To all who want to dump Kelly for a coach like Tom Herman or Phillip John Fleck, etc

[IrishBroker]

Do you think Houston could beat Alabama? Because that Tebow team that crushed Cincinnati in the Orange Bowl was a lot more like Alabama then Oklahoma.

Maybe. I wouldn't doubt it. Herman has those boys playing.

Nobody thought Utah would beat Bama....And Ward is much more dynamic than Alex Smith was.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Do you think Houston could beat Alabama? Because that Tebow team that crushed Cincinnati in the Orange Bowl was a lot more like Alabama then Oklahoma.

If we're being honest, OSU was pretty fortunate to beat Bama in 2015. Bama's QB had to throw like 3 picks. But we all think Meyer is an elite coach. It's about necessary rather than sufficient conditions here.

 

[NDohio]

Beat two elite teams?

I think it's a lot more than just who wins what games.

Where were the two programs when each coach took over?

What kind of history of success did the two programs have?

What were the team's talent levels when each coach came in?

What is the recruiting area like for each school?

How committed is the school to having the football program become successful?

IMO Tom Herman is the current version of BK while he was at UC...

 

[Circa]

Ohio State lost to Virginia Tech in the first game of 2013-14 season.. a few games later they were the best and It wasn't that close. Oklahoma lost to Texas last year, a few games later they were in the final 4 <iframe src="//giphy.com/embed/l46CvF8gKeelQ8BTW" width="480" height="270" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://giphy.com/gifs/hillaryclinton-obama-hillary-clinton-dnc-l46CvF8gKeelQ8BTW">via GIPHY</a></p>"]http://<iframe src="//giphy.com/embed/l46CvF8gKeelQ8BTW" width="480" height="270" frameBorder="0" class="giphy-embed" allowFullScreen></iframe><p><a href="http://giphy.com/gifs/hillaryclinton-obama-hillary-clinton-dnc-l46CvF8gKeelQ8BTW">via GIPHY</a></p>[/URL]

 

[TomHaverford]

If we're being honest, OSU was pretty fortunate to beat Bama in 2015. Bama's QB had to throw like 3 picks. But we all think Meyer is an elite coach. It's about necessary rather than sufficient conditions here.

what?

Can't agree with that at all.

Ohio State was the best team that year. They were the best team last year too. The NFL draft showed that. And they would've had even more 1st round picks if Elflein and McMillan came out. They had an NFL record 5 players taken in the first 20 picks. 12 guys drafted in the first 90 or 100 picks I think it was.

OSU was not fortunate to beat Alabama. They earned it. Zeke Elliot ran for like 5000000 yards on that vaunted Nick Saban Alabama defense. The Ohio State OL controlled the point of attack and Zeke Elliot ran all over their asses. That's why they won the game.

 

[BobbyMac]

I think it's a lot more than just who wins what games.

Where were the two programs when each coach took over?

What kind of history of success did the two programs have?

What were the team's talent levels when each coach came in?

What is the recruiting area like for each school?

How committed is the school to having the football program become successful?

IMO Tom Herman is the current version of BK while he was at UC...

The difference is CBK was recruiting NO/2/3 stars from the upper midwest for CMU before his UC days while Herman was recruiting 3/4/5 stars in Texas for guys like Urban Meyer and even a couple of years recruiting smarty pants for Rice. His resume in that regard is far superior to CBK's.

Look at the resumes of the top college coaches they all spent time out on the road recruiting big time talent for a big time programs. The only one I can think of that didn't have a lot of asst coach experience was Art Briles but he at least was with Leach at TTU for 3-4 years.

 

[nsideirish]

what?

Can't agree with that at all.

Ohio State was the best team that year. They were the best team last year too. The NFL draft showed that. And they would've had even more 1st round picks if Elflein and McMillan came out. They had an NFL record 5 players taken in the first 20 picks. 12 guys drafted in the first 90 or 100 picks I think it was.

