Trump Presidency

[Rogue219]

51 of 72 Wisconsin counties have completed their canvasses, resulting in Biden gaining 10 votes and Trump losing 271 votes.

 

[goldandblue]

The votes aren't a national thing, the citizens of a state are telling certain representatives of their state how to vote in the electoral vote. Tennessee voters aren't sending their votes to the federal government, they are sending their votes to Tennessee to tell Tennessee how to vote. Saying that the voting procedure should be taken control of by the federal government because the official being elected at the end of the line is a federal position is a complete misunderstanding of the system.

No, it's not a misunderstanding of the system. I understand the Electoral College. The ONLY use of the Electoral College is the Seat for the Presidency. The federal government already controls a portion of the voting procedure by utilizing the Electoral College. I am saying that the process for votes to be cast toward "telling" the electoral college how to vote should be Standardized across the U.S. It should be the same everywhere. One Process, one deadline, etc etc.

If you file for a passport, no matter which state, the process is the same. If you file for a Green Card, it is the same process no matter which state you are residing in at the time of application.

In my opinion, voting for the President should be as well.

I'm not arguing the specifics of what those policies/processes should or should not be for obtaining the votes. I'm just saying they should come up with a specific process that is the same nation wide.

If you feel differently, I am interested to learn your thoughts as to why. Good civil conversation.

I'll expand even further... I wish, for the love of God, people will understand that voting for President should be the LAST election they care about on the ballot. It's high time we make Congress the most powerful branch again, like the FFs intended. Of course, that would mean Congress taking back some of the powers they willfully gave to the Executive so they can dodge important issues and decisions. The President is only there to carry out the will of Congress, and should not be the one we care most about when it comes to policy, Leave the EC and the voting process alone, and start making concerted efforts to implement real change and accountability in Congress

I understand your point here and I do not disagree with anything you have said here. The only difference is that we appear to have is the bolded in regards to the Presidency.

Also, I very much appreciate the civil discourse.

 

[RDU Irish]

No, it's not a misunderstanding of the system. I understand the Electoral College. The ONLY use of the Electoral College is the Seat for the Presidency. The federal government already controls a portion of the voting procedure by utilizing the Electoral College. I am saying that the process for votes to be cast toward "telling" the electoral college how to vote should be Standardized across the U.S. It should be the same everywhere. One Process, one deadline, etc etc.

If you file for a passport, no matter which state, the process is the same. If you file for a Green Card, it is the same process no matter which state you are residing in at the time of application.

In my opinion, voting for the President should be as well.

I'm not arguing the specifics of what those policies/processes should or should not be for obtaining the votes. I'm just saying they should come up with a specific process that is the same nation wide.

If you feel differently, I am interested to learn your thoughts as to why. Good civil conversation.



I understand your point here and I do not disagree with anything you have said here. The only difference is that we appear to have is the bolded in regards to the Presidency.

Also, I very much appreciate the civil discourse.

So you are for or against Nebraska and Maine dividing their EVs differently than others? Or Colorado deciding to allocate their EVs based on the national popular vote (one of the most self defeating acts ever IMO). I interpret your take to mean you would also want the feds to draw congressional district lines rather than the states? Are you advocating for a national popular vote?

When you submit for a Passport it is done through the federal post office - not a local courthouse? It is also a representation of your national status, not your state.

My stance is pretty in line with : https://conventionofstates.com/

 

[RDU Irish]

51 of 72 Wisconsin counties have completed their canvasses, resulting in Biden gaining 10 votes and Trump losing 271 votes.

Who expected canvassing in the rest of the state to be significant? The whole game is summed up with Milwaukee - was there massive fraud there or not. The rest isn't going to amount to 20k differential.

And the voting machine issue (that I think is bogus) would be verified through hand recount, not recanvas and likely isolated. It would be the dumbest way to cheat, way to easy to prove and would force hand counts everywhere if found in a handful of spots.

If Milwaukee County amounts to an enormous fraudulent enterprise your take will be only 1 of 72 counties was a problem so nothing to see here?

 

[NorthDakota]

So you are for or against Nebraska and Maine dividing their EVs differently than others? Or Colorado deciding to allocate their EVs based on the national popular vote (one of the most self defeating acts ever IMO). I interpret your take to mean you would also want the feds to draw congressional district lines rather than the states? Are you advocating for a national popular vote?

When you submit for a Passport it is done through the federal post office - not a local courthouse? It is also a representation of your national status, not your state.

My stance is pretty in line with : https://conventionofstates.com/

The dumb thing about the Colorado thing is this stupid compact all these states have joined only "activates" when those states have a collective 270 votes.

I doubt they'll ever get it activated, but even the concept is idiotic. More power to them though.

 

[Rogue219]

Who expected canvassing in the rest of the state to be significant? The whole game is summed up with Milwaukee - was there massive fraud there or not. The rest isn't going to amount to 20k differential.

And the voting machine issue (that I think is bogus) would be verified through hand recount, not recanvas and likely isolated. It would be the dumbest way to cheat, way to easy to prove and would force hand counts everywhere if found in a handful of spots.

If Milwaukee County amounts to an enormous fraudulent enterprise your take will be only 1 of 72 counties was a problem so nothing to see here?

