talk has to get tougher from Washington. At some point, our President may be faced with Russian troops moving into eastern Ukraine. The justification the Russians have used thus far can very easily be applied to that part of Ukraine as well. Especially when the people are staring down the barrel of a gun.

Our President needs to toughen up and explain to Putin there is a line and that crossing it would not be in Russia's best interest. As of now, everything Obama has done has been scripted and very predictable. Putin has taken him to school time and again. Time for Obama to either stand up or continue to get his lunch money taken.
 

GoIrish41

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I definitely wish things were different, but I wouldn't risk one American life or consider war for a region who voted to become part of another country. I realize there have been some fishy moves by the Russians, but we can only fight politics with politics. Now if they make any moves with force, not a show of force, but actual force then that would be a whole different scary ballgame.

I'm with you there Bob. This is a tough situation. There are shades of the rise of the Germans prior to WWII, but after more than a decade of two wars, I don't think the country has the appetite for another conflict right now. Most are happy just blaming Obama for his weakness but few are talking about stepping into the middle of this thing with anything other than progressively harder slaps on Putin's wrist. I pray this doesn't turn violent.
 

GoIrish41

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Actually, no. Crimea has always been an autonomous region of Ukraine. They have always had the right to break away from the rest of the country.

Was not aware of this. Is this in their constitution (or whatever they call their code of laws)?
 

woolybug25

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I don't think any troop involvement is necessary on the part of the US just yet. But the talk has to get tougher from Washington. At some point, our President may be faced with Russian troops moving into eastern Ukraine. The justification the Russians have used thus far can very easily be applied to that part of Ukraine as well. Especially when the people are staring down the barrel of a gun.

Our President needs to toughen up and explain to Putin there is a line and that crossing it would not be in Russia's best interest. As of now, everything Obama has done has been scripted and very predictable. Putin has taken him to school time and again. Time for Obama to either stand up or continue to get his lunch money taken.

How is this true? What is not in Russia's best interest? Who is going to do more than that? What exactly do you want us to be "tougher" with? There is literally nothing else we can do other than military involvement in the situation. A situation I may add, has little to do with us or our dealings with the region.

Please don't come back with "he shouldn't have moved missile defense, blah, blah, blah" either. What exactly do you suggest we do differently with our actions than what we are currently doing?

The reality is that almost no one east of the Crimea border wants us to do a damn thing. They want to be Russian. I say that if the rest of the Ukraine can't do anything about it, and Crimea wants to go. Then we need to mind our own damn business.
 

BobD

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Russia sucks, so does being beaten at your own game.
 

BobD

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Do you realize the US and NATO were the ones who started with the "fishy moves" ?

I'm sure both sides could point fingers and come up with a good argument. What do you have in mind as the first fishy move?
 

IrishinTN

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This...
World War 3: Russia Could Turn ‘United States Into Radioactive Ash,’ Says State TV

Made me think of this...
wHylQRVN2Qs
 

BGIF

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Heating Up

Heating Up

Protesters in eastern Ukraine seize weapons, police say - CNN.com

Pro-Russian supporters seized weapons in Lugansk, Ukraine.

Demonstrations in Kharkov and Donetsk.

And, ...

On Sunday, a Russian soldier shot dead a Ukrainian navy officer in a officer's dorm in Novofedorivka in Crimea, Ukraine's defense ministry said in a statement posted on its website. The Ukrainian officer was getting ready to leave for mainland Ukraine from the Black Sea peninsula
 
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Cackalacky

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So what's going on with this Crimea Referendum vote? Anyone privy?

Sevastopol and Crimean parliament vote to join Russia, referendum to be held in 10 days — RT News
The more I read about this, the more I believe it was a concerted effort for Russia to annex Crimea.

I want to believe you Buster but this has Sudetenland written all over it. President Merkel recently said Putin is pretty much a psycho.

article-2571653-1C0506C500000578-23_615x358.jpg


This is a very real possibility.

Isn't Crimea a part of the Ukraine? If the referendum is approved then they democratically annexed a portion of Ukraine. Its a very slippery slope if it is allowed to happen. Also the annexation would effectively diminish Ukraine's access to the Black Sea. Russia would/could control access to Donetsk too. How long would it be until Donetsk wants to join Russia to get access to the Black Sea?. I know its a lot a hypotheticals but there are definite economic/societal paths here. There is very little stopping Donetsk from saying "Come and get us Russia, please" if that referendum passes. The main speedbump would be outside players tolerating it.

I agree with China's relationship but they have not thrown any military weight around recently that I am aware of.

I tried to follow your link in the other post above but it was broken.

I guess what I am getting at is there are other regions that are much more pro-Russian than Crimea (obviously Russia has military interests there and economic interests as well). If Crimea is annexed democratically, what or who would stop the other regions from doing so as well (like Donetsk's region: 90%+ pro-Russia voting)? Would China step up or would the West negate the annex referendum? I am not questioning you, just asking questions in general. Is anyone willing to stop a democratic process?


To the day wooly....to the day.....
 
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Cackalacky

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It doesn't make Putin's moves any less self-defeating.

Putin has already won on Ukraine: Column

While I agree it will be self-defeating if the EU and US decide to act against him forcibly, I don't think the US or EU have the stomach for another global military action. Our bank account certainly can't handle it. There are several points in the link above that I agree with. If Russia continues to pick up pro-russian areas via democratic process (whether they manipulate the results or not) while being patient, I am not sure what the US and EU will actually end up accomplishing by acquiescing.
 
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Cackalacky

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What, exactly, was their involvement?