OSU was not fortunate to beat Alabama. They earned it. Zeke Elliot ran for like 5000000 yards on that vaunted Nick Saban Alabama defense. The Ohio State OL controlled the point of attack and Zeke Elliot ran all over their asses. That's why they won the game.

Most talent =/= best team

 

[philipm31]

Serious question - how does what Tom Herman is doing at Texas compare to what BK did at UC?

Um, well he is not coaching at Texas, for one thing.

 

[philipm31]

what?

Can't agree with that at all.

Ohio State was the best team that year. They were the best team last year too. The NFL draft showed that. And they would've had even more 1st round picks if Elflein and McMillan came out. They had an NFL record 5 players taken in the first 20 picks. 12 guys drafted in the first 90 or 100 picks I think it was.

OSU was not fortunate to beat Alabama. They earned it. Zeke Elliot ran for like 5000000 yards on that vaunted Nick Saban Alabama defense. The Ohio State OL controlled the point of attack and Zeke Elliot ran all over their asses. That's why they won the game.

And they won by a WIDE margin if I remember correctly. One of two teams in the last six years to beat Bama by more than 7 points.

 

[philipm31]

I 100% disagree, if he had won the Natty in 2012 when we got there. You guys would have even higher expectations and would be pissed we haven't won another one in the last 4 years. the Texas loss would be even a bigger deal in your eyes.

LOL, wrong.

If we had won that game, we would likely not even be playing Texas, for one thing. For another, we could write our ticket as a title contender every year, both on the field AND on the recruiting trail, with depth to rival the best in the nation, and we already have a ton of talent, more than we have ever had.

This has been 6 years already. No offense, but this is just not the place for him. He has done a great job rebuilding the program, but that is all he is, a rebuilder. He never takes your team to the next level.

 

[ThePiombino]

LOL, wrong.

If we had won that game, we would likely not even be playing Texas, for one thing. For another, we could write our ticket as a title contender every year, both on the field AND on the recruiting trail, with depth to rival the best in the nation, and we already have a ton of talent, more than we have ever had.

This has been 6 years already. No offense, but this is just not the place for him. He has done a great job rebuilding the program, but that is all he is, a rebuilder. He never takes your team to the next level.

Because so many other coaches do.

 

[DCirishfan]

Because so many other coaches do.

This one does not for sure.

 

[Irish#1]

The names don't matter at this point. Just saying that Kelly is the best we can do is a defeatist attitude and one that permeates this fanbase. I get it, we haven't won a major bowl since 1994. Doesn't mean that someone better can't be had with the resources ND has.

ND is investing a half a billion in its football program with the stadium renovation and the upgrades to the Gug (which has been reported as part of Kelly's extension). Kelly has this program's future upward, no reason that another coach can't come here to get it over the hump. I am not talking about Urban or Nick Saban either.

Kelly has peaked at ND I am afraid. We need a coach that is going to win New Year's Day bowl games and playoff games.

Prior to Kelly, I think it was primarily just some bad hiring decisions. BK has proven that you can win at ND and that you can attract top talent. We've shown that we will take some kids who aren't the best academically. Salaries have been upgraded (could be a little better), facilities are getting better, etc. Can we get someone better than BK? I think so.

 

[Irish1289]

I just can't see a truly top-flight candidate like Herman (who I don't believe has any ND ties) want to take on the academic/administrative hurdles at Notre Dame that other programs don't have.

Given ND's built-in limitations on the program, I have a very hard time seeing another coach coming in and doing a better job than Kelly.

2012: National championship game
2013: Starting QB on academic suspension the entire year (along with other key players), still a couple close losses away from 10-2.
2014: One play away from knocking off FSU, injuries obviously killed the rest of the season.
2015: A few bounces away from the playoffs

Kelly has built a program that is competitive year in and year out with the ability to compete for a playoff spot every few years. Not too many programs can top that.

 

[kmoose]

LOL, wrong.

If we had won that game, we would likely not even be playing Texas, for one thing. For another, we could write our ticket as a title contender every year, both on the field AND on the recruiting trail, with depth to rival the best in the nation, and we already have a ton of talent, more than we have ever had.