Is Milwaukee even in America?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Sam Kriss just published an article titled Cancion de Trump:

In October, President Donald Trump suggested he might leave the country if he lost the election. Now, he’s lost. He won’t go, but I like to imagine him in Greenland. You might remember that only last year, there was a brief scandal when Trump suggested buying the island from Denmark. The Danes stuck their chests out and refused the deal, and everyone pretended to ignore the fact that the island is functionally an American colony anyway, dotted with US military bases and only barely, vaguely, fictionally under Danish sovereignty. Maybe that was why the sale never went through: so Trump would have somewhere to flee.

Imagine Trump in Nuuk, scraggly-bearded and swaddled in a parka, trudging through the snow with his rod to fish. A quiet man, a teetotaller on an island full of broken violent drunks. He has his own way of being broken. Imagine Trump in the island’s lonely hinterlands, a hermit. Greenland is a haunted country, numinous and cold, whispering; one of the last places that’s still truly wild. Reindeer nuzzle the close dark moss, seals bask on their floes, glaciers creak and there are monsters in the deep. Imagine Trump alone, watching the northern lights spin gorgeous threads across the sky, alone. What would happen to the man if he had nobody to watch him, nobody paying attention? If he had to be a person, a living subject, rather than an image and a symbol and a name? Would he develop a conscience? Would he become wise? Or would he just dissolve into motes, and drift away in the Arctic wind?

The Greenlanders know. Their monsters are the qivittok, spirits of the strange or unworthy people exiled from the community. No human can survive alone in this cold and beautiful place, and so the qivittok become something other than human: furry or antlered, gruesome mongrel forms. Some of them can fly. They live in the mountains and attack travellers, leaving piles of gnawed red bones in the snow.

In a way, the qivittok is what Trump has always been. Trump’s rhetoric centre around the community, the flag, the symbols of belonging, because this is what he’s always lacked. He’s never had relationships, only transactions, and even those are few. In his businesses, he avoids partnerships, shareholders, or joint enterprises. He grew up lonely, the son of an indifferent father, insulated from the world by his wealth. It takes a lonely man to plaster his own name over tall buildings. It takes a lonely man to need this kind of concrete proof that he really exists.

What it comes down to is this: Donald Trump is simply not like other people. He is something different, an alien walking among us. A creature from a haunted land. In his own way, a genius. Something bright and rare and strange.

Donald Trump doesn’t hold himself like an ordinary person. He isn’t straight and he doesn’t slouch; he bends. Creasing at the waist, torso angled forward to hide his incredible fatness, which means that his big round damp coquettish arse is constantly sticking out behind him. Most people acquire their bad posture from a lifetime of bad habits, but Donald Trump’s stance is deliberate. He came up with a terrible new way of standing on his feet, all by himself.

Donald Trump doesn’t look like an ordinary person. He is orange; the man is visibly orange. White around the eyes, like a painted clown. A soft, moist, puckered mouth. Everything about him is soft; you could spread one of his teeth on a slice of toast. His hair is an elaborate combover, extremely long on one side, folded back and forth over his scalp. In the old patriarchal schema, men were seeing subjects and women were visible objects, but Donald Trump is a thoroughly feminised man. He has to appear a certain way, with a full head of hair, because he dreams of being the reservoir of someone else’s desire. Sometimes, in high winds, the whole structure of his hair opens up, and you can see his shockingly white and crusted pate. You think that’s upsetting? Just imagine how Donald Trump’s hair looks when wet.

Donald Trump doesn’t talk like an ordinary person. Usually, when someone speaks in a non-standard form, it’s because they’re part of a language community that’s developed its own grammars and vocabulary. There is nobody on earth that speaks like Donald Trump. He is a language community of one. What he speaks isn’t even a jargon, it’s just bizarre. On the one hand, his speech is utterly impoverished. It’s incapable of conveying almost any of the major human experience. Everything he says is somehow integrally inappropriate. Here is a man who once described Frederick Douglass as ‘an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognised more and more.’ Like something out of Gertrude Stein: the black sludge of words, the sticky deposits left once language and communication have gone. But at the same time, his speech is incredibly fecund. The rolling rhythmic intensifiers that turn it into something like music, the way things are always very nice, very special, very good, or very, very, very… bad. Trump’s language never exhausts itself; he can fit a potentially infinite number of words between one concept and the next. This language really is a virus; a blob from outer space, breeding. Everyone I know has tried, at some point, to imitate it, and we all think we’re very clever. (Watching the chickens peck around the garden, I sometimes imagine them in his voice. We love mealworms, folks, don’t we love mealworms? Very wonderful mealworms, very nice and very delicious to eat. We love laying an egg.) But Trump invented this virus; he cooked it up in the strange secret lab inside his head. We just copy and pass it on. Infected. Transfixed.

How did a country as conservative as the United States ever manage to elect a man as utterly weird as Donald Trump? For decades, politicians have tried to sell themselves to ordinary people by pretending to be normal. Look at me eat a hot dog at a diner, just like all of you gurning rubes! Cramming wobbly tubes of pork into their mouths: aren’t I relatable? Aren’t I your abuela? But Donald Trump eats pizza with a knife and fork. You could not get a beer with him. He would not shake your hand. You are nothing alike. And still it doesn’t matter. Who ever said that people want to be governed by someone just like them? That’s what the ruling classes think, because they’re all covetous narcissists who want political power to wear a human face: their human face. They want their little daughters to grow up believing that one day they, too, could maintain an extrajudicial kill list. But the great mass of the people know better. They know that political power is something distant and strange that comes down from the white northern wastes.

