Ukraine

[Irish#1]

So by an almost 96% margin Crimea votes to join Russia and the USA says they won't recognize it.......does that sound a little bit funny to anyone else?

I know there is a lot more to the story with the Ukraine and all, but there is just something odd about a news headline saying the US opposes a free election.

those damned democratic Russians!

Just a guess on my part, but are those Russians running around promising money or something else to all of the Crimeans for their vote. Chicago politics all over again?

 

[Cackalacky]

Technically, yes but is so pro-Russian that it might as well be apart of Russia. China is all about the economy but they have a military that is rapidly growing and now are 2nd in the world in defense spending. They grew 12.2% this past year but analysts believe there is more in secret. Pretty good WaPo article about it: As budgets soar, China still fears its military isn’t growing fast enough - The Washington Post

Again, when one of your staunchest allies generally sits middle of the road on an issue, its because it affects them in some way. China also doesn't want Russia to 'expand' despite this current affair occurring to the west of China.

I tried to follow your link in the other post above but it was broken.

I guess what I am getting at is there are other regions that are much more pro-Russian than Crimea (obviously Russia has military interests there and economic interests as well). If Crimea is annexed democratically, what or who would stop the other regions from doing so as well (like Donetsk's region: 90%+ pro-Russia voting)? Would China step up or would the West negate the annex referendum? I am not questioning you, just asking questions in general. Is anyone willing to stop a democratic process?

So by an almost 96% margin Crimea votes to join Russia and the USA says they won't recognize it.......does that sound a little bit funny to anyone else?

I know there is a lot more to the story with the Ukraine and all, but there is just something odd about a news headline saying the US opposes a free election.

those damned democratic Russians!

I asked this same question last week. If this goes through, I believe there will be more regions from other former USSR countries that do the same thing.

 

[BGIF]

I asked this same question last week. If this goes through, I believe there will be more regions from other former USSR countries that do the same thing.

"Those damned democratic Russians" have the band playing "Happy days are here again!"

 

[Fbolt]

You have to believe Crimean Pols are laughing all the way to the bank. I do.

 

[Cackalacky]

Russia Vetoes Crimea Resolution, China Abstains

So in the UN Security council....China abstained and Russia vetoes.

There are also reports Russian military have moved into the Ukrainian mainland from Crimea to secure a region that provides electricity to Crimea.

 

[Cackalacky]

"Those damned democratic Russians" have the band playing "Happy days are here again!"

The irony....Using the democratic method to rejoin the United Soviet Socialist Republic

 

[BobD]

The irony....Using the democratic method to rejoin the United Soviet Socialist Republic

Such bizarre irony as "the land of the free" seemingly opposes democracy. I have a headache.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Such bizarre irony as "the land of the free" seemingly opposes democracy. I have a headache.

You think that vote was actually legit? 95%? I don't buy it.

I have no doubt that the ethnic Russians would want to jump, but I thought they only made up like 60% of the population.

I posted an article about 10 days ago that called this a "vote under guns" considering the military presence as well as the fact that "change nothing" wasn't even on the ballot. According to the article, it was join Russia or move to become more autonomous.

 

[woolybug25]

You think that vote was actually legit? 95%? I don't buy it.

I have no doubt that the ethnic Russians would want to jump, but I thought they only made up like 60% of the population.

I posted an article about 10 days ago that called this a "vote under guns" considering the military presence as well as the fact that "change nothing" wasn't even on the ballot. According to the article, it was join Russia or move to become more autonomous.

It was posted earlier, that the Crimea region was the largest % voting bloc for the ousted Pro-Russia President in the last election. I don't think anyone in the international community doubts that Crimea sees themselves as Russian and want to secceed from the Ukraine. I don't think that the voting is fishy at all. They want to be Russian.

 

[BobD]

Wanting to be Russian.

Hmmmm.

Well,

I guess it's not as bad as wanting to be North Korean.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Such bizarre irony as "the land of the free" seemingly opposes democracy. I have a headache.

Would you feel the same way if Mexico decided they wanted to annex Texas? Or Arizona? Or maybe just take San Diego and LA? Or better yet...maybe the US should just grab Canada.

 

[IrishLax]

Crimea strongly identifies with Russia, even to the tune of ~90% by some polling previous to this whole debacle.

There is absolutely no way though that you'd get a 95% vote in favor without serious voter intimidation, fraud, etc.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Crimea strongly identifies with Russia, even to the tune of ~90% by some polling previous to this whole debacle.

There is absolutely no way though that you'd get a 95% vote in favor without serious voter intimidation, fraud, etc.

Last I read they were something like 60% ethnic Russian. The remaining 40% got their minds changed looking down the barrel of a gun. ( sounds like Chicago style politics )

 

[gkIrish]

Crimea strongly identifies with Russia, even to the tune of ~90% by some polling previous to this whole debacle.

There is absolutely no way though that you'd get a 95% vote in favor without serious voter intimidation, fraud, etc.

In case you haven't noticed, you are ~20 posts away from 15K. I hope you have some epic rant planned.

 

[Ndaccountant]

It was posted earlier, that the Crimea region was the largest % voting bloc for the ousted Pro-Russia President in the last election. I don't think anyone in the international community doubts that Crimea sees themselves as Russian and want to secceed from the Ukraine. I don't think that the voting is fishy at all. They want to be Russian.

I knew the Tatar's were 100% against it and made up more than 10% of the population. Apparently they boycotted the vote.