This has been 6 years already. No offense, but this is just not the place for him. He has done a great job rebuilding the program, but that is all he is, a rebuilder. He never takes your team to the next level.

Since when? I realize that maybe you are a little younger and haven't been watching for this long, but in the late 80s and early 90s, ND was STACKED with talent.

The 1990 team featured names like:

Ricky Watters
Rodney Culver
Rocket Ismail
Rick Mirer
Tony Brooks
Dorsey Levens
Jerome Bettis
Derek Brown
and Irv Smith

Also:

Michael Stonebreaker
Andre Jones
Chris Zorich
Todd Lyght
Demetrius DuBose
Scott Kowalkowski
Rod Smith
Reggie Brooks
Bryant Young
Brian Ratigan
Jim Flanigan
and Junior Bryant

 

[RDU Irish]

Kelly gets a full decade before I start whining. Sure I have some gripes but that is constructive criticism - not demanding his head. Seeing Lou get run out only to be cursed with Boob, George, Ty and Charlie prior to Kelly I would like to think I learned the lesson of how to kill your program with ridiculous, unsustainable expectations.

Program is light years ahead of where it was half a dozen years ago - and we haven't even hit full stride in any given year yet. This is the first time, like half way through the Texas game, that we knew we had a top tier QB up, running and ready to lead. And he has a deep stable of QBs lined up behind him if anything goes wrong. Six years and we finally have a QB yet somehow we made a title game and have been in the playoff hunt late in the season - putting a linebacker in the #2 spot for a Heisman trophy, turn heads at the NFL combine with SPEED of all things. I mean ND was going to be slow forever, never recruit speed!

Decade and a half of ineptitude is hard to erase overnight (without bagmen). 2007 Ford Focus says we are doing this the right way and for that I cannot give BK enough praise.

He has a very long line of slack from me to keep plugging away for us - so long as he continues to address obvious problems and seek continuous improvement. Sanford is proving a wise hire. I have faith Van Gorder will be dealt with in good time and the replacement next year will be a Sanford level improvement. If not, the slack tightens. In the meantime, only so much he can do.

 

[IrishBroker]

Kelly gets a full decade before I start whining. Sure I have some gripes but that is constructive criticism - not demanding his head. Seeing Lou get run out only to be cursed with Boob, George, Ty and Charlie prior to Kelly I would like to think I learned the lesson of how to kill your program with ridiculous, unsustainable expectations.

Program is light years ahead of where it was half a dozen years ago - and we haven't even hit full stride in any given year yet. This is the first time, like half way through the Texas game, that we knew we had a top tier QB up, running and ready to lead. And he has a deep stable of QBs lined up behind him if anything goes wrong. Six years and we finally have a QB yet somehow we made a title game and have been in the playoff hunt late in the season - putting a linebacker in the #2 spot for a Heisman trophy, turn heads at the NFL combine with SPEED of all things. I mean ND was going to be slow forever, never recruit speed!

Decade and a half of ineptitude is hard to erase overnight (without bagmen). 2007 Ford Focus says we are doing this the right way and for that I cannot give BK enough praise.

He has a very long line of slack from me to keep plugging away for us - so long as he continues to address obvious problems and seek continuous improvement. Sanford is proving a wise hire. I have faith Van Gorder will be dealt with in good time and the replacement next year will be a Sanford level improvement. If not, the slack tightens. In the meantime, only so much he can do.

Great take.

My only issue is his allegiance to BVG. If he shows he's not willing to move on, then I'd look into replacements.

As drastic as that sounds, it speaks more into his unwillingness to get rid of dead weight. Which will become problematic (already has with BVG, to be honest)

 

[NDgradstudent]

2012: National championship game
2013: Starting QB on academic suspension the entire year (along with other key players), still a couple close losses away from 10-2.
2014: One play away from knocking off FSU, injuries obviously killed the rest of the season.
2015: A few bounces away from the playoffs

2012: Unprepared for NCG.
2013: A couple close wins away from 5-7.
2014: One close play away from beating an overrated FSU team. As teams started figuring out BVG's defense, things fell apart.
2015: A few bounces away from 7-5.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Kelly gets a full decade before I start whining. Sure I have some gripes but that is constructive criticism - not demanding his head. Seeing Lou get run out only to be cursed with Boob, George, Ty and Charlie prior to Kelly I would like to think I learned the lesson of how to kill your program with ridiculous, unsustainable expectations.