It’s the sheer strangeness of the man that made him so intolerable, far more than any of the evil things he’s actually done. Even before he was elected, a vast conceptual production system was churning, trying to produce The Meaning of Donald Trump. Reduce him down to a single concept, something we know and can understand, something assimilable. So, for instance: Trump is just a cipher for race. Reterritorialise him on the stark terrain of white and black; people voted for him because they’re racists and they wanted to do racism; white people have a congenital sickness and its name is Trump. They’re still saying this, even after he increased his vote share among every demographic group except straight white men. If Trump really is making racial dogwhistles, his actual supporters don’t seem to hear them. The only creatures pricking up their ears are the racially-fixated media classes.

Another: Trump is a fascist, and his Presidency was a fascist regime. We all have an idea of what fascism is and what it looks like, so let’s just stuff this strange new creature into an already existing box. This theory has lost some credibility since Trump failed to suspend democracy or invade Poland, but I think there’s actually something to it – so long as it’s understood that Trump is fascist in the Theodor Adorno sense; the way that, say, the Marvel cinematic universe is fascist, rather than the way in which Adolf Hitler was a fascist. He’s a fascist because we live in an age of irrationality and unfreedom, and Joe Biden and Kamala Harris are fascists too. (Especially Kamala.) In other words, it’s true, but it tells us nothing at all.

A weaker version says that Trump is simply an authoritarian. He’s like those gaudy dictators in countries with unpronounceable names, the ones who build giant gold statues of themselves and rename the months of the year after their horses. Country-scale interior decorators with the power of life and death. Which is fine, but you don’t need to go trekking out to the fringes of the Taklamakan Desert to find a model of authoritarianism. Trump was a businessman, and he promised to run the country like a business. Every beloved small mom-and-pop business is a dictatorship in miniature, helmed by some grubby little Napoleon who leches on the employees, issues memos on acceptable hairstyles, or forces them to listen to his favourite conspiracy YouTubes while they work. But while they might admire him, none of these people will ever be Donald Trump.

What all these interpretations miss is that Donald Trump is the only person to have ever become President of the United States by accident. He never really wanted power, and he didn’t know what to do with the thing once he had it. He had no programme and no politics. His whole period in office was an aimless meander: sometimes he borrowed some policies from the people closest to him, sometimes he made them up as he went along. He spent most of those four years complaining that dishwashers don’t give you the kind of shine that they used to. If he was actually a right-wing populist, he would have given out multiple $1,200 stimulus cheques during the pandemic, and then handily won re-election. But he didn’t. None of this was part of the plan. He simply wanted to win rather than lose – so people would pay attention to him, so he could continue to exist. That’s all. And around this tiny, dense, irrational core, millions of people built their own explanations, their own private reasons to love him or hate him and everything they wanted him to represent.

Trump has managed to form the passive centre for two personality cults: the one that loves him, and the one that’s no less of a cult for wanting him gone. To be honest, I prefer the first cult. They make better music. ¡Ay, ay, ay, ay, por Dios, yo voy a votar por Donald Trump! The negative cult thought they were resisting the man, but everything they did reeked of complicity. Obsessing over his every movement, freaking out under every one of his tweets. They ate up his turds one by one, greedily, smacking their lips, and then proclaimed: this shit is awful, it tastes disgusting, it’s poisoning us, and may I have some more? Rather than actually countering his worst actions, they were fixated on the idea that they could make him feel a certain way: mocking him, humiliating him. That stupid balloon of Trump as a baby that cost £16,000 – for what? To hurt his feelings? Why bother? All it did was charge him with subjectivity and substance – in other words, give him exactly what he’s always wanted. Even now, liberals aren’t satisfied with defeating Trump in the election, they want him to admit defeat. They want him duly chastened. They’re still trying to give the man a soul.

There are things that led to Trump. The millions consigned to surplus population, the hollow promise of the Obama years, the general social decay, the culture of fame and attention and narcissism in which he grew. All these conditions are necessary, but none of them are sufficient. Just like the world itself, Donald Trump has no singular meaning. He is an empty, misshapen container for others to fill with fantasy and desire.

Franz Kafka – the only man in human history to truly get it – tells a story about a crossbreed, a creature ‘half kitten, half lamb,’ inherited from his father. This thing also has no reason to exist. It should not exist. But against all reason, it does.

Sunday morning is the visiting hour. I sit with the little beast on my knees, and the children of the whole neighbourhood stand around me. Then the strangest questions are asked, which no human being could answer: Why there is only one such animal, why I rather than anybody else should own it, whether there was ever an animal like it before and what would happen if it died, whether it feels lonely, why it has no children, what it is called, etc.

They’re asking what the animal means, but Kafka doesn’t know. His creature seems to be happy. It likes to play, to dance, to purr, to run and skip around outside. In the proper order of things, something so unnatural ought to die. Watching his creature, Kafka decides that ‘the knife of the butcher would be a release for this animal,’ but that knife will never come. This monster was a legacy; a gift. So he looks at his crossbreed, and the crossbreed looks back, ‘challenging me to do the thing of which both of us are thinking.’

Today, we’ve beaten Donald Trump. We’ve banished the nightmare. We, the ungrateful of the earth, have done what Kafka couldn’t bear: we slaughtered the crossbreed. This is your victory. Enjoy it if you can.

...

