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Domina Nostra

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Now that's what I'm talking about.

You know papal politics better than I do... what makes you think that the same College of Cardinals that elevated an Argentinian Jesuit to the papacy would turn and do the same with an orthodox African?

I don't see any reason to think the conclave that elected Pope Francis would not have elected Cardinal Sarah. I don't think they knew exactly what they were getting.

But I do think it is MUCH less likely that the current conclave would elect Sarah. Pope Francis has been very busy appointing his guys, and I think they will want someone cut from the same cloth. But who knows?
 

zelezo vlk

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Now that's what I'm talking about.

You know papal politics better than I do... what makes you think that the same College of Cardinals that elevated an Argentinian Jesuit to the papacy would turn and do the same with an orthodox African?

Nothing. It ain't happening.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Long story short, history is not an inevitable cycle. Men make decisions and they have consequences. Sometimes, those consequences carry on for centuries.

I didn't mean to make light of it. Regardless of how it compares to past crises, it's our crisis, so we can't be flippant about it. But we ought to take heart in the knowledge that the Church has been through phases like this before, and has come out stronger for it.

You know papal politics better than I do... what makes you think that the same College of Cardinals that elevated an Argentinian Jesuit to the papacy would turn and do the same with an orthodox African?

Those dedicated to a post-conciliar cultural revolution within the Church are a shrinking lobby. JPII led to a surge in vocations (which has since tapered off), and most of the priests ordained since his papacy are more interested in orthodoxy and drawing on the Tradition than their predecessors. And our generation, for those that remain in the Church, are either leaning traditionalist or at least aren't hostile to such movements.

So I think the writing's already on the wall, to a certain extent. Pope Francis has appointed a bunch of new Cardinals, and that may be enough to postpone the election of someone like Sarah. But even then, I expect our next pope would be someone more like Ratzinger--sympathetic to both the aims of VII and traditionalists, who emphasizes a "hermeneutic of continuity".
 

Domina Nostra

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I didn't mean to make light of it. Regardless of how it compares to past crises, it's our crisis, so we can't be flippant about it. But we ought to take heart in the knowledge that the Church has been through phases like this before, and has come out stronger for it.

I didn't think you were making light! I guess I am taking issue with the idea that the Church came out stronger for it. I'm more in the "long defeat" camp.

But to steal another quote from the LOTR to your point:

"Yet it is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule.”
 

zelezo vlk

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The Imaginative Conservative shared a previously published essay on Grace by Romano Guardini today.

The Mystery of Grace - The Imaginative Conservative

Through your creation, O Lord, goes a voice that reminds us of something that is above everything created. The things and their ordering, earth, sun, and stones, seem to be pure reality, but our heart knows that they proceed from your holy freedom, and are gifts that should always be accepted afresh. And so they point away from themselves to something higher than they are; but what they might be they do not say.

This indication is stronger in our own life. Plants and animals grow from their own nature and perfect themselves in it; not so men. Only in joining with this other does he come to himself; he gains his own being only when he gives himself to the other. But there is nothing mortal that could be the last fulfilling encounter for him, and so he is always wandering and searching.

But what he in fact seeks, he never gains through his own strength. Only grace can give it to him. On grace depends our salvation, but we have neither a right to grace nor the power to compel it. Grace must reveal itself to us, and only then will we recognize it. Grace must give itself to us, and only then will we possess it. And in it alone do we receive our own true self, which you, O God, assigned to us as you created us.

In the work of your redemption, O Lord, you started a fresh work. You yourself came and called to man. Your being, veiled from all creation, “shown out to him in the face of Jesus Christ.” You showed him how he was lost, and offered him forgiveness. Your love and holiness streamed out to him; now he can accept them and share them.

All that is your free gift, and yet the answer to our innermost need. We cannot conceive it with our own strength, but when you reveal it, we feel that it is the truth upon which we live. We must preserve it from the claim of the world and from the contradiction of our own inadequacy. But when our heart is open, the truth speaks within it and bears up our existence.

Awake within me a holy disquiet, O Lord, so that at all times I may search for you. Teach me to understand the mystery according to which you made my being: that I can only live from that which is above me, and that I lose myself as soon as I place myself within myself. Take my hand; help me to cross over to you, so that I may truly find myself in you.

Amen.
 

GowerND11

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As a simple lay person, does it really matter? I ask that because as long as the message is still the same, does the translation matter? I mean, sure you don't want Mass to lose meaning, so you need to make sure translations fit, but does it matter if you say one in being with the Father compared to consubstantial with the Father?

Seems like this would help the poor and less educated use words and phrases they can understand, which was the point of changing Mass to the native languages in the first place right?
 

wizards8507

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As a simple lay person, does it really matter? I ask that because as long as the message is still the same, does the translation matter? I mean, sure you don't want Mass to lose meaning, so you need to make sure translations fit, but does it matter if you say one in being with the Father compared to consubstantial with the Father?

Seems like this would help the poor and less educated use words and phrases they can understand, which was the point of changing Mass to the native languages in the first place right?
I think the "...as long as the message is still the same" is the rub. I'm neither a biblical nor Latin scholar, but "one in being" is considered less literal and/or less accurate than "consubstantial" by those who know a lot better than I do. I doubt it matters very much to American Catholics because I don't think they're going to renege on the changes they just made in 2011, but it's concerning to me that they could if they wanted to. I think it undermines the universality of the Church.