Its been fairly well documented that the EU (mainly Britain) and US and its spy agencies supported and aided the initial uprising in Ukraine. Much of what Russia has done has been in response to that.
 

kmoose

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Its been fairly well documented that the EU (mainly Britain) and US and its spy agencies supported and aided the initial uprising in Ukraine. Much of what Russia has done has been in response to that.

I don't doubt that the West had some involvement. My point was that enrico said that it was clear that the West was involved. So, if it is so clear, he should be able to detail their exact involvement?
 
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Cackalacky

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How and why the U.S. government aided a coup led by neo-Nazis in Ukraine

Coup d’Etat in Ukraine: Bias and Hypocrisy of the Western Liberal “Left” Media | Global Research

Ukraine: Russia’s Response to a US-EU Sponsored Coup d’Etat. Violation of International Law? | Global Research


Washington's Role in the Ukrainian Coup & How it May Spin Out of Control | SCG News
You've probably heard about the leaked audio where the Victoria Nuland from the U.S. State Department got caught saying "F*@k the E.U."., but the focus on the foul language and the apparent disrespect for the E.U. is an intentional distraction fostered by the mainstream media to draw people's attention away from something far more significant that the leaked revealed. If you listen to the conversation in full (see video below) it becomes clear that the U.S. State department is already handpicking puppets for the new government in Ukraine."
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/2QxZ8t3V_bk?feature=player_embedded" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

The whole affair is just another chapter in the US and Britain's post Cold War policy of bringing in ex-USSR countries into the EU and NATO.
 
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Buster Bluth

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It's all self-defeating because it isolates Russia. No one outside of Moscow and Minsk is a fan of all of this. It's hurting Russian billionaires' bank accounts. The time for land grabs is over, it's a global market and isolation hurts far more in the long run than any land gains possible now. Do you think the billionaires in control care about conquering eastern Ukraine, or even Latvia? Fuck. No.



Its been fairly well documented that the EU (mainly Britain) and US and its spy agencies supported and aided the initial uprising in Ukraine. Much of what Russia has done has been in response to that.

Exactly. We're some bad mofos when it comes to constantly trying to topple other governments. Have any of you read about their pseudo-Twitter in Cuba? You guys should give Dan Carlin's latest podcast a listen.
 
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Cackalacky

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It's all self-defeating because it isolates Russia. No one outside of Moscow and Minsk is a fan of all of this. It's hurting Russian billionaires' bank accounts. The time for land grabs is over, it's a global market and isolation hurts far more in the long run than any land gains possible now. Do you think the billionaires in control care about conquering eastern Ukraine, or even Latvia? Fuck. No.

I see Russia coming out on top if they can get control of the Ukrainian energy supply infrastructure and resources. Although eastern Ukraine is an unmitigated environmental disaster, there are lots of energy sources and infrastructure in place in Donetsk, Crimea and several other large pro-Russian provinces. Obtaining those would be very beneficial to many rich people in Russia.

While Latvia does not produce much energy it is a large consumer of Russian sources and as well as a key exporter of Russian energy and products. It would be very beneficial for Russia to obtain unfettered access to the Baltic Sea and the Black Sea ports.
 

IrishLax

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Some G7 countries seem to want to isolate Russia but many G20 countries have showed their support.

Isolating Russia could have some potential devastating consequences for the US.

Like what? I can't think of a single one.
 

Whiskeyjack

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I can easily think of one that has already started and gaining momentum... energy deals in currencies that are not the US$.

That hardly qualifies as "devastating".
 
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Cackalacky

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Russian moves in Ukraine's Crimea a familiar pattern
Examination of Russia's policy pattern.

"Russia has not made any decision on invading Ukraine yet," says Fyodor Lukyanov, editor of the Russia in Global Affairs journal and chairman of the Council on Foreign and Defense Policy. "But there is a demonstration that in case this revolution spreads further into (Eastern Ukraine) regions, then Russia will act."

A bill introduced recently by Russian lawmakers would simplify the process of incorporating new territories into the country. If passed, the bill would allow territories to join Russia through a referendum, sidestepping international treaties.
 
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Cackalacky

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Now ANOTHER pro-Russia part of Ukraine calls itself a 'sovereign republic' | Mail Online

GazProm turning up the economic heat on Ukraine too.
Russia's natural gas producer today claimed Ukraine missed a midnight deadline to reduce its $2.2 billion debt for its supplies.
Gazprom last week increased the gas price for Ukraine by 80 percent, to $485 per 1,000 cubic metres. It charges European clients $370 to $380.

The Ukrainian government insists Russia increased gas prices for political reasons.
A Gazprom spokesman declined to say what action, if any, the company would take if Kiev did not meet the deadline - which falls on the seventh day of each month - for settling its monthly bill.
Ukraine has missed deadlines in the past without punishment but Gazprom has suggested it might ask Kiev to pay in advance for gas, which could cripple the country's infrastructure.
Gazprom previously cut off gas supplies to Ukraine in price disputes in the winters of 2005 and 2008.
Meanwhile there has been an outcry among German trade leaders over strict sanctions imposed on Russia by the West.
Germany's engineering sector could be derailed if the EU imposes strict sanctions according to trade body VDMA, which represents 3,000 firms including electronics manufacturer Siemens.
The EU, United States and other Western nations have already imposed sanctions in response to Russia's seizure of Crimea and have threatened broader economic penalties if it moves into southern and eastern Ukraine.
But VDMA President Reinhold Festge told a trade fair in Hanover: 'It is absolutely clear that there has been a blatant breach of international law... It is also clear that it is necessary to draw the line.
'You have to know what you are doing when you continue to escalate, yelling and screaming.'
Russia is Germany's 11th largest commercial partner, with trade reaching 76.5 billion euros last year.
Joe Kaeser, head of German conglomerate Siemens, met Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow last month to secure his firm's interests, drawing criticism from some German politicians.
 
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