PS: This really ought to be an entirely separate essay, but we’re all here now, so I might as well press ahead. About a week before the election, the New York Times published an opinion piece titled Why Leftists Should Vote for Biden in Droves. The actual argument is contained in a few sentences:

Mr Trump’s re-election would mean four more years of scrambling to shield the already insufficient Affordable Care Act, but a win by Mr Biden would allow socialists to go on the offence and push for a Medicare-for-all system. Mr Trump’s re-election would deal irreversible damage to the planet, but there are signs that Mr Biden could be pressured to adopt the ambition of the Green New Deal… These policies would not constitute the realisation of socialism, but they would help lay the foundation for liberating workers… Socialists should fight like hell to get Mr Biden into office – and then fight him like hell the day that he becomes president.

I disagree. I’m not saying there aren’t some upsides: the next regime will probably rejoin the Paris Climate Accords and ease sanctions on Iran, either of which could be worth the price of admission. But it will not create a more favourable terrain for socialism. Let me put forward another perspective: Joe Biden is going to eat you whole. Not aggressively, not deliberately, not with those white chomping teeth. He will consume you like a basking shark, trawling the seas with his mouth wide open, and you have already drifted right into his maw. His victory marks the end of the road for the American left as a significant political force. There will still be people with opinions, but they will never come close to forming policy. Joe Biden will do to the socialist left what Donald Trump did to the evangelical right.

Not so long ago, the evangelical right were genuinely terrifying. Under the George W Bush administration, they waged eight years of insane culture war, not to mention the actual war to reshape the Middle East. Abstinence and creationism in schools; the Ten Commandments outside courthouses, a curtain to cover the Spirit of Justice’s naked tits. Preachers screaming that Obama was the Antichrist. Gay marriage bans. Christofascism. And where are they now? Some of the churches those preachers screamed in are boarded up, and some have been converted into condos. Plenty are still going, but the parishioners are more likely to believe in some QAnon dribble than any imminent Rapture. Nothing collective and congregational; everything is scattered now, networked. It might come back – there are always revivals – but for now, organised Protestantism has lost its claws in American political life.

This is why. In 2016, the leadership of the religious right banded together to stop Trump winning the Republican primary. They were appalled by him, and for good reason. Donald Trump is, at heart, a New York liberal, a proud and open moral degenerate. How many abortions do you think he’s paid for? But when it came to the general, everything changed. What were they supposed to do – vote for Hillary Clinton? Don’t you know she eats fetuses? So they made their moral compromises, took whatever sops they were offered, and lined up behind Donald Trump. He’ll pander to them a little, when prodded. That’s enough.

Now, the Democrats have learned that this new revitalised socialist left can be cheated, backstabbed, connived against, offered absolutely no concessions whatsoever – and they will still vote for you. Not just that: the poor cretins will dance in the streets to celebrate your victory. So why give them anything now? The left has used up its last weapon, and they used it against Trump. Now they’re supposed to go on the offence for Medicare For All – but how? Pressure Biden for a Green New Deal – but how? Fight him like hell? But with what weapons?

One of the ugliest features of the Trump years was the way liberals suddenly found it in their hearts to forgive George W Bush. You can understand why they forgot his murder of one million Iraqis – they all voted for it, after all – but this was the president of Jesusland, the man whose mutant Christian army tried to get rid of their nice French cheeses and their nice French wine. In this context, though, it starts to make sense. Liberals could embrace the figurehead of the evangelical right because the evangelical right had become toothless; it was no longer the enemy. In the same vein, you can expect the right wing to start making similar overtures to what remains of the Bernie camp. In fact, it’s already happening. For instance, outlets like Quillette have started pointing out that class, rather than identity, is what really divides people. They’re right, of course, but why are they saying it? It’s not as if class analysis, even class analysis for babies, really gels with their ideology. Leftists can write for right-wing magazines if they want (I do), appear on their TV shows, spread the message; we all need to eat. I’m not here to pass judgement. But don’t ever imagine that some broad populist alliance is in the offing. The right will embrace you only because you are not a threat to them. You’re a legitimising trinket. They will wear you around their neck. This amulet that was your bones.

Of course, the Trump camp have been instrumentalising the left in other, subtler ways too. Over the summer, watching the political violence, the shootings, the militia on the streets, the revolutionaries seizing whole neighbourhoods, quite a few people I know decided that the United States was close to collapse or civil war. It wasn’t, of course. (One thing that never once occurred through all those months was an actual exchange of fire.) Instead, the state had strategically voided its authority over certain small areas, like the area that would become the CHAZ in Seattle. This was an obvious election ploy on Trump’s part: create pockets of instability to frighten his suburban base into voting for a stronger, more brutal, more repressive state. He was counting on the left to dramatically fuck up with whatever wisp of power he gave them, and even if it didn’t win him the election, they did exactly what he wanted.

On June 29th, self-appointed security forces in the CHAZ murdered Antonio Mays Jr, a sixteen-year-old black boy. On July 4th, armed protesters in Atlanta, occupying the Wendy’s where Rayshard Brooks was killed by police, opened fire on a passing car. They murdered Secoriea Turner, an eight-year-old black girl. Both crime scenes were heavily tampered with by protesters; the murderers of Antonio Mays and Secoriea Turner will probably never face justice. These names ought to be as famous as George Floyd or Tamir Rice. Why aren’t they? This is a genuine question: why? It’s fine for the left to turn itself into a circular firing squad over pronouns or microaggressions or awkward interactions – but not murder? After all, the scenario is very familiar: an armed authority claiming police powers indifferently destroys the lives of the same people it’s supposed to protect. But it turns out that these wonderful anti-racist abolish-the-police community defence units are actually far more sadistic and far less accountable than ordinary cops.