Regardless, the commentary I'm specifically after is on the papal politics of the whole thing, specifically this passage:

Cardinal Sarah has been undermined by partisans of Francis who have worked on a committee to loosen the Guinean cardinal’s cherished Latin literalism.

In 2016, Cardinal Sarah called for priests to celebrate Mass ad orientem, or with their backs to the congregation. Francis promptly issued an unusual public rebuke. And in April of this year, Cardinal Sarah sent a letter honoring Benedict’s support of the Latin Mass, asserting that “modern liturgy” had caused devastation and schism. Benedict wrote that “the liturgy is in good hands,” in an afterward to a book the cardinal wrote this year.

But the liturgy seems to have been in the hands of Francis all along.
 

GowerND11

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I think the "...as long as the message is still the same" is the rub. I'm neither a biblical nor Latin scholar, but "one in being" is considered less literal and/or less accurate than "consubstantial" by those who know a lot better than I do. I doubt it matters very much to American Catholics because I don't think they're going to renege on the changes they just made in 2011, but it's concerning to me that they could if they wanted to. I think it undermines the universality of the Church.

Regardless, the commentary I'm specifically after is on the papal politics of the whole thing, specifically this passage:

No doubt that the first thing I was told was this is a more literal translation, so I get why they went with it. However, it definitely rubbed (ha) some of my fellow parishioners the wrong way as many didn't know what these words meant. (Obviously, they could decipher that the words were a more literal translation and could look it up if needed) But the point to them was they felt that, and this was many people that had sat through Latin Masses, not knowing what much of what was being said was, the Church was reneging on what Vatican II built for them, which was a more accessible Mass.

That quote you have is certainly curious to me, but, like you, I am no scholar and could not give an opinion. Though I look forward to what some respected members that frequent this thread will say.
 

Legacy

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The Church and the Homosexual Priest: Facing the challenges and accepting the gifts offered by homosexual priests in the Catholic Church. (America: The Jesuit Review)

The recent book by the Rev. Donald B. Cozzens, The Changing Face of the Priesthood, has brought to the fore a number of important issues facing the church in the United States. Among them is a topic that has bedeviled many discussions about the state of the priesthood, that is, the high number of priests with a homosexual orientation. So far, the dialogue has been marked by strong and often uncompromising reactions. On the one hand, there are those who urge acceptance and compassion for priests who are homosexual, arguing that these priests have always had, and continue to have, much to contribute to the church. On the other hand are those who feel that since homosexuality is defined by church teaching as a strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil (The Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons, 1986) the presence of homosexual priests is at best an embarrassment, and at worst a trend that needs to be reversed.

Needed, therefore, is a clear and dispassionate review of the major issues raised by the phenomenon of homosexual priests in the Catholic Church. What follows is a summary of the major challenges faced by homosexual priests (and which the church faces as a result of their ministry) as well as the gifts that homosexual priests can offer the church. This brief overview is the product of a review of the available literature on the topic as well as interviews with heterosexual and homosexual priests (both diocesan and religious) from across the country...

The Challenges of the Homosexual Priest
There are, as Father Cozzens noted in his book, a high number of homosexual priests and seminarians in the United States. How high is difficult to say. (Estimates in his book range from 23 percent to 58 percent, with even higher percentages for younger priests.) That a high number of priests share a similar characteristic means that the church needs to consider both the challenges and the gifts offered by this group. Not to do so would be to ignore a development that could have a significant impact on the life of the Catholic Church. What then are some of the problems faced by homosexual priests? And what challenges are faced by the church as a result of their presence?
 
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Domina Nostra

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No doubt that the first thing I was told was this is a more literal translation, so I get why they went with it. However, it definitely rubbed (ha) some of my fellow parishioners the wrong way as many didn't know what these words meant. (Obviously, they could decipher that the words were a more literal translation and could look it up if needed) But the point to them was they felt that, and this was many people that had sat through Latin Masses, not knowing what much of what was being said was, the Church was reneging on what Vatican II built for them, which was a more accessible Mass.

That quote you have is certainly curious to me, but, like you, I am no scholar and could not give an opinion. Though I look forward to what some respected members that frequent this thread will say.

Honest question, did your fellow parishioners really understand what was mean by "one in being with the father"? If they did, they understand something about theology, because that isn't everyday language, and was never meant to be. It was always theological language because it is attempting to convey a precise theological point that people argued about for centuries. And if they understood something about theology, then the insertion of consubstantial shouldn't have been too big a deal for them.

I think the "...as long as the message is still the same" is the rub. I'm neither a biblical nor Latin scholar, but "one in being" is considered less literal and/or less accurate than "consubstantial" by those who know a lot better than I do. I doubt it matters very much to American Catholics because I don't think they're going to renege on the changes they just made in 2011, but it's concerning to me that they could if they wanted to. I think it undermines the universality of the Church.

Regardless, the commentary I'm specifically after is on the papal politics of the whole thing, specifically this passage:

As far as I can tell, Francis is 100% on-board with the liturgical reforms of the 20th century. There is not a smidgen of evidence that suggests that he, like BXVI, sees reform of the liturgical reform as a necessary, important, or even worthwhile project. In fact, he has dismissed BXVI's "reform of the reform" pretty directly. Like Jesuits generally--who are not particularly liturgical--Francis took full advantage of the freedom to experiment with the new rubrics throughout his career.

Francis appointed Sarah to be the head of that Office because of his prominence, as a way to appease some conservatives, and probably because one of his key supporters at the moment (Kasper) had gotten caught on tape writing off Africa as backwards. But Francis has shown zero interest in actually consulting the Office, or following Sarah's leadership, on any liturgical matters. All important decisions come out of his circle of trust. Its the same situation that occurred at the CDF.