Tatar leader: referendum's results 'predetermined' | World | DW.DE | 16.03.2014

I still don't see how a 95% vote happens when roughly 60% of the population is Ethnic Russian. Assuming they voted 100% for it and assuming the Tatar's didn't vote, that means they would have needed roughly 85% of the ethnic Ukrainians to vote in favor of it. The math seems fishy to me.

I have no doubt the majority wants Russia. I just wonder what happens to the Tatar's and Ukrainians.

 

[woolybug25]

Would you feel the same way if Mexico decided they wanted to annex Texas? Or Arizona? Or maybe just take San Diego and LA? Or better yet...maybe the US should just grab Canada.

That's completely different. If Texas voted to secede to Mexico, then they could go.

Russia isn't taking over people that oppose them. As Lax mentioned, they are strong pro-russians. If they crossed the Crimean border or didn't allow citizens of Crimea to leave if they chose... that would be a different story.

 

[kmoose]

Such bizarre irony as "the land of the free" seemingly opposes democracy. I have a headache.

Bob,

The US is not opposed to ANY vote for Crimean independence, they just are opposed to one happening so quickly, without an opportunity for all of the voters to truly understand what they are voting for, and without any independent observers of the process. The speed with which this vote took place, and the overwhelming majority that voted one way, raise plenty enough questions to maybe validate the US government's stance.

 

[T Town Tommy]

That's completely different. If Texas voted to secede to Mexico, then they could go.

Russia isn't taking over people that oppose them. As Lax mentioned, they are strong pro-russians. If they crossed the Crimean border though... that would be a different story.

They are already amassing troops at the eastern border of Ukraine. That's the next step for Putin. Especially since the sanctions amount to nothing more than a slap on the wrist. What will our "Nobel Peace Prize Wanting President" going to do then?

 

[BobD]

Bob,

The US is not opposed to ANY vote for Crimean independence, they just are opposed to one happening so quickly, without an opportunity for all of the voters to truly understand what they are voting for, and without any independent observers of the process. The speed with which this vote took place, and the overwhelming majority that voted one way, raise plenty enough questions to maybe validate the US government's stance.

I thought the Russians had been preparing for this for quite some time because they were due to release control of their port in 2017 or something like that?? I think their plans just got bumped up? I could be completely wrong though.

 

[woolybug25]

They are already amassing troops at the eastern border of Ukraine. That's the next step for Putin. Especially since the sanctions amount to nothing more than a slap on the wrist. What will our "Nobel Peace Prize Wanting President" going to do then?

Of course they are on the border. Where else would they be?

I hope he keeps us out of it, that's what I hope he does. Let the international community deal with it and continue to keep ourselves untied to the situation.

 

[T Town Tommy]

Of course they are on the border. Where else would they be?

I hope he keeps us out of it, that's what I hope he does. Let the international community deal with it and continue to keep ourselves untied to the situation.

I remember reading the same thoughts from many when it came to Germany in the late 1930's. Do we wait until Putin decides he wants the annex our Nato allies in eastern Europe? It's too late then.

 

[BobD]

I remember reading the same thoughts from many when it came to Germany in the late 1930's. Do we wait until Putin decides he wants the annex our Nato allies in eastern Europe? It's too late then.

If they peacefully vote to become part of Russia, It would suck, but we need to respect their decision.

Now if they try anything militarily, we need to stick a cruise missiles up Putin's ass.

 

[GoIrish41]

If they peacefully vote to become part of Russia, It would suck, but we need to respect their decision.

Now if they try anything militarily, we need to stick a cruise missiles up Putin's ass.

Doesn't the rest of Ukraine get a say in it? It is part of their country. Letting just the portion of the country that is ethnically Russian vote seems like loading the deck.

 

[BobD]

Would you feel the same way if Mexico decided they wanted to annex Texas? Or Arizona? Or maybe just take San Diego and LA? Or better yet...maybe the US should just grab Canada.

Mexico? Really? It does make me smile to think irishpat would forcibly be a Mexican national. How do you suppose a vote on those things would go?

 

[BobD]

Doesn't the rest of Ukraine get a say in it? It is part of their country. Letting just the portion of the country that is ethnically Russian vote seems like loading the deck.

I definitely wish things were different, but I wouldn't risk one American life or consider war for a region who voted to become part of another country. I realize there have been some fishy moves by the Russians, but we can only fight politics with politics. Now if they make any moves with force, not a show of force, but actual force then that would be a whole different scary ballgame.

 

[kmoose]

Doesn't the rest of Ukraine get a say in it? It is part of their country.

Actually, no. Crimea has always been an autonomous region of Ukraine. They have always had the right to break away from the rest of the country.

 

[potownhero]

That's completely different. If Texas voted to secede to Mexico, then they could go.

Russia isn't taking over people that oppose them. As Lax mentioned, they are strong pro-russians. If they crossed the Crimean border or didn't allow citizens of Crimea to leave if they chose... that would be a different story.

I thought we fought a war over this and it was determined that you cannot secede...?

 

[GDomer09]

Excuses for Putin/Russia thus far-

-Crimea wants to be part of Russia.
-60% of them are Pro-Russian.
-They're just protecting there assets (ports/bases).

So in theory you're saying if we moved enough Americans into parts of Canada and Mexico to gain a 60%Pro-USA population we can just take them over regardless of what the other 40% and the rest of Canada/Mexico feels? You're saying if we feel like any of our ports or bases across the world "MAY" be jeopardized we can invade????

 

[GDomer09]

Better yet if 60% of a poplulation anywhere in the world wanted to be part of the USA we could just claim them as ours?

 

[Bubbles]

Better yet if 60% of a poplulation anywhere in the world wanted to be part of the USA we could just claim them as ours?

Isn't that what's happening with immigration to the US?