Torture Report

woolybug25

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LOL, this guy. "higher standard of human digity", "we're no different than terrorists" blah blah blah. No, let me tell you what happened... Terrorists flew two planes into the WTC, another into the Pentagon, another into a Pennsylvania field on the way to the white house. What did America want? Actions and Answers, and now you feel shame that they did that.

Give me a break with your "we did what we had to" rhetoric. First of all, we didn't get the answers and we did it by breaking international law.

Again... if you are ok with our government torturing to the level of rape against people that aren't even necessarily going to get prosecuted, then you simply have a different belief system than most people.
 

woolybug25

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Let's not be sensational. Don't imply that I accept rape by CIA interrogators.

Do aspects of the CIA's interrogation program need to be reexamined? Yes. Is it anywhere near as broken as described in that report? Almost certainly not. I'm just not as outraged as you are that Al Qaeda conspirators were given ice baths and forced to stay awake for two days.

How do you know it isn't broken as far as the report claims? It was a report that was well researched and backed up with documentation. Also, they weren't all "Al Qaeda conpirators" and many of them had treatment that exceeded what is allowable according to the Geneva Convention.

Also, many "prisoners" (ie captures) were kept up farther than two days. Many were kept up over 7 days, with ice baths/water boarding/ rectal forced feeding. Do you find that treatment to a capture appropriate?

Is it suddenly ok to break international war law?
 

tussin

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How do you know it isn't broken as far as the report claims? It was a report that was well researched and backed up with documentation. Also, they weren't all "Al Qaeda conpirators" and many of them had treatment that exceeded what is allowable according to the Geneva Convention.

Also, many "prisoners" (ie captures) were kept up farther than two days. Many were kept up over 7 days, with ice baths/water boarding/ rectal forced feeding. Do you find that treatment to a capture appropriate?

Is it suddenly ok to break international war law?

...and how do you know it is? Should you believe a bunch of left-leaning Senators or a bunch of CIA officials trying to cover their ass? I really don't have an answer to that question.

At best, this report just sheds light on the fact that CIA Interrogation tactics need to be reexamined (something you and I both agree on). However, I'm not going to accept all of the findings in any report by a Senate Committee (which undoubtedly has political bias) at face value. Why should anyone blindly accept the findings in any Senate report?

The CIA asked for and received DOJ approval before using any of the enhanced interrogation techniques. Although I will point out that this report questions the veracity of the information provided by the CIA to the DOJ.
 

T Town Tommy

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How do you know it isn't broken as far as the report claims? It was a report that was well researched and backed up with documentation. Also, they weren't all "Al Qaeda conpirators" and many of them had treatment that exceeded what is allowable according to the Geneva Convention.

Also, many "prisoners" (ie captures) were kept up farther than two days. Many were kept up over 7 days, with ice baths/water boarding/ rectal forced feeding. Do you find that treatment to a capture appropriate?

Is it suddenly ok to break international war law?

You do realize that we are one of only a hand full of countries that even tries to uphold the principles behind the Geneva Convention. I am not saying torture is right, or that it should be done moving forward. But I do know that the immediate aftereffects of 9/11 had virtually every member of Congress, both Republicans and Democrats, banding together to do whatever was necessary to prevent another terrorist attack on Americans. For people to come back now and want to complain about the tactics used is more Monday Morning QBing than anything.

As far as the CIA and if it is broken. None of us really know. But this I do know. We have not had a major terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11 so I would think that all branches of our intelligence community has gotten better at gathering intel and doing their jobs. Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. But this report being released comes down to more partisan politics than anything else. Nothing really new in it. But it does put Americans lives at home and abroad in serious jeopardy. I have just as much a problem with that as I do any torture the CIA did.
 
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Wild Bill

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As a trained interrogator that spent most of 2006 deployed, I firmly believe that torture doesn't work.

What techniques were used or taught that you consider torture? What do you mean when you say it doesn't work? It doesn't work at all, it doesn't work consistently or it doesn't work well enough to justify the tactics? I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that coerced interrogation or "torture" would get some, if not most, people singing like songbirds. Just curious if you care to elaborate.
 

woolybug25

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...and how do you know it is? Should you believe a bunch of left-leaning Senators or a bunch of CIA officials trying to cover their ass? I really don't have an answer to that question.

