The running game

[North Buffalo Irish]

We can't run the ball even though we managed to run out the clock against MSU and UM. Fire Kelly!

 

[ND NYC]

question:
did we just go to zone blocking scheme under heistand...or did we do it under warrriner as well?

darren mcfadden on the raiders (a pretty damn good rb) was interviewed after one of his bad games this yr i think was his 2nd game he ladi an egg...and he said he is still "trying to figure out how to run" in this type of blocking scheme. (zone blocking)
he said the timing and the holes are completely different than what he is used to. said everything "looks different" when he gets the ball.

 

[Patulski]

question:
did we just go to zone blocking scheme under heistand...or did we do it under warrriner as well?

Yes, we changed from a man to a zone scheme. However, Cave, Golic, Watt and Martin all had a year with Latina who also ran a zone blocking scheme. Wood and Riddick were on the team as well. So, they have some experience with it.

 

[IrishLion]

1. The running game being inneffective thus far is due to the vanilla playcalling. Why is the playcalling vanilla? Because there is no need to risk anything when your defense is playing as well as the Irish D is right now.

2. The running game is effective when it needs to be. BK can call run plays straight at the heart of the D for three quarters, and there isn't much to show for it. However, against MSU and scUM, ND ran the ball well when it truly mattered. Why? Because the o-line has warn the defense out with the "ineffective" runs up the middle the first three quarters, and because ND's running back will always have fresh legs. Player development + depth = win.

3. Everett Golson will come around. It looked like BK was trying to unleash his full arsenal with the first few play calls, but Golson turned the ball over and forced BK back to the vanilla offense. At some point, it will click for Golson. He will find a rhythm, spread the ball around, and connect on his deep throws when Chris Brown is running free 10 yards past the nearest defender. However, it won't happen right away.

4. Until it all "clicks" for EG, BK will ride the running game. I made a comparison in a different thread showing similarities between BK's most effective WR group at UC and ND's current crop of freshmen WRs. The same comparison can be made of the running backs, which makes the similarities between BK's time at UC/ND almost erie. BK was breaking in a new QB in 08' (Tony Pike) who threw for 2400 yards and 19 TDs... however, Pike was most effective when things "clicked" later in the season as he had more starts under his belt. Until that time, BK relied on Jacob Ramsey (the veteran, compare to Wood), John Goebel (another veteran, compare to Riddick), and Isaiah Pead (speedy youngster, compare to Atkinson) in the running game to make things easier. It wasn't always effective, but a decent defense and servicable run game resulted in less pressure against the passing game, which in turn lead to a 10-win season... Tony Pike didn't have to win games with his arm until later in the season when he started to figure things out.

Compare this to Wood, Riddick and Atkinson getting work in the run game while a stellar D will keep every game within reach, and I feel just fine with the offense to this point. It will work eventually, BK is just easing everyone into the process. Golson, Rees, and all WRs included... and he can afford to do so considering the Irish defense and its current dominance.

 

[Black Irish]

I know we lost Jonas & Wood has suspension rust on him, but still. Between Wood, Riddick, and GA3 the Irish haven't been getting it done since Navy on the ground. 4-0 is a great start but the run game needs to crank it up a notch for the 2nd quarter of the season. We can't rely on the defense all year.

 

[ulukinatme]

Switch back to a man scheme then, cause we're not opening the holes we used to. I dunno, maybe it's not the scheme, but we're going to need a running game against USC, Oklahoma, and probably whoever we play in a bowl later in the year. USC doesn't match up well against power teams (See Stanford). It was the power game that broke the losing streak against USC in 2010 too.

 

[ulukinatme]

I know we lost Jonas & Wood has suspension rust on him, but still. Between Wood, Riddick, and GA3 the Irish haven't been getting it done since Navy on the ground. 4-0 is a great start but the run game needs to crank it up a notch for the 2nd quarter of the season. We can't rely on the defense all year.

This, it's shades of the 2002 team for sure. Stingy defense that could score points on their own, and an offense that was atrocious.

 

[Downinthebend]

Where do people get the idea that we were primarily a man blocking team in Kelly's first two years? Kelly has always been a zone (one cut and go) guy who mixes in some pulling.

 

[Irish#1]

1. The running game being inneffective thus far is due to the vanilla playcalling. Why is the playcalling vanilla? Because there is no need to risk anything when your defense is playing as well as the Irish D is right now.