With the translation issue, Francis is not worried about the theological ambiguity that will spring up when countries like Germany re-translate things to make it more appealing to their sensibilities. This is not to say Francis favors a de-centralized Church, he is pretty authoritarian when it comes down to it. But he is fine with the Germans translating the mass how they want it, and avoids directly implicating himself in it through this document.
 
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GowerND11

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Honest question, did your fellow parishioners really understand what was mean by "one in being with the father"? If they did, they understand something about theology, because that isn't everyday language, and was never meant to be. It was always theological language because it is attempting to convey a precise theological point that people argued about for centuries. And if they understood something about theology, then the insertion of consubstantial shouldn't have been too big a deal for them.



As far as I can tell, Francis is 100% on-board with the liturgical reforms of the 20th century. There is not a smidgen of evidence that suggests that he, like BXVI, sees reform of the liturgical reform as a necessary, important, or even worthwhile project. In fact, he has dismissed BXVI's "reform of the reform" pretty directly. Like Jesuits generally--who are not particularly liturgical--Francis took full advantage of the freedom to experiment with the new rubrics throughout his career.

Francis appointed Sarah to be the head of that Office because of his prominence, as a way to appease some conservatives, and probably because one of his key supporters at the moment (Kasper) had gotten caught on tape writing off Africa as backwards. But Francis has shown zero interest in actually consulting the Office, or following Sarah's leadership, on any liturgical matters. All important decisions come out of his circle of trust. Its the same situation that occurred at the CDF.

With the translation issue, Francis is not worried about the theological ambiguity that will spring up when countries like Germany re-translate things to make it more appealing to their sensibilities. This is not to say Francis favors a de-centralized Church, he is pretty authoritarian when it comes down to it. But he is fine with the Germans translating the mass how they want it, and avoids directly implicating himself in it through this document.

They understand the words one, in, being, by themselves much easier than consubstantial. That was the problem to them. Obviously on a theological level, I can't be sure even though we are all taught that in school or CCD in some way or another.
 

connor_in

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Are these theological questions or more philosophical...

Is the Pope Catholic? (was more fun with JP II as the variant is the Pope Polish?)
and
Does a bear shit in the woods?
 

Domina Nostra

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They understand the words one, in, being, by themselves much easier than consubstantial. That was the problem to them. Obviously on a theological level, I can't be sure even though we are all taught that in school or CCD in some way or another.

Right. But, in all honesty, what difference does it make if you understand a word the first time you hear it, if it is a word that you are going to hear every Sunday for the rest of your life? There is clearly time to learn. Google it once and the problem is solved. Is it that they don't want to have to go out and learn? Is it just a mistrust/dislike of academic term rather than plain English? (what if there is no easy way of expressing the idea clearly?) If its a matter of not liking tampering, are they aware of how much tampering there was with the translation they were using? Its not like the change was sprung on anyone.

And the term "one in being with the father" is not some simple concept that you just understand intuitively by reading it. If you haven't studied what it means, there is an excellent chance you are probably already misunderstanding it. They were trying to make sure that misunderstanding wasn't happening at the exact moment in the liturgy when you are publicly declaring what it is you are supposed to believe!
 
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wizards8507

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220px-Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.svg.png
 

zelezo vlk

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Right. But, in all honesty, what difference does it make if you understand a word the first time you hear it, if it is a word that you are going to hear every Sunday for the rest of your life? There is clearly time to learn. Google it once and the problem is solved. Is it that they don't want to have to go out and learn? Is it just a mistrust/dislike of academic term rather than plain English? (what if there is no easy way of expressing the idea clearly?) If its a matter of not liking tampering, are they aware of how much tampering there was with the translation they were using? Its not like the change was sprung on anyone.

And the term "one in being with the father" is not some simple concept that you just understand intuitively by reading it. If you haven't studied what it means, there is an excellent chance you are probably already misunderstanding it. They were trying to make sure that misunderstanding wasn't happening at the exact moment in the liturgy when you are publicly declaring what it is you are supposed to believe!

quote-if-you-understand-it-is-not-god-saint-augustine-124-94-68.jpg
 

Domina Nostra

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Not sure about this. The doctrine is that there is one God, but three distinct persons. So I'm not sure you can say "The Father is not the Son," and "the Son is not the Father." The better way to say it is that the Son is "consubstantial to the Father." :)
 

Old Man Mike

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A useful-to-some way of looking at the Trinity is that:

A). There is ONE God;
B). God created a Creation that contain three distinctly important elements of that Creation (a Spiritual element; a Physical Element; and an element dependent upon a special combinatory relationship of the Spiritual and the Physical, operating in both realms. --- "souls", "bodies", "souls capable of acting through freedom of will on the physical.")
C). God does not "abandon" nor distance Himself from any of these three elements. He "attends" to each, and each sort of attention is different in character from the others. God thereby exhibits a differing approach and care for each element.
D). Because God is so vastly beyond anything we can attempt to limit, that attention expresses itself as Personal involvement, and thereby "Personality." Therefore God's attention to Creation is expressed in three ways as Personalities. These Personalities are perfectly God, but unique in character as "felt" by the Creation.
E). God the Father is the "Personality" Who "spoke the Words of Creation" (laid down the physical laws) and Who, by power of His continuous Will maintains its existence. This is God the Law-Giver.
F). God the Holy Spirit is the "Personality" who communicates directly with the soul --- in prayers and meditations and silences. This is The Presence of God the Councillor and Encourager and Revelation Maker.
G). God the Son is the Mystery, but we are told that God, all-God, One-God decided that it was necessary to Divine Plan to make specific physical presence here on Earth as an ensouled Spirit, so as (somehow) to better interact and inspire us. This special interaction is obviously rather different than the other two Personal ways of acting.