At best, this report just sheds light on the fact that CIA Interrogation tactics need to be reexamined (something you and I both agree on). However, I'm not going to accept all of the findings in any report by a Senate Committee (which undoubtedly has political bias) at face value. Why should anyone blindly accept the findings in any Senate report?

The CIA asked for and received DOJ approval before using any of the enhanced interrogation techniques. Although I will point out that this report questions the veracity of the information provided by the CIA to the DOJ.

Honest question... did you read the report?
 

GoIrish41

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LOL, this guy. "higher standard of human digity", "we're no different than terrorists" blah blah blah. No, let me tell you what happened... Terrorists flew two planes into the WTC, another into the Pentagon, another into a Pennsylvania field on the way to the white house. What did America want? Actions and Answers, and now you feel shame that they did that.

If those "actions" include torturing of human beings, then those actions are contrary to American ideals. I knew people who were in the World Trade Center and in the Pentagon during the attacks, so you don't really have to tell me what happened on 9/11. Our beliefs are only such if they can stand up to circumstances that test them. In this test, we failed as a nation. We do not torture people, period.
 

woolybug25

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...and how do you know it is? Should you believe a bunch of left-leaning Senators or a bunch of CIA officials trying to cover their ass? I really don't have an answer to that question.

At best, this report just sheds light on the fact that CIA Interrogation tactics need to be reexamined (something you and I both agree on). However, I'm not going to accept all of the findings in any report by a Senate Committee (which undoubtedly has political bias) at face value. Why should anyone blindly accept the findings in any Senate report?

The CIA asked for and received DOJ approval before using any of the enhanced interrogation techniques. Although I will point out that this report questions the veracity of the information provided by the CIA to the DOJ.

Given the fact that I have a job, can't say I've read all 400+ pages. I've read about 10+ articles on the findings.

But you have plenty of time to come on here and opine on the details of a report that you haven't actually looked at any part of?

Btw, it's broken up into three reports and several different sections, it's an easy read. I am gainfully employed and have read all of the major parts already. There are tons of blank pages and big type. It doesn't read like a book, it's a report.
 

ozzman

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What techniques were used or taught that you consider torture? What do you mean when you say it doesn't work? It doesn't work at all, it doesn't work consistently or it doesn't work well enough to justify the tactics? I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that coerced interrogation or "torture" would get some, if not most, people singing like songbirds. Just curious if you care to elaborate.

I haven't read the full report, but extreme use of sensory deprivation, waterboarding, and stress positions are definitely on the list of techniques that I'd put in the torture category. The reason I don't think it works is exactly based on your assumption. Most people sing like songbirds, regardless of what they know; they'll tell you whatever you want to know just to make you stop. If you can't break someone using one of the approved techniques, they most likely aren't going to break.

Here are the list of approved techniques from the field manual if anyone is interested.

The manual permits nineteen interrogation techniques, Described in Chapter 8 of the manual as "approach techniques" to help establish a rapport, these are:

Direct approach. Pertinent questions are asked directly "as long as the source is answering the questions in a truthful manner". In almost all HUMINT collection this is the first approach used, and an alternative approach is chosen once the source refuses to answer, avoids answering, or answers falsely.
Incentive approach. A real or emotional reward is given, or a real or perceived negative stimulus is removed, within the limits of what can be delivered and what is permissible by national and international law.

Emotional approaches join an emotional response with some attached incentive. These are:
Emotional love. "Sincerity and conviction are critical" for the questioner to be persuasive. "For example, if the source cooperates, he can see his family sooner, end the war, protect his comrades, help his country, help his ethnic group."
Emotional hate. The questioner persuades the source that cooperation will harm his enemies. The manual prohibits the questioner from promising that a unit will be denied a chance to surrender or that it will be mistreated.
Emotional fear-up. "The HUMINT collector must be extremely careful that he does not threaten or coerce a source", but can rely on justifiable fears such as that the prisoner may be killed for cooperating unless he receives protection, and can rely on non-specific fears, such as by asking "You know what can happen to you here?".
Emotional fear-down. A fearful subject is reassured "through verbal and physical actions" to calm him and cause him to view the interrogator as a "protector".
Emotional-pride and ego-up. The subject is "flattered into providing certain information in order to gain credit and build his ego" using a "somewhat-in-awe tone of voice". The subject might be complimented on a well-done operation or be persuaded to begin talking about an aspect of his job at which he is skilled.
Emotional-pride and ego-down. The questioner attacks the subject's "loyalty, intelligence, abilities, leadership qualities, slovenly appearance, or any other perceived weakness". If the subject tries to defend himself he may provide useful information. This must not "cross the line into humiliating and degrading treatment of the detainee", and the manual advises that the "experience level" and intended actions of subordinates be considered before an interrogation plan is approved using this method.
Emotional-futility. The questioner uses factual information to try to convince the source that resistance is futile. This approach generally must be combined with another, such as the emotional love approach, to be effective.