These killings ought to pose a major theoretical crisis for the insurrectionary left. These dead children should haunt your sleep. How is it that a movement against the police murder of black people ended up committing police murders of black people? What went wrong in your analysis of power, violence, and the state? How did this movement so quickly lose its moral right to complain? Because that right has absolutely been lost. It shouldn’t be hard to decry murder without hypocrisy, but here we are.

I don’t want to agree with him, but René Girard has an answer:

As soon as the essential quality of transcendence – religious, humanistic, or whatever – is lost, there are no longer any terms by which to define the legitimate form of violence and to recognise it among the multitude of illicit forms… The act of demystification retains a sacrificial quality and remains essentially religious in character as long as it fails to come to a conclusion – as long, that is, as the process purports to be nonviolent, or less violent than the system itself. In fact, demystification leads to constantly increasing violence, a violence perhaps less ‘hypocritical’ than the violence it seeks to oppose, but more energetic, more virulent, and the harbinger of something far worse – a violence that knows no bounds.

I would like the left to take power. But this left, the one we have, the one that systematically misuses whatever power it gains, the one that says nothing when children are gunned down in the street, does not deserve it. We blew it, and I don’t know how to fix this. But if you’re looking for a left case for Joe Biden, there it is.

 

[Old Man Mike]

This thing is a challenging read. But it is also a challenge worth taking. I can't bring myself to agree with everything here, but his insight into Trump is astoundingly on.

The writing flows upon the heights --- the macro-world of huge organizations, huge egos, huge politics and media. I believe that it is pretty good viewing that.

But there is a realm of reality that isn't those things. It is the little world that I live in, and despite your fixations (speaking to the mass readership here) so "really" should you. The scale of real life is not the scale of this article.

There are "righties" who live on my real scale, and "lefties" but they aren't really either one unless they decide to diminish themselves by labeling themselves with a word, or diminish others by "conveniently" doing the same thing. It's easier to dismiss or accept by a label; it's just not responsible.

There is hope in reality. That's because it is always possible to individually choose to do the right thing. There's an actual person over there who is not a label. What do you think? What do you do? What Trump, Biden, RNC, DNC, Evangelicals, Radical XYZs say you should do? They don't even know that person.

"You can be in my Dream, if I can be in yours."
Bob Dylan.

 

[goldandblue]

So you are for or against Nebraska and Maine dividing their EVs differently than others? Or Colorado deciding to allocate their EVs based on the national popular vote (one of the most self defeating acts ever IMO). I interpret your take to mean you would also want the feds to draw congressional district lines rather than the states? Are you advocating for a national popular vote?

When you submit for a Passport it is done through the federal post office - not a local courthouse? It is also a representation of your national status, not your state.

My stance is pretty in line with : https://conventionofstates.com/

Ok. Let's reign back the horses a bit. My argument was that if we are to elect a President of the United States, then the election process should be the same no matter which state you live in. As in for vote integrity. I do not know if there was any voter fraud in this election. However, I do know that voter fraud has been an issue that has been discussed and suspected in many elections. I expect my local state to have the same voting polices no matter which county is voting....

I am not advocating for a national popular vote especially when it seems as though the integrity of that vote is in question. I believe in the EC as I believe it was created for the right reasons.

I am aware of the convention of states. Actually a coworker of mine is a huge proponent of it. My knowledge of it is at best in its adolescence. I do believe that our Federal Government is already too big. It is likely to get much bigger and more intrusive as time moves forward. What amendments would you be looking for should a convention of states happen?

 

[arahop]

Aside from dodging altogether the fact that Dems wouldn't have accepted a Trump victory, you're too engrossed in your own worldview to accept reality. I'll try to help, but you're gonna have to help yourself here too.

You don't have to agree with me. Easy on the kool aid. Just read and then ask yourself how you'd react if Dems were in the same situation. It might add some meat to this discussion, and you also might understand others' points of view rather than bashing the 71 million people who voted for Trump the way you do.

https://www.phillymag.com/news/2020/11/05/election-watchers-philadelphia-vote-count/
Elections Watchers Within 6 Feet of Vote Counters
They were previously kept at a distance that one watcher said required him to use binoculars to see anything. The city intends to take the case to the Pennsylvania Supreme Court.

https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ssing-louisville-kentucky-ballots/3677655001/
LOUISVILLE, Ky. — The United States Postal Service employee who allegedly discarded more than 100 absentee ballots in a dumpster Thursday no longer works for the Postal Service and could face federal prosecution.

These aren't theories. They aren't crazy stories. It's not Trumpism. It's illegal activity in an election. Plenty more if you're interested, but I doubt you want to shop that aisle in the grocery store.

The thing that most people have a problem with is the fact that trump believes he lost because of "fraud". His believes and him truly feel that this election was stolen from him.

He isn't doing this to make sure future elections are fair.
He's doing this because he and ever trumpers can't face reality.

There is no substantial ground to stand on here

 

[NorthDakota]

The thing that most people have a problem with is the fact that trump believes he lost because of "fraud". His believes and him truly feel that this election was stolen from him.