If one accepts such a (certainly incomplete) through-a-glass-darkly model of God's actions in His Creation, the Trinity becomes almost "logical" in its nature and clearly resolves questions about whether there is ONE GOD or three gods.
 

Domina Nostra

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A useful-to-some way of looking at the Trinity is that:

A). There is ONE God;
B). God created a Creation that contain three distinctly important elements of that Creation (a Spiritual element; a Physical Element; and an element dependent upon a special combinatory relationship of the Spiritual and the Physical, operating in both realms. --- "souls", "bodies", "souls capable of acting through freedom of will on the physical.")
C). God does not "abandon" nor distance Himself from any of these three elements. He "attends" to each, and each sort of attention is different in character from the others. God thereby exhibits a differing approach and care for each element.
D). Because God is so vastly beyond anything we can attempt to limit, that attention expresses itself as Personal involvement, and thereby "Personality." Therefore God's attention to Creation is expressed in three ways as Personalities. These Personalities are perfectly God, but unique in character as "felt" by the Creation.
E). God the Father is the "Personality" Who "spoke the Words of Creation" (laid down the physical laws) and Who, by power of His continuous Will maintains its existence. This is God the Law-Giver.
F). God the Holy Spirit is the "Personality" who communicates directly with the soul --- in prayers and meditations and silences. This is The Presence of God the Councillor and Encourager and Revelation Maker.
G). God the Son is the Mystery, but we are told that God, all-God, One-God decided that it was necessary to Divine Plan to make specific physical presence here on Earth as an ensouled Spirit, so as (somehow) to better interact and inspire us. This special interaction is obviously rather different than the other two Personal ways of acting.

If one accepts such a (certainly incomplete) through-a-glass-darkly model of God's actions in His Creation, the Trinity becomes almost "logical" in its nature and clearly resolves questions about whether there is ONE GOD or three gods.

Isn't this essentially modalism or Sabellianism? I thought the Church teach that the distinction between the persons is essential, such that the personality of the Son exists eternally, and that it was the Second Person of the Trinity that became fully human (with a human will and human intellect, in addition to the dvine will and divine intellect).

I've always found the two wills, two intellects thing pretty wild, personally.

Again, I'm not saying this because I know any better, but because it seemed like the Church was willing to split itself to the core to hammer these things out over centuries. So a bunch of people who cared more and understood more than I do think this stuff is crucial.
 

Old Man Mike

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What are we going to define as "essential?" If you go strictly by most meanings of that, then "essential difference" means that the "persons" are not just different from one another in a existential (i.e. way of acting in the Creation) but an ontological way, and thereby fundamentally different (separate) Gods. If one backs off that a little and grants that Anything that God does proceeds at a level profoundly beyond our Aristotelian limitations, then God-Action of specific and orderly kinds achieves a status of Person-ness.

But all of that is almost useless human smoke-blowing anyway. Even Augustine (who I believe got a lot wrong) knew better that to count angels on pins or plumb the Nature of God. He said: "If you think that you understand, you are wrong."

That allegory/model of the Trinity works for me (i.e. if it helps me relate to the Persons of the Trinity during my prayers and doesn't interfere with my Spiritual intention of living a Love and Service-based purposeful life, then it is hard to hurl anathema at it.) But if it doesn't work for others, well just don't believe it and keep the Gospel of Love.


p.s. I hate labels. Lots on this board love them. To me it's an excuse to rapidly stop thinking and thereby stop growing. By placing one's assent to something as "good" or "bad" based on label I believe that I abrogate my greatest gift from The Creator: my free Will and Consciousness.
 
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zelezo vlk

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/HQrK7PuwU5k" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I love what Bishop Barron says at about 2:31.

"Necessary ascetical emptying out of the old self to allow the true self to emerge"
 

Whiskeyjack

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"Necessary ascetical emptying out of the old self to allow the true self to emerge"

Thanks for sharing. That brought to mind a First Things article by Eamon Duffy from 2005 titled "To Fast Again":

The abandonment of fasting and abstinence was symptomatic of a more widespread leveling down and disappearance of much that was distinctive in the symbolic lives of Catholics. That drift continues. Holy days of obligation are celebrated on the nearest Sunday so as to avoid inconvenience or the interruption of secular patterns of living. Sunday Mass can be heard on a Saturday to make way for a day’s work or cleaning the car or a morning in bed with the papers, like our pagan neighbors. From time to time there is talk of a fixed date for Easter and Pentecost Sunday—all part of the minimizing of symbolic distinctiveness, in the service of secular convenience, and a slow form of ritual suicide for any religious tradition.

There have been lots of other good First Things articles recently. Here's a snippet from a piece by Patricia Snow titled "Empathy is Not Charity":

In the swamp of modernity, these conditions no longer obtain. In Silence, Inoue calls Japan a swamp in which Christianity cannot take root, but in fact it did take root in the seventeenth century, surviving underground for generations. Modernity is the real mud in which Christianity struggles to find a footing. Christianity, after all, can only take root in individuals, and in our day, bona fide individuals are in short supply. In a world of recovering codependents, God’s word is still reverberating, but man is too timorous to repeat it. He is too fragile and insecure, too existentially touchy and emotionally raw. Suspicious of others’ influence and terrified of exercising his own, frightened of suffering himself but even more unnerved by the thought of others suffering—how can such a person receive Christ or offer him to others, when either to receive or propose Christ is always, at the same time, to receive and propose his cross? In a suffering-averse world, handing on the Gospel is almost impossible. In the culture of the modern West, it is not God’s silence that should trouble us, but our own.