Program is light years ahead of where it was half a dozen years ago - and we haven't even hit full stride in any given year yet. This is the first time, like half way through the Texas game, that we knew we had a top tier QB up, running and ready to lead. And he has a deep stable of QBs lined up behind him if anything goes wrong. Six years and we finally have a QB yet somehow we made a title game and have been in the playoff hunt late in the season - putting a linebacker in the #2 spot for a Heisman trophy, turn heads at the NFL combine with SPEED of all things. I mean ND was going to be slow forever, never recruit speed!

Decade and a half of ineptitude is hard to erase overnight (without bagmen). 2007 Ford Focus says we are doing this the right way and for that I cannot give BK enough praise.

He has a very long line of slack from me to keep plugging away for us - so long as he continues to address obvious problems and seek continuous improvement. Sanford is proving a wise hire. I have faith Van Gorder will be dealt with in good time and the replacement next year will be a Sanford level improvement. If not, the slack tightens. In the meantime, only so much he can do.

Saved me the trouble of tossing in my two cents. Repped.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Yeah, I think Herman has basically proved himself to be an "alpha dog" college coach in two short seasons. I truly believe that.

I don't see how Kelly can win here either unless there are wholesale changes on defense... both scheme and recruiting. I think it's probably a two-year rebuild on that side of the ball.

I don't think Herman leaves the state of Texas. With Houston being looked at closely for big 12 membership, he's dud for a huge pay raise there if he doesn't leave. He's talked about how much he likes recruiting at Houston, doesn't have to travel more than 30 miles.

For what it's worth, I think OP's wrong and that if the time comes we can land a big time coach, but I don't think we can get Herman.

 

[IrishBroker]

I don't think Herman leaves the state of Texas. With Houston being looked at closely for big 12 membership, he's dud for a huge pay raise there if he doesn't leave. He's talked about how much he likes recruiting at Houston, doesn't have to travel more than 30 miles.

For what it's worth, I think OP's wrong and that if the time comes we can land a big time coach, but I don't think we can get Herman.

Already got a huge payday....and I don't think the Big12 takes UofH anytime soon.

The myth is that the Big12 needs Houston. It doesn't. What good does adding a team that hasn't consistently shown it can win and fill stadiums?

Besides, it's not like they are crushing it in recruiting...a couple top 40 finishes and a 5star guy....They won't touch guys that would favor UT, A&M, or even LSU down here.

And, it's in the ghetto. Horrible campus.

 

[Irish#1]

Great take.

My only issue is his allegiance to BVG. If he shows he's not willing to move on, then I'd look into replacements.

As drastic as that sounds, it speaks more into his unwillingness to get rid of dead weight. Which will become problematic (already has with BVG, to be honest)

My guess is not so much an allegiance, but when he hired him he probably gave him a deadline for putting something decent on the field. Maybe this year is the deadline. We as fans typically prefer results come much sooner. lol

 

[jerboski]

You want a coach to win New Year's Day games? That has not happened in 25 years or so.

But Notre Dame is a premier program and the next coach in that replaces Kelly, because Notre Dame can get whatever coach they want, I'm sure will be winning New Years bowls regularly and atleast one National Championship.


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'So Houston, Oregon and Boise State can land one but we can't, makes a ton of sense.....

 

[AlabamaDuck]

Tuscalosa

Tuscalosa

That is not a pleasant image


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He has never been to Tuscaloosa.

 

[ColinKSU]

Great take.

My only issue is his allegiance to BVG. If he shows he's not willing to move on, then I'd look into replacements.