Several other approaches are classed as requiring considerable time and resources, and as more suitable for detainees.
We know all. The interrogator "subtly convinces the source that his questioning of the source is perfunctory because any information that the source has is already known" by providing detailed information and answering himself when the source hesitates. The approach requires the interrogator to have a large amount of information already, and have committed much of it to memory.
File and dossier. The interrogator prepares himself with a large dossier (padded with paper if necessary) indexed with tabs for "education, employment, criminal record, military service, and others" and proceeds as in the "We know all" approach.
Establish your identity. The subject is told that he has been "identified as an infamous individual wanted by higher authorities on serious charges". In a sincere effort to correct this mistake, against the interrogator's persistent denials, he may provide leads for further development.
Repetition. The interrogator "listens carefully to a source's answer to a question, and then repeats the question and answer several times. He does this with each succeeding question until the source becomes so thoroughly bored with the procedure, he answers questions fully and candidly".
Rapid fire. One, two, or more interrogators "ask a series of questions in such a manner that the source does not have time to answer a question completely before the next one is asked. This confuses the source, and he will tend to contradict himself as he has little time to formulate his answers." The source may then be persuaded to explain the inconsistencies.
Silent. The interrogator "says nothing to the source, but looks him squarely in the eye, preferably with a slight smile on his face... [he forces the source to] break eye contact first. The source may become nervous, begin to shift in his chair, cross and re-cross his legs, and look away. He may ask questions..." After much delay, the interrogator asks questions such as "You planned this operation for a long time, didn't you?"
Change of scenery. When moved from the formal environment, "the source may experience a feeling of leaving the interrogation behind." The interrogator steers conversation toward the topic of interest, and "the source may never realize he is still being questioned."

Two additional techniques require the approval of "the first O-6 in the interrogator’s chain of command":
Mutt and Jeff. Two interrogators who are "convincing actors" are chosen. The first may "for instance, be very strict and order the source to follow all military courtesies during questioning. Although he conveys an unfeeling attitude, the HUMINT collector is careful not to threaten or coerce the source." The second scolds the first, may offer the source a beverage or a cigarette, and tries to persuade the source that they "share a high degree of intelligence and sensitivity". However, he is very busy and "cannot afford to waste time on an uncooperative source. He can broadly imply that the first HUMINT collector might return..."
False Flag. The goal is to "convince the detainee that individuals from a country other than the United States are interrogating him, and trick the detainee into cooperating with US forces." It may be "effectively orchestrated with the Fear Down approach and the Pride and Ego Up".

The final technique, Separation, is detailed at much greater length than the others in Appendix M of the manual. It "may not be employed on detainees covered by Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, primarily enemy prisoners of war." It must be approved by the COCOM Commander for use in theater, and each specific instance must be approved by "the first General Officer/Flag Officer (GO/FO) in an interrogator's chain of command" following approval of the interrogation plan by the interrogation supervisor's servicing SJA [Staff Judge Advocate]. Extensions of the initial times given require approval of the servicing SJA. "The purpose of separation is to deny the detainee the opportunity to communicate with other detainees in order to keep him from learning counter-resistance techniques" The approach can be combined with Futility, Incentive, or Fear Up approaches. The separation "must not preclude the detainee getting four hours of continuous sleep every 24 hours." The two forms of separation are:
Physical separation, which prevents the detainee from communicating. Limited to 30 days of initial duration. Requires O-6 or above Approval.
Field expedient separation. "Prolong the shock of capture" by using "goggles or blindfolds and earmuffs" to prevent the detainee from communicating for up to 12 hours, plus the time these are used "for security purposes during transit and evacuation". "Use of hoods (sacks) over the head, or of duct tape or adhesive tape over the eyes" is prohibited. The manual states that the technique shall not amount to sensory deprivation, a known harmful practice.[18] Khalid Shaikh Mohammed described disorientation through the use of goggles and earmuffs in 2007.[19]
 

tussin

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But you have plenty of time to come on here and opine on the details of a report that you haven't actually looked at any part of?