Matthew Schmitz published an article titled "Christianity is for Cucks":

Like Fr. Martin’s Christ, Waugh’s hero learns from a wise woman. He sees that Christianity is not a matter of blood, or of race, or of victory in this world. It requires accepting defeat in this life before promising triumph in the next. A Catholic cannot be certain that his line will continue or his country thrive. He only knows that the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ’s Church. This is why Waugh could happily entertain the idea that black men would bear forth a faith and culture abandoned by whites. Perhaps it will not happen, but no Christian would mind if it did.

Stefan McDaniel wrote an article titled "Catholic America":

Catholics will always and everywhere be wayfarers. Nonetheless, we are wayfarers in the land of promise. Like the sons of Israel, we sojourn in a land marked out for us, that we are instructed to possess, sanctify, and fill by anticipation with the corporate, public, and triumphant life of the City of God, with its living members on earth and in heaven. As Belloc put it, “Even in these our earthly miseries we always hear the distant something of an eternal music, and smell a native air. There is a standard set for us whereto our whole selves respond, which is that of an inherited and endless life, quite full, in our own country.” The true power of Starr’s book is that it can help American Catholics build a culture that makes this quintessentially Catholic experience available to all.

And my favorite of the bunch, Edmund Waldstein published "An Integralist Manifesto":

If there is a specter haunting the imaginations of Christians in the public square today, perhaps it is the specter of the premodern integration of church and state. As the postwar liberal consensus erodes, a wider range of approaches to Christian engagement in political and social life becomes imaginable. New York Times columnist Ross Douthat has observed that some young Christians, disillusioned with liberal politics, are drawn to “a revived Catholic integralism.” For such young integralists, Before Church and State, a book by Andrew Willard Jones, has been the hot beach read of the summer, and—unusually for an academic monograph—a rich source of memes on Twitter. (Millennials will be millennials.) For those drawn toward integralism, Jones’s scholarship is positively exciting.

Jones, a historian at Franciscan University in Steubenville, never uses the word “integralism,” but the word nonetheless captures the society that he describes in thirteenth-century France. Aided by a philosophical and theological sophistication that is unusual for his profession, Jones challenges our most basic assumptions as moderns. He does, however, speak of “an integral vision which included all of social reality.” In this integral vision, “church” and “state” did not exist as separate institutions; rather, spiritual and temporal authority cooperated together within a single social whole for the establishment of an earthly peace, ordered to eternal salvation. Nor was there an “economy,” in the modern sense of a relatively autonomous system based on private property and contract. Rather, the use of material goods was thoroughly integrated into the peace. “State,” “church,” and “economy” were not merely underdeveloped, waiting to be discovered. They did not exist, and would have to be invented. The vision of social peace gave way to an idea of social life as a violent, primordial struggle for power, and of sovereignty as limiting that violence by monopolizing it.

In this Jones is following John Milbank’s account of the “construction” of the secular. But Jones’s approach adds to Milbank’s. By providing a detailed account of how a particular premodern society worked at a particular time—the Kingdom of France in the thirteenth century—Jones is able to give concrete confirmation to Milbank’s key insights into the construction of the secular, while also moderating Milbank’s exaggerated account of the integration of nature and grace. Jones provides strong evidence to show that historians have too often distorted our view of the Middle Ages by projecting modern constructions back onto them. But he is not merely making a historical claim. He is also making a normative claim: The construction of modern society with its system of separations between different social spheres was a bad development that inscribes false ideas into our very way of life. Conversely, the integration of spiritual and temporal corresponds to the truth about humanity as revealed in Christ, and is therefore demanded by Christian orthodoxy. It is this claim that is likely to be most contested in Jones’s work—even by Christians who accept his historical claims.

Jones’s normative claim can be criticized from opposite theological perspectives. On the one hand, it is contradicted by the tradition of Christian pacifism and anarchism that was strong in the Radical Reformation of the Anabaptists, and now finds adherents in all denominations. The Methodist theologian Stanley Hauerwas, for example, can be seen as belonging to this tradition. Hauerwas would likely accept both Jones’s historical claims and his critique of the modern institutions as based on a false understanding of human nature, but he would reject Jones’s claim about the necessity of integrating temporal power with spiritual authority. Instead, he would argue, worldly power should be rejected altogether. Instead of making use of the temporal sword to combat unjust violence, Christians should turn the other cheek and suffer in peace, thus constituting a nonviolent counter-society that will serve as a sign of contradiction to the world.

On the other hand, Jones’s vision can be challenged by the tradition that distinguishes between church and state, with one given the right to use violence and the other the mission of peace. The Reformed philosopher Lambert Zuidervaart recently gave a powerful and eloquent articulation of it in his book Religion, Truth, and Social Transformation. Zuidervaart too would accept that modernity constructed secular and sacred, church and state. And he too criticizes the individualistic assumptions embodied in modern institutions. Nevertheless, he argues that the modern differentiation of society into the economy, the state, and civil society (in which the churches are located) is a positive achievement that helps to limit corruption by allowing different aspects of human social life to unfold according to their own internal logic. Thus, for Zuidervaart, our goal should be the reform and development of these distinct areas of life, not the return to a violent and corrupt integralism.