As drastic as that sounds, it speaks more into his unwillingness to get rid of dead weight. Which will become problematic (already has with BVG, to be honest)

I'm indifferent regarding Kelly because all he's really done, when compared to ND's recent history, is not be one of the worst coaches in college football like Weis and Willingham. On his own merit, I don't really care if he stays or goes.

That said, if he refuses to fire BVG, then Kelly can hit the bricks. The program will never be what it could be with BVG as coordinator, and if Kelly won't let him go, then it's only going to get worse.

 

[NDgradstudent]

He has never been to Tuscaloosa.

I've been to Tuscaloosa. It isn't exactly Palo Alto. Or Austin. Etc. Alabama's location in the CFB recruiting center of the country is a benefit, but I doubt that the quality of Tuscaloosa itself is drawing kids to Alabama.

 

[arndtjc]

Kelly gets a full decade before I start whining. Sure I have some gripes but that is constructive criticism - not demanding his head. Seeing Lou get run out only to be cursed with Boob, George, Ty and Charlie prior to Kelly I would like to think I learned the lesson of how to kill your program with ridiculous, unsustainable expectations.



Program is light years ahead of where it was half a dozen years ago - and we haven't even hit full stride in any given year yet. This is the first time, like half way through the Texas game, that we knew we had a top tier QB up, running and ready to lead. And he has a deep stable of QBs lined up behind him if anything goes wrong. Six years and we finally have a QB yet somehow we made a title game and have been in the playoff hunt late in the season - putting a linebacker in the #2 spot for a Heisman trophy, turn heads at the NFL combine with SPEED of all things. I mean ND was going to be slow forever, never recruit speed!



Decade and a half of ineptitude is hard to erase overnight (without bagmen). 2007 Ford Focus says we are doing this the right way and for that I cannot give BK enough praise.



He has a very long line of slack from me to keep plugging away for us - so long as he continues to address obvious problems and seek continuous improvement. Sanford is proving a wise hire. I have faith Van Gorder will be dealt with in good time and the replacement next year will be a Sanford level improvement. If not, the slack tightens. In the meantime, only so much he can do.

This is a great post, and echoes my sentiments exactly. I've only known ND post Holtz as I was really young in the early 90s, and to burn the program to the ground after all the progress that has been made just seems to be a rash and not very well thought out plan of action. This is a young team with a lot of talent coming in the next couple classes, and will compete to the very bitter end as we have come to learn year after year.




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[ThePiombino]

This one does not for sure.

Have we already forgotten what the program looked like under Davie, Willingham, and Weis? Dear God, people - perspective.

 

[arndtjc]

Have we already forgotten what the program looked like under Davie, Willingham, and Weis? Dear God, people - perspective.

Got into an argument on twitter with what I'd assumed was a troll about this exact same thing. He kept telling me I was happy with accepting the mediocrity of BK, and all I could think about was his near 70% win percentage, and then how bad the 3-9 '08 season and previous truly mediocre seasons were.

I thought he was a troll when he named Jon Gruden as the guy he wanted to replace Kelly, but when I called him out for trolling he doubled down. I asked him why he thought Gruden was qualified for the ND job despite never being the head guy of a college football program and his response was 'He was a QB in college, won a Super Bowl, and grew up in South Bend.' I never heard back after reminding him of Charlie's Super Bowl rings, and his ND degree


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[IrishBroker]

Got into an argument on twitter with what I'd assumed was a troll about this exact same thing. He kept telling me I was happy with accepting the mediocrity of BK, and all I could think about was his near 70% win percentage, and then how bad the 3-9 '08 season and previous truly mediocre seasons were.

I thought he was a troll when he named Jon Gruden as the guy he wanted to replace Kelly, but when I called him out for trolling he doubled down. I asked him why he thought Gruden was qualified for the ND job despite never being the head guy of a college football program and his response was 'He was a QB in college, won a Super Bowl, and grew up in South Bend.' I never heard back after reminding him of Charlie's Super Bowl rings, and his ND degree


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I thought Charlie was going to win 5 championships here. Seriously. Talk about qualified.


I agree...3-9...never again.