He isn't doing this to make sure future elections are fair.
He's doing this because he and ever trumpers can't face reality.

There is no substantial ground to stand on here

I care little about his intent. If a by-product of him losing is that some fraudulent activity or illegal activity is uncovered in election processes or certain rules are clarified, thats probably a good thing.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The thing that most people have a problem with is the fact that trump believes he lost because of "fraud". His believes and him truly feel that this election was stolen from him.

He isn't doing this to make sure future elections are fair.
He's doing this because he and ever trumpers can't face reality.

There is no substantial ground to stand on here

Trump's motivation/ intent wasn't the center of discussion. You disregarded any and all claims on voter fraud/ illegal activity, attributed it to "Trumpism" and "conspiracy theories", and claim Trumpers can't face reality.

I don't know who will be sitting in the Oval Office in 2021, but I do know you can't face reality as it's been shown to you while you make the same claim against those with whom you disagree. Pretty sad.

You also can't acknowledge that if the shoes were flipped, Dems wouldn't have accepted the results either. Get a grip.

 

[arahop]

Trump's motivation/ intent wasn't the center of discussion. You disregarded any and all claims on voter fraud/ illegal activity, attributed it to "Trumpism" and "conspiracy theories", and claim Trumpers can't face reality.

]I don't know who will be sitting in the Oval Office in 2021, but I do know you can't face reality as it's been shown to you while you make the same claim against those with whom you disagree. Pretty sad.

You also can't acknowledge that if the shoes were flipped, Dems wouldn't have accepted the results either. Get a grip.

I need substantial claims that change the results of this election.

Refer to your bolded statement above
I do know who will be the President in 2021.
His name is Joe Biden.
Face that reality.

 

[Irish YJ]

I need substantial claims that change the results of this election.

Refer to your bolded statement above
I do know who will be the President in 2021.
His name is Joe Biden.
Face that reality.

When you make it hard to manage (lax laws, no ID, mass ballot mailers, no verification of voter rolls, mass mailers even if you haven't voted in 10 years, mailers without confirming if individuals are even alive), and hard to investigate/prove (don't confirm sigs, don't confirm post marks, discard envelopes so you can never validate or investigate post marks, not allow watchers within 25 feet).... I wonder why.

So if it's almost impossible to prove by design even if it happened, you'll dismiss what can be proven, even though it's likely a small portion of what has actually happened.

 

[NorthDakota]

Refer to your bolded statement above
I do know who will be the President in 2021.
His name is Joe Biden.
Face that reality.

To be fair, dude could die tomorrow and nobody would be shocked.

 

[Irish YJ]

To be fair, dude could die tomorrow and nobody would be shocked.

I love the melodramatic

"Face the reality"

lol

Don Lemon in training?

 

[greyhammer90]

When you make it hard to manage (lax laws, no ID, mass ballot mailers, no verification of voter rolls, mass mailers even if you haven't voted in 10 years, mailers without confirming if individuals are even alive), and hard to investigate/prove (don't confirm sigs, don't confirm post marks, discard envelopes so you can never validate or investigate post marks, not allow watchers within 25 feet).... I wonder why.

So if it's almost impossible to prove by design even if it happened, you'll dismiss what can be proven, even though it's likely a small portion of what has actually happened.

But the fact is that there is no evidence of substantial voter fraud, so your argument is basically just "it happened, ok? I know it happened even though we can't prove it and even though it was a terrible election for the dems regarding the Senate. But in my opinion there are opportunities for it to happen so it must have. But only your side did it, even though the local government is controlled by Republicans in several of the swing states. It just did ok?"

 

[Irish#1]

Biden is going to be the president. But as RDU Irish previously stated, why not let this play out? Even if it doesn't change the results (highly unlikely), going through this process to cleanup irregularities shouldn't bother you one bit if you really want fair elections. Someone please explain to me why this is a bad thing.

 

[Rocket89]

Biden is going to be the president. But as RDU Irish previously stated, why not let this play out? Even if it doesn't change the results (highly unlikely), going through this process to cleanup irregularities shouldn't bother you one bit if you really want fair elections. Someone please explain to me why this is a bad thing.

What is it exactly that you are expecting to "play out?"

Just yesterday the DHS released a statement: "The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history." Trump's lawyers are quite literally being laughed out of court with their challenges and accusations. What are these expectations that everyone has to wait on before Trump concedes?

No, Trump is doing this for 2 very simple and obvious reasons.

1) It keeps his base fired up for the GA run-offs and in general stokes the flames of distrust around American institutions for no other reason than keep his base fired up. That's obviously working on several people in this thread.

2) He's taking donations for this "legal battle" with half of that money being siphoned to pay off his campaign debt. Funny thing, that.

I won't even try to convince anyone why 'people are worried' about why Trump's refusal to concede is bad for the government or why Trump's baseless conspiracy theories and disinformation is bad for the country. An overriding theme of this thread has been:

Poster 1 : "Wow, this thing in politics is controversial and probably really bad."

Poster 2: "What, no it's not lololol."

I just hope none of you are dumb enough to donate to Trump's legal battle.

 

[greyhammer90]

Biden is going to be the president. But as RDU Irish previously stated, why not let this play out? Even if it doesn't change the results (highly unlikely), going through this process to cleanup irregularities shouldn't bother you one bit if you really want fair elections. Someone please explain to me why this is a bad thing.