Although Jones does not directly address such objections, his analysis of the integral kingdom of Louis IX, and the theological vision undergirding it, offers a strong implicit response. The integral society that Jones describes did not deny the need for differentiation. Indeed, it was a highly differentiated society. But differentiation was always for the sake of greater unity and integration. Thus, the three social orders of laity, secular clergy, and religious (monks and nuns) were seen as having a unity analogous to the unity of the Blessed Trinity. They did not form three separate societal spaces, but three orders united in a single society with a single end: the unity of peace.

Civil peace was seen as participation in the eschatological peace of the City of God, and it was ordered dynamically toward that coming peace. The unity of peace was understood as a common good—a good that could only be had together with others. And it was seen as the purpose and happiness of human life. There was no sense that the pursuit of happiness could be left to private life, with social structures serving a merely instrumental aim of allowing for that pursuit. Rather, the happiness of peace was something to which social structures had to be directly ordered.

By a detailed analysis of the acts of King Louis’s Parlement, his royal high court, Jones shows how the idea of peace functioned in integral society. In contrast to Hobbesian ideas of a violent state of nature overcome by the sovereign monopolization of power, the Parlement worked from the presumption of a natural state of peace developing in society. The intervention of royal power was for the sake of reestablishing peace when it had been disturbed by violence and sin.

The presumption of peace explains the lack of a separation between “the state” and “civil society.” Since the primordial condition was assumed to be peace, there was no assumption that coercive violence had to be monopolized by a “sovereign.” Rather, the use of coercion for the reestablishment of peace was treated like any other right in society. If a person or group had an established custom of punishing thieves, for example, such punishment was to be left in their hands. The king would only intervene if the duty of administering justice, which such a right entailed, was neglected. Again, Jones invites us to see this not as a corrupt blending of the procedural justice of the state with the structures of civil society ordered toward solidarity, but rather as the peaceful functioning of an integrated whole ordered to a peace that consisted of both justice and solidarity.

In the vision of peace that Jones describes, the clergy, who wielded the spiritual sword, and the lay authorities, who wielded the secular, had distinct roles, but they were cooperating toward a single end. They were not engaged in a struggle for “sovereignty,” a concept that had yet to be invented; instead, they actively promoted each other’s power as a means toward their common end. The relation of temporal and spiritual was understood as connected to the four senses of Scripture and the sacramental function of the material world. Just as God’s revelation in salvation history leads from the external law to the law of the heart and the peace of heaven, and the letter of Scripture leads to the spiritual meaning of the things described culminating in the eternal Word, and the sensible signs of the sacraments communicate the invisible grace of participation in the divine life, so temporal peace is ordered to leading Christians toward heavenly peace.

Thus, Jones’s implicit answer to pacifist objections to the use of temporal power for spiritual ends is that they contain an unwarranted supersessionism. As long as we are in this mortal life, there will be a place for the use of coercive measures, as pedagogical aids to fallen human beings, helping them to rectify their passions and to prepare themselves to enter into a deeper peace. Just as God himself uses such aids in salvation history, so too the Christian community continues to use them in its attempt at the realization of an ever-greater peace.

St. Benedict writes that if a brother is unable to be corrected by exclusion from the communal prayers and meals, then he should be whipped—a punishment that even carnal minds understand. The experience of many Christian communities confirms his wisdom. The Christian anarchist Dorothy Day, for example, describes how her refusal of any coercive measures in communal life allowed a Catholic Worker community to be torn apart by members who simply appropriated the community’s goods and did what they pleased.

Even a short time ago—with the ascendancy of the “religious right” in the Reagan and Bush years—it was plausible to argue that the separation of church and state was good for religion. The accelerating pace of secularization manifested, for instance, in the legalization of homosexual marriage makes that position much less plausible today. Before Church and State offers an alternative vision, a vision that could be realized only by a profound and fundamental transformation of the whole of our society. I am convinced that in working toward such a transformation, we have nothing to lose.
 

Domina Nostra

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What are we going to define as "essential?" If you go strictly by most meanings of that, then "essential difference" means that the "persons" are not just different from one another in a existential (i.e. way of acting in the Creation) but an ontological way, and thereby fundamentally different (separate) Gods. If one backs off that a little and grants that Anything that God does proceeds at a level profoundly beyond our Aristotelian limitations, then God-Action of specific and orderly kinds achieves a status of Person-ness.

But all of that is almost useless human smoke-blowing anyway. Even Augustine (who I believe got a lot wrong) knew better that to count angels on pins or plumb the Nature of God. He said: "If you think that you understand, you are wrong."

That allegory/model of the Trinity works for me (i.e. if it helps me relate to the Persons of the Trinity during my prayers and doesn't interfere with my Spiritual intention of living a Love and Service-based purposeful life, then it is hard to hurl anathema at it.) But if it doesn't work for others, well just don't believe it and keep the Gospel of Love.


p.s. I hate labels. Lots on this board love them. To me it's an excuse to rapidly stop thinking and thereby stop growing. By placing one's assent to something as "good" or "bad" based on label I believe that I abrogate my greatest gift from The Creator: my free Will and Consciousness.

When I said "essential," I meant, what the Church actually teaches as doctrine/dogma. I'm not trying to make anything up and I certainly don't have any personal preferences about this stuff.