Btw, it's broken up into three reports and several different sections, it's an easy read. I am gainfully employed and have read all of the major parts already. There are tons of blank pages and big type. It doesn't read like a book, it's a report.

Dude, are you fucking serious right now? Are CNN, Al Jazzera, and the Washington Post misrepresenting the contents of the report? This is a fucking ND football forum... please spare me the lectures on how I need to read the entire document before I should post in a political thread.

What a garbage post.
 

T Town Tommy

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Here are the list of approved techniques from the field manual if anyone is interested.

The manual permits nineteen interrogation techniques,

No offense ozzman but I couldn't have gotten my then 8 year old son to admit he took the cookie from the cookie jar using most any of those techniques. Granted he was a tough little s***.
 

woolybug25

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Dude, are you fucking serious right now? Are CNN, Al Jazzera, and the Washington Post misrepresenting the contents of the report? This is a fucking ND football forum... please spare me the lectures on how I need to read the entire document before I should post in a political thread.

What a garbage post.

I am fucking serious... dude...


If you are going to address the report as bias, then maybe you should actually read the thing instead of reading opinion articles on it. Seems common sense to me. You're right about this being a Notre Dame board, but that doesn't mean that you can spew opinion as fact.

I would say that a more "garbage post" would be an uninformed one claiming bias of a report that you haven't even looked at, none the less read.
 

GoIrish41

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Let's not be sensational. Don't imply that I accept or support rape by CIA interrogators.

Do aspects of the CIA's interrogation program need to be reexamined? Yes. Is it anywhere near as broken as described in that report? Almost certainly not. I'm just not as outraged as you are that Al Qaeda conspirators were given ice baths and forced to stay awake for two days.

In one instance, it was 7 and a half days, according to the report. But, if you think the report is BS, you probably don't trust that this information is accurate.

I don't know that I've heard anyone denying ANY of the charges that have been made in this report as far as what tactics were used. Instead, there is debate about the technical, legal definition of what torture is and what it is not. There have also been several who have claimed that the information obtained was directly related the the killing or capture of several terror suspects. However, in these cases, the individuals have made some rather vague comments without ever saying which techniques led to the acquisition of which information, which led to the capture or killing of which suspect. In other words, we are expected to just take the speaker at their word, when we have a hundreds of pages executive summary of a 6000 page report based on millions of documents that completely refute that claim.
 

ozzman

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No offense ozzman but I couldn't have gotten my then 8 year old son to admit he took the cookie from the cookie jar using most any of those techniques. Granted he was a tough little s***.

sure you could. you're not exactly in a controlled captor/detainee environment, either.
 

IRISH in MT

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AAAHHHH...poor terrorists! I just about started to feel bad for them when I remembered the 3,000 innocent people who died. Many who burned to death, were crushed by the crumbling towers, or suffocated in the rubel. All 3 are horrific ways to die!

I also remember the world televised beheadings of innocent journalists and peacekeepers and think we should have let rats eat them alive!

Eye for an Eye terrorists. Glad a Montana native took out the world's most dangerous person. Go USA!
 

tussin

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I am fucking serious... dude...


If you are going to address the report as bias, then maybe you should actually read the thing instead of reading opinion articles on it. Seems common sense to me. You're right about this being a Notre Dame board, but that doesn't mean that you can spew opinion as fact.

I would say that a more "garbage post" would be an uninformed one claiming bias of a report that you haven't even looked at, none the less read.

I'm not reading "opinion" articles on the report and I haven't spewed any opinion as fact in any of my posts. Stop trying to discredit what I have to say just because I haven't gotten around to reading a 528 page document.

You clearly couldn't address the content of my last substantive post, so you resorted to attacking me personally.
 

GoIrish41

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AAAHHHH...poor terrorists! I just about started to feel bad for them when I remembered the 3,000 innocent people who died. Many who burned to death, were crushed by the crumbling towers, or suffocated in the rubel. All 3 are horrific ways to die!

I also remember the world televised beheadings of innocent journalists and peacekeepers and think we should have let rats eat them alive!

Eye for an Eye terrorists. Glad a Montana native took out the world's most dangerous person. Go USA!