I have zero issue with the procedure of what's occurring. The rules of the election allow certain types of oversight and recounts within certain margins. It seems like a big waste of money and time, because the odds are so stacked against you, but whatever it's your money and time.

The only issue I have with it, and something that further reaffirms my distance from the "Trumpist" within the conservative party, is the way the President is portraying it. He's not saying he'd like a recount, and he's not saying he wants the legal system to take a look and let the process play out. He's point-blank saying that he won the election, that the election results being reported are fraudulent, and that his voters have been disenfranchised and cheated by a system that has been hard-rigged against them. There's a lot of people on here who will hand-wave the President of the United States of America essentially declaring war on our democratic system away, but I'm not that dude. If you're an actual conservative, you shouldn't be either.

Trump had a contingent of people who (to, me bizarrely) loved him, but he created just as much scorn and distaste from the same amount of people. I'm not worried about Trump. You're right that Biden will be the next President, and I'm not worried about him either. I'm worried about the next guy.

 

[RDU Irish]

But the fact is that there is no evidence of substantial voter fraud, so your argument is basically just "it happened, ok? I know it happened even though we can't prove it and even though it was a terrible election for the dems regarding the Senate. But in my opinion there are opportunities for it to happen so it must have. But only your side did it, even though the local government is controlled by Republicans in several of the swing states. It just did ok?"

There is a signed affidavit of a Detroit election worker who witnessed thousands of ballots being counted that should have been disqualified. The fraud is highly concentrated in strongholds - Detroit, Philly, Milwaukee and Atlanta. 95,000 ballots in Georgia only voted Biden and mostly showed up at the very end of counting - versus a couple hundred that only voted Trump throughout the entire process - IN A STATE WITH TWO HIGH PROFILE SENATE RACES? Who wouldn't want that investigated? Similar stories in Milwaukee, Philly and Detroit - check it out, prove it wrong. But this attitude that we can't admit or look in to any fraud is dangerous.

Trust but verify - verification takes time. Don't y'all worry your pretty little heads, very high probability Biden will be sworn in. Enjoy your $4 gas and heating your house with a windmill.

 

[RDU Irish]

I have zero issue with the procedure of what's occurring. The rules of the election allow certain types of oversight and recounts within certain margins. It seems like a big waste of money and time, because the odds are so stacked against you, but whatever it's your money and time.

The only issue I have with it, and something that further reaffirms my distance from the "Trumpist" within the conservative party, is the way the President is portraying it. He's not saying he'd like a recount, and he's not saying he wants the legal system to take a look and let the process play out. He's point-blank saying that he won the election, that the election results being reported are fraudulent, and that his voters have been disenfranchised and cheated by a system that has been hard-rigged against them. There's a lot of people on here who will hand-wave the President of the United States of America essentially declaring war on our democratic system away, but I'm not that dude. If you're an actual conservative, you shouldn't be either.

Trump had a contingent of people who (to, me bizarrely) loved him, but he created just as much scorn and distaste from the same amount of people. I'm not worried about Trump. You're right that Biden will be the next President, and I'm not worried about him either. I'm worried about the next gal.

FIFY - and you should be worried about her, she is making lists.

 

[TorontoGold]

Why can't Kris Kobach lead Operation Voter Fraud v2, again? While letting the Biden team work on the transition. Everyone would be happy, all the staunch election security supporters would find ways to improve the security, and the Biden team work on a smooth transition.

 

[RDU Irish]

What is it exactly that you are expecting to "play out?"

Just yesterday the DHS released a statement: "The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history." Trump's lawyers are quite literally being laughed out of court with their challenges and accusations. What are these expectations that everyone has to wait on before Trump concedes?

No, Trump is doing this for 2 very simple and obvious reasons.

1) It keeps his base fired up for the GA run-offs and in general stokes the flames of distrust around American institutions for no other reason than keep his base fired up. That's obviously working on several people in this thread.

2) He's taking donations for this "legal battle" with half of that money being siphoned to pay off his campaign debt. Funny thing, that.

I won't even try to convince anyone why 'people are worried' about why Trump's refusal to concede is bad for the government or why Trump's baseless conspiracy theories and disinformation is bad for the country. An overriding theme of this thread has been:

Poster 1 : "Wow, this thing in politics is controversial and probably really bad."

Poster 2: "What, no it's not lololol."

I just hope none of you are dumb enough to donate to Trump's legal battle.

Anyone who touted Russian collusion or whatever other crazy "Trump is going to jail" conspiracies for four years have zero credibility in determining what sources are trustworthy.

GA - I don't think Trump cares about anyone but Trump. The collateral effects of his actions probably gin up support for the Rs in the GA senate race so I'm kind of OK with it but anyone who thinks he is doing that "for the cause" is a moron. This reality also supports motive for fraud on top of ticket that does not reach down ballot. Establishment (i.e. both sides) supports removal of Trump and couldn't care less about the will of the people.

Agree that any sub-multimillionaire who contributes money to anything political is a rube.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I need substantial claims that change the results of this election.

Refer to your bolded statement above
I do know who will be the President in 2021.
His name is Joe Biden.
Face that reality.

Not sure how old you are, but don't think you understand how this works. CNN and Fox don't determine who the next president is. You can get your party supplies ready, but we aren't there yet.

Maybe you can show up on Inauguration Day and operate Biden's teleprompter so he doesn't forget his oath in front of the whole country.