AS far as everything being smoke, Augustine wrote like a million pages on every aspect of the faith. He certainly didn't think that rational exploration of the faith was a waste of time. He thought it was essential. I agree with you and him that there is some very and deep important where God is a mystery. But Christians also believe that there is another important level where God took time to reveal himself--reveal that mystery--to the world in a certain way. Catholicism hands that communication down and jealously protects it from distortions. The Church's teaching on the trinity is part of God's self-revelation, at least from the Church's perspective, so its essential to get it right.

I certainly didn't mean to hurl an anathema at you, and don't think I did. But if the Church tries to hand down revelation faithfully, its important that our personal interpretations aren't confused with the Church's.

You may hate labels, but Catholicism is a label. And I bet you use that label (or the Christian label) and would get mad if someone said you weren't. That implies that those words have meanings. But its pointless to insist on our own private definitions of public words. And the Church has slapped the orthodox label on certain things and the heterodox label on others. Being Catholic means, in part, assenting to those things.

It's one thing to say that the Church shouldn't care about what I think of the Trinity as long as it "doesn't interfere with my Spiritual intention of living a Love and Service-based purposeful life." In some senses, it doesn't (see the first chapter of Imitation of Christ). But its another thing to say that whatever I think about the Trinity is true because it "doesn't interfere with my Spiritual intention of living a Love and Service-based purposeful life." Those are different things.

I certainly don't have some kind of monopoly on the truth, and I'm not claiming to. Just trying to get at what the Church teaches.
 

Old Man Mike

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I'm using "essential " philosophically, like Aristotle or Aquinas might. One of the people who lives in this house is a retired priest. I showed him my post and he had no trouble with it --- said it was very Aquinas-like. He also said that no one understands the Trinity and should not think very highly of their own views of God's Trinitarian nature. He also intimated that the Church does not profess an iron-hard definition/description of the Mystery of the Trinity which Catholics must believe --- other than the revelation that God IS Trinitarian AND ONE, of course.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's a snippet from a recent retort Patrick Deneen published in The Public Discourse:

The accusation that I am singularly responsible for “corrupting the youth” is, of course, patent nonsense. If there is a growing interest in the ideas of a very few contemporary thinkers whose work seeks to explore the question of whether the basic liberal operating system of America is a root cause for its political and social calamity, it’s because many young (and not a few older) Americans no longer can credit the story that America is basically healthy except for some bad progressive eggs. It’s not because folks like me and Michael Hanby and Rod Dreher have convinced people that things are rotten; it’s because things are rotten, and the existing narrative fostered by massive investment of time, political activism, training, and money over several generations isn’t credible. The idea that we are merely one election or Supreme Court nomination away from restoring the republic rings hollow to many, and many suspect that this not because we have failed to realize the dream of American liberalism, but because we’ve realized it all too completely. It’s a sign of panic that Reilly and his allies think there’s a vast (or tiny) right-wing conspiracy corrupting the youth. We’ve heard that accusation before, and it was intended then as well as now to distract attention from and short-circuit reflection about the shortcomings of the conspiracy theorist’s own views.

Frankly, I wish our Catholic institutions were hotbeds of debate on the question of the viability of American liberalism. Catholics have a distinctive contribution to make to America, in significant part by challenging our dominant liberal philosophy both with arguments as well as a better example. But, in most cases, our Catholic institutions and its denizens merely mirror American liberalism in its main forms, “conservative” liberal and “progressive” liberal. There is no distinctive Catholic political philosophy today, and Reilly’s call merely to man the battlements by defending classical liberalism is a further effort to short-circuit what might be a moment when a real revival of Catholic political thought in America might be possible.

The question whether American liberalism is sustainable won’t go away in light of current events, even with the aid of misleading accusations and arguments. Yet we should not be afraid to test the question, as the more dangerous course is to continue on our current path while consulting the wrong map.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Fr. Edmund Waldstein just published an article in The Catholic Herald titled "How Angela Merkel and Pope Francis Are Reshaping the World":

When Germans go to the polls this Sunday, they are likely to re-elect Angela Merkel as chancellor, an office she has occupied since 2005. Merkel’s expected victory will be all the more remarkable given that the recent populist backlash against the global establishment has tended to see her as its chief enemy. Many had thought she would not survive the anger that her handling of the refugee crisis inspired.

To her enemies, Merkel is the leader of a technocratic, globalist European establishment that has lost touch with the concerns of ordinary people, an establishment that imposes austerity measures on weaker countries and is undermining the particularity of national cultures through the encouragement of mass migration.

Among Christians, attitudes towards Merkel diverge. The conservative Protestant prime minister of Hungary, Viktor Orbán, is one of her most determined opponents.

He sees his resistance to her political programme as being rooted in his Christian convictions. Orbán stands for a Europe of Christian nation states which preserve their traditional cultures and economic independence; Merkel stands for a Europe of multi-culturalism, integrated into a globalised economy with a transnational division of labour.

But there are Christians who admire Merkel as the defender of solidarity and human dignity against fear-mongering populists. By far the most important of these is Pope Francis. In photographs, the two leaders seem to have an unusually close rapport, and Merkel has spoken of their shared values. In June, for instance, she said the Pope “encouraged me to continue and fight for international agreements, including the Paris [climate] agreement”.

This bond might seem surprising, since the Holy Father is a fierce opponent of what he calls “the globalisation of the technocratic paradigm”. But he admires Merkel because he is convinced that she is not the sinister globalist that her critics claim.

He may see in her programme a commitment to a goal that the Vatican has long shared: promoting a more humanised form of globalisation, as described in Pope Paul VI’s encyclical Populorum Progressio.

Merkel’s political platform is a complex mixture of different elements. Her party, the Christian Democratic Union (CDU), was founded in West Germany after World War II. Many of the founders had been members of the Catholic Centre Party before the war. The CDU, however, was meant to unite Catholics and Protestants, in order to form a consensus between people of goodwill in the defence of human rights, ensuring that there would be no repetition of the totalitarian horrors of the Third Reich.

This was typical of Christian Democratic parties in that period. While earlier Catholic politicians had hoped that states would once again recognise the Social Kingship of Christ, post-war politicians, under the influence of thinkers such as the Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain, believed that the way forward would be pluralist democracies, based on a consensus about natural law, partly inspired by the Christian understanding of the person but not itself explicitly Christian. Peace among such democracies would be promoted by economic and social interdependence, and the breaking down of barriers.

Such ideas were an important influence on the Second Vatican Council, and they were systematically promoted by Vatican diplomacy, especially after Paul VI, an admirer of Maritain, became pope.

In an interview in 2010, Merkel explained her view of the three main roots of her party’s programme: conservatism, liberalism and the Christian social heritage. By “conservatism”, Merkel meant a willingness to defend freedom and peace by military means; by “liberalism”, a market economy; and by “the Christian social heritage”, a commitment to defending the family and treating every human being as having an inalienable dignity as a child of God.

There have long been tensions between these different elements. For instance, Merkel responded unconvincingly when the interviewer asked how the increasingly liberal attitude of the CDU towards homosexuality was compatible with the Christian commitment to the family.

The Protestant and Catholic strands of the Christian social heritage diverged in some ways. Before the reunification of Germany in 1990, the CDU was dominated by the south-western Catholic tradition, with its mistrust of centralised power and its emphasis on local traditions and intermediate institutions. Reunification meant that the CDU became more north-eastern and Protestant.

When Merkel became head of the party there were murmurs among the old guard against the “Prussian Protestant”. Prussian Protestantism valued the efficiency of centralised, technocratic bureaucracies. Prussia was the home of Immanuel Kant’s duty-based ethics. Its spirit was cool and abstract. Merkel, the daughter of a Protestant pastor who grew up in East Germany, certainly embodies something of this tradition.

The various parts of Merkel’s political make-up came together in her handling of the refugee crisis. The accusation that she planned a massive influx of migrants through the Balkan route to accelerate the multicultural transformation of Germany is unfounded. Even one of her severest critics, the journalist Robin Alexander, shows in his bestselling book on Merkel and the refugee crisis, Die Getriebenen, that Merkel was, on the one hand, driven by force of circumstances (the meaning of the title) and, on the other, by a sense of duty.

She met the great fear that the migrants aroused in Germany with an appeal to deeply held Christian moral convictions. The new arrivals were not merely “masses”, she said. They were individuals created in the likeness of God. As to fears about Islam destroying the Christian culture of Europe, Merkel said that Christian culture had already been eroding from the inside, as one could tell by asking ordinary Germans the simplest questions about Christian theology. “If you are worried about the preservation of Christian culture,” she said, “go to church more often and read the Bible.”

Excellent advice. But what Merkel overlooked is that one of the reasons why Christian practice has eroded in post-war Europe is arguably the very pluralist, religiously neutral ideal of democracy that Christian Democrats such as her have long promoted.

Maritain had thought that a pluralist democracy with a consensus on human rights would lead to a strengthening of religion. But this has not been the case.

Societies that do not recognise the Social Kingship of Christ have instead become increasingly secular. And views of morality – especially sexual morality – have diverged from the teachings of the Church. Christian political parties such as the CDU have responded by continually watering down their own commitment to Christian moral principles.

Pope Francis admires Merkel, in large part, because she seems committed to the pluralist vision of global development that the Holy See has been pursuing since the pontificate of Paul VI. The hope behind this pluralist policy has always been that it would foster peace, cooperation and prosperity. The Holy See seeks a globalised world marked by solidarity and responsibility, in which sectarian differences are no obstacle to respectful harmony.

But the risk has always been that pluralism will lead to Christianity dwindling into an ever more marginal part of society, with the Church coming under increasing pressure to play down her teachings. Unfortunately, there are signs that this is already happening, particularly where Catholic moral teaching comes into conflict with secular moral attitudes. At the recent family synod, there seemed to be a strong impulse to overcome this divergence by softening Church doctrine. But surely no gain in harmony with the current establishment can justify obscuring the Church’s witness to those truths.

Merkel has always been adept at softening her position to accommodate changing public opinion. A turning point in her current campaign came when she relaxed party discipline to enable the German parliament to legalise same-sex marriage. The rival Social Democrats had hoped to use the opposition of Merkel’s party to the law against her in the election campaign. But by allowing the law to pass (even though she herself voted against it), Merkel pulled the rug out from under them.

It would be interesting to hear Pope Francis’s thoughts on this move. Would he see it as an example of moral cowardice? Or would he see it as a secondary matter which could be set aside in their common pursuit of a pluralist future?
 

zelezo vlk

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Eifert made a Spartan teammate wear a Notre Dame shirt. After we beat Boston College, I made a Jesuit wear my cross...he burst into flame.</p>— Edward Sorin, C.S.C. (@FatherSorin) <a href="https://twitter.com/FatherSorin/status/913551790792171522?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 28, 2017</a></blockquote>
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Some good natured ribbing against the Jesuits
 
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