Well, some of them were detained and tortured for years at GTMO, only to be released when it was determined they were not terrorists at all. So, there is that! We tortured innocent people who kinda looked like terrorists. Go USA!, I guess.
 

tussin

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In one instance, it was 7 and a half days, according to the report. But, if you think the report is BS, you probably don't trust that this information is accurate.

I don't know that I've heard anyone denying ANY of the charges that have been made in this report as far as what tactics were used. Instead, there is debate about the technical, legal definition of what torture is and what it is not. There have also been several who have claimed that the information obtained was directly related the the killing or capture of several terror suspects. However, in these cases, the individuals have made some rather vague comments without ever saying which techniques led to the acquisition of which information, which led to the capture or killing of which suspect. In other words, we are expected to just take the speaker at their word, when we have a hundreds of pages executive summary of a 6000 page report based on millions of documents that completely refute that claim.

Perhaps I should rephrase my earlier post from I won't accept all the "findings" at face value to I don't agree with all of the "conclusions" from the report.
 

IRISH in MT

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Well, some of them were detained and tortured for years at GTMO, only to be released when it was determined they were not terrorists at all. So, there is that! We tortured innocent people who kinda looked like terrorists. Go USA!, I guess.


I have been in enough trouble and done enough stupid small crimes that IF they were 100% innocent and good abiding citizens, they never would have been at Gitmo. They were there for a reason...where there is smoke, there is fire. They knew or were connected to someone who was doing bad things. Guilty by association sometimes.

Like I said, innocent journalists and peacekeepers are being beheaded on world TV...at least these "poor abused victims" are still alive and get to see thier kids, families, etc.

I stand by my pride GO USA!!!
 

woolybug25

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AAAHHHH...poor terrorists! I just about started to feel bad for them when I remembered the 3,000 innocent people who died. Many who burned to death, were crushed by the crumbling towers, or suffocated in the rubel. All 3 are horrific ways to die!

I also remember the world televised beheadings of innocent journalists and peacekeepers and think we should have let rats eat them alive!

Eye for an Eye terrorists. Glad a Montana native took out the world's most dangerous person. Go USA!

As GOIrish said, some ended up not even being terrorist. I guess you are ok with us going to other countries and raping people in under the banner of "fighting terrorism". Where is the line for you? Is there one?

I'm not reading "opinion" articles on the report and I haven't spewed any opinion as fact in any of my posts. Stop trying to discredit what I have to say just because I haven't gotten around to reading a 528 page document.

You clearly couldn't address the content of my last substantive post, so you resorted to attacking me personally.

Give me a break, I haven't attacked you personally a single time. You are the one that started with the cussing and calling my post "garbage". Making the comment about not reading it because "you have a job" (inferring that I do not?). All I did was point out that if you are going to make such a definitive claim of bias, then maybe you should actually look at it. Hell, you don't even have to read it in it's entirety, it's broken up into different sections and the CIA response is about a 15-20 minute read. All of the articles you have read are in fact, "opinion" pieces, as they are written by people that have read the report and giving their brief explanation of it. A clear opinion piece.

Don't start putting words in my mouth and accusing me of attacking you, simply because you got called out for not having any actual first hand knowledge of the report.
 
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tussin

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Give me a break, I haven't attacked you personally a single time. You are the one that started with the cussing and calling my post "garbage". All I did was point out that if you are going to make such a definitive claim of bias, then maybe you should actually look at it. Hell, you don't even have to read it in it's entirety, it's broken up into different sections and the CIA response is about a 15-20 minute read. All of the articles you have read are in fact, "opinion" pieces, as they are written by people that have read the report and giving their brief explanation of it. A clear opinion piece.

Don't start putting words in my mouth and accusing me of attacking you, simply because you got called out for not having any actual first hand knowledge of the report.

Yeah man... this one is a total opinion piece.

20 key findings about CIA interrogations - Washington Post
 

IRISH in MT

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As GOIrish said, some ended up not even being terrorist. I guess you are ok with us going to other countries and raping people in under the banner of "fighting terrorism". Where is the line for you? Is there one?


Dude, talk about putting words in people's mouths...I never once said ANY of this. I said I didn't feel sorry for the alleged terrorists. I seriously doubt anyone at GITMO was 100% innocent. If there is smoke, there is fire. You are dilusional!!!

Besides, these radical Muslim nations treat their women and children as bad or worse than we treated these GITMO detainees...they don't have any consideration for humanity but we are supposed to treat alleged terrorsts nicely? Get real!

Besides, the torture wasn't completely useless. I bet they will go home and tell their family and friends "Don't fck with USA, they are crazier than we are." Message will spread.
 
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tussin

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Do actually know what an "opinion piece" is?

Not "attacking" you, just pointing out the fact that i'm not sure you are understanding me.

Did you bother to click on the link? It is essentially author-less and entire thing consists of only quotes from the Executive Summary.
 

IrishJayhawk

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As GOIrish said, some ended up not even being terrorist. I guess you are ok with us going to other countries and raping people in under the banner of "fighting terrorism". Where is the line for you? Is there one?


Dude, talk about putting words in people's mouths...I never once said ANY of this. I said I didn't feel sorry for the alleged terrorists. I seriously doubt anyone at GITMO was 100% innocent. If there is smoke, there is fire. You are dilusional!!!

Besides, these radical Muslim nations treat their women and children as bad or worse than we treated these GITMO detainees...they don't have any consideration for humanity but we are supposed to treat alleged terrorsts nicely? PLEASE!

IMO, "they do it to our prisoners" or "they do things that are worse" are very bad justifications for us to do something. We can't be outraged and claim moral outrage at what they do unless we hold ourselves to a higher standard.

And...it doesn't work anyway.
 

woolybug25

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As GOIrish said, some ended up not even being terrorist. I guess you are ok with us going to other countries and raping people in under the banner of "fighting terrorism". Where is the line for you? Is there one?


Dude, talk about putting words in people's mouths...I never once said ANY of this. I said I didn't feel sorry for the alleged terrorists. I seriously doubt anyone at GITMO was 100% innocent. If there is smoke, there is fire. You are dilusional!!!

Besides, these radical Muslim nations treat their women and children as bad or worse than we treated these GITMO detainees...they don't have any consideration for humanity but we are supposed to treat alleged terrorsts nicely? PLEASE!

You do realize that this didn't just happen in Gitmo, and some of those in Gitmo, have been released because of "mistaken identity" and because they were associated with terrorists, but didn't actually commit any crimes. These are people that could have been subjected to things like waterboarding, severe beatings, etc and they didn't even commit a crime.

Outside of that, my argument isn't even about guilt. We have values particular to the United States that make us moral authority in the world. Clear torture is not how we do things and against the American ideal.

Also, read what I wrote. I didn't say that we should "treat them nicely", but I also don't think forced anal probing is okay. But i'm sure that every person we interrogated was a radical muslim that raped their family or worse. Just like you said...
 

GoIrish41

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I have been in enough trouble and done enough stupid small crimes that IF they were 100% innocent and good abiding citizens, they never would have been at Gitmo. They were there for a reason...where there is smoke, there is fire. They knew or were connected to someone who was doing bad things. Guilty by association sometimes.

Like I said, innocent journalists and peacekeepers are being beheaded on world TV...at least these "poor abused victims" are still alive and get to see thier kids, families, etc.

I stand by my pride GO USA!!!

So, when they decide to commit an act of terrorism in your home town to retaliate for the shit that we've done to them in the name of gaining access to information, I'll be sure to remember that you deserved it because, you know, you are guilty of inflicting torture on innocent people ... by association, of course. I am more than likely the only persone on IE who has actually been to GTMO and Camp XRay (I was there to cover the building of the prison and the detainees were still living in dog kennels). Their daily living conditions were absolutely appauling. The prison was, by design, a instrument of psychological torture. It was made of of shipping containers -- metal boxes sitting in the oppressive heat of Cuba. I spoke with several of the Army Corps of Engineers officers who were overseeing the construction (by Pakistani workers hired by Halliburton.) They had industrial fans that came on at the specifiic temperature that was the temperature at which people would go crazy with prolongued exposure. The fans were calibrated to run at the decible level that would drive a person crazy. But, at least they got breaks to be waterboarded and sodomized. Go USA!!!

What happened to those journalists and peacekeepers is a travesty, but it had nothing to do with the treatment of these detainees. That is, of course, unless you want to consider that our actions may have CAUSED them to seek revenge by beheading people on television.
 
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bkess8

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I am more than likely the only persone on IE who has actually been to GTMO and Camp XRay (I was there to cover the building of the prison and the detainees were still living in dog kennels).

You are not alone, I have also been to the facility.
 
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