 

[Rogue219]

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/11/donald-trump-presidency-election-week.html

"He’s out of money. He worries about being arrested."

 

[sharksamardzija8345]

Not sure how old you are, but don't think you understand how this works. CNN and Fox don't determine who the next president is. You can get your party supplies ready, but we aren't there yet.

Maybe you can show up on Inauguration Day and operate Biden's teleprompter so he doesn't forget his oath in front of the whole country.

Ugh

 

[RDU Irish]

Not sure how old you are, but don't think you understand how this works. CNN and Fox don't determine who the next president is. You can get your party supplies ready, but we aren't there yet.

Maybe you can show up on Inauguration Day and operate Biden's teleprompter so he doesn't forget his oath in front of the whole country.

I - state your name - uhhh, you know the thing!

Maybe Dems thought by electing the oldest, whitest man who is the biggest racist in DC (non-black racist anyway) we could unite the country.

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Oops says Billionaire Political Donor Charles Koch in new book. He now regrets corrupting American democracy, along with the planet. <a href="https://t.co/CY8KHalO2B">https://t.co/CY8KHalO2B</a> via <a href="https://twitter.com/WSJ?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@WSJ</a></p>— Jane Mayer (@JaneMayerNYer) <a href="https://twitter.com/JaneMayerNYer/status/1327316255653699584?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">November 13, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[phork]

Trump's motivation/ intent wasn't the center of discussion. You disregarded any and all claims on voter fraud/ illegal activity, attributed it to "Trumpism" and "conspiracy theories", and claim Trumpers can't face reality.

I don't know who will be sitting in the Oval Office in 2021, but I do know you can't face reality as it's been shown to you while you make the same claim against those with whom you disagree. Pretty sad.

You also can't acknowledge that if the shoes were flipped, Dems wouldn't have accepted the results either. Get a grip.

Biden will be president. And the shoes were flipped, literally, in 2016. With smaller differences in vote counts and no recounts or challenges happened. I'm no fan of Hillary, but she conceded.

When you make it hard to manage (lax laws, no ID, mass ballot mailers, no verification of voter rolls, mass mailers even if you haven't voted in 10 years, mailers without confirming if individuals are even alive), and hard to investigate/prove (don't confirm sigs, don't confirm post marks, discard envelopes so you can never validate or investigate post marks, not allow watchers within 25 feet).... I wonder why.

So if it's almost impossible to prove by design even if it happened, you'll dismiss what can be proven, even though it's likely a small portion of what has actually happened.

How do you vote with no ID? The concept is foreign to me, being a Canadian. I have yet to vote by mail but I see they send you some sort of kit after verifying your name and address.

But the fact is that there is no evidence of substantial voter fraud, so your argument is basically just "it happened, ok? I know it happened even though we can't prove it and even though it was a terrible election for the dems regarding the Senate. But in my opinion there are opportunities for it to happen so it must have. But only your side did it, even though the local government is controlled by Republicans in several of the swing states. It just did ok?"

Right.. Schroedingers Cat syndrome.

Biden is going to be the president. But as RDU Irish previously stated, why not let this play out? Even if it doesn't change the results (highly unlikely), going through this process to cleanup irregularities shouldn't bother you one bit if you really want fair elections. Someone please explain to me why this is a bad thing.

Not a bad thing, a great thing. But in the mean time of recounts and laughable lawsuits Biden should be privy to all things presidential.

There is a signed affidavit of a Detroit election worker who witnessed thousands of ballots being counted that should have been disqualified. The fraud is highly concentrated in strongholds - Detroit, Philly, Milwaukee and Atlanta. 95,000 ballots in Georgia only voted Biden and mostly showed up at the very end of counting - versus a couple hundred that only voted Trump throughout the entire process - IN A STATE WITH TWO HIGH PROFILE SENATE RACES? Who wouldn't want that investigated? Similar stories in Milwaukee, Philly and Detroit - check it out, prove it wrong. But this attitude that we can't admit or look in to any fraud is dangerous.

Trust but verify - verification takes time. Don't y'all worry your pretty little heads, very high probability Biden will be sworn in. Enjoy your $4 gas and heating your house with a windmill.

By all means check everything out, but in the mean time see above re: Biden and presidential type things.

Anyone who touted Russian collusion or whatever other crazy "Trump is going to jail" conspiracies for four years have zero credibility in determining what sources are trustworthy.

GA - I don't think Trump cares about anyone but Trump. The collateral effects of his actions probably gin up support for the Rs in the GA senate race so I'm kind of OK with it but anyone who thinks he is doing that "for the cause" is a moron. This reality also supports motive for fraud on top of ticket that does not reach down ballot. Establishment (i.e. both sides) supports removal of Trump and couldn't care less about the will of the people.

Agree that any sub-multimillionaire who contributes money to anything political is a rube.

As well as anything re: Clinton emails, Obamas soon to be arrest etc etc. The misinformation is everywhere and all encompassing. The question is whos misinformation is juicier for the uneducated to digest.

I honestly believe, from an outside view, that Trump is doing a few things. #1 delaying to use his donation hotline to pay off as much of his debt as possible. #2 the GA runoff situation and #3 to avoid jail time himself.

BTW can any of you explain the Four Seasons Landscaping press conference? I am bewildered that someone at that level could make an error like that, or are they that broke? Its very confusing.