2. The running game is effective when it needs to be. BK can call run plays straight at the heart of the D for three quarters, and there isn't much to show for it. However, against MSU and scUM, ND ran the ball well when it truly mattered. Why? Because the o-line has warn the defense out with the "ineffective" runs up the middle the first three quarters, and because ND's running back will always have fresh legs. Player development + depth = win.

3. Everett Golson will come around. It looked like BK was trying to unleash his full arsenal with the first few play calls, but Golson turned the ball over and forced BK back to the vanilla offense. At some point, it will click for Golson. He will find a rhythm, spread the ball around, and connect on his deep throws when Chris Brown is running free 10 yards past the nearest defender. However, it won't happen right away.

4. Until it all "clicks" for EG, BK will ride the running game. I made a comparison in a different thread showing similarities between BK's most effective WR group at UC and ND's current crop of freshmen WRs. The same comparison can be made of the running backs, which makes the similarities between BK's time at UC/ND almost erie. BK was breaking in a new QB in 08' (Tony Pike) who threw for 2400 yards and 19 TDs... however, Pike was most effective when things "clicked" later in the season as he had more starts under his belt. Until that time, BK relied on Jacob Ramsey (the veteran, compare to Wood), John Goebel (another veteran, compare to Riddick), and Isaiah Pead (speedy youngster, compare to Atkinson) in the running game to make things easier. It wasn't always effective, but a decent defense and servicable run game resulted in less pressure against the passing game, which in turn lead to a 10-win season... Tony Pike didn't have to win games with his arm until later in the season when he started to figure things out.

Compare this to Wood, Riddick and Atkinson getting work in the run game while a stellar D will keep every game within reach, and I feel just fine with the offense to this point. It will work eventually, BK is just easing everyone into the process. Golson, Rees, and all WRs included... and he can afford to do so considering the Irish defense and its current dominance.

I understand what your saying but disagree. The run game needs to be effective throughout the game. When it's effective it opens the passing lanes. The purpose of an effective run game late is to put the game away after you build the lead.

 

[Ultimate Penn St. Hater]

Is Amir Carlisle going to be red-shirted?

 

[IrishLion]

I understand what your saying but disagree. The run game needs to be effective throughout the game. When it's effective it opens the passing lanes. The purpose of an effective run game late is to put the game away after you build the lead.

I completely agree, but I think the run game has been effective enough (at least more so than people realize)... it's third down that has been the problem. And again, I think BK is okay with keeping it vanilla, even on third down, because ND can punt for field position and send a dominant defense back out. Why risk an interception on third down when you can force the opposing offense to try and win the game?

And again, simply based on offensive talent , even after two interceptions, I believe that BK could've sent Golson back out and let him throw for 200+ yards... but he won't do that until he sees an opposing offense that can beat the defense consistantly. And ND won't see one of those until Oklahoma and USC (and possibly Stanford if their QB improves). He was confident enough to put the game in the hands of the defense against MSU and against Denard, so why take risks? It will click for Golson eventually, and then ND will truly be an offensive juggernaut, passing AND rushing at will.

 

[luckyfc]

Is Amir Carlisle going to be red-shirted?

It is much more a matter of how what the line is doing imo. I also think with our speed we need to find ways to run outside ... quick pitch, unblanced line, etc

 

[Irish To The Core]

Patulski, I disagree with your position re. the running game and Warriner. Everybody we have played since Navy has stacked the box with 7/8/9 guys and made it nearly impossible to run. Against Purdue and MSU our passing game was sufficient to get the job done (save for the pass protection vs. Purdue) Against Michigan Golson was off his game and Rees mostly threw swing passes and short patterns except for the surprise 3rd down strike to Eiffert.

The run game looks no worse than last year but teams are gambling that our passing game cannot be effective consistently. Golson can play better than he did vs. Michigan and with a bye week to get ready, I will wager he forces Miami to adopt a more balanced defensive approach opening up the running game by half time if not earlier.

 

[stlnd01]

This, it's shades of the 2002 team for sure. Stingy defense that could score points on their own, and an offense that was atrocious.

Our offense isn't great. But it's not atrocious. We've played three pretty good defenses so far, defenses that are stacking the box and making our young QB beat them. And we're playing it safe because our defense has been lights-out, so we have that luxury. But we've got talent out there. A lot more than in 2002.

 

[CarrollVermin]

The second half was better than I thought after watching DownintheBend's post on YouTube. We did a better job running the ball and Tommy controlled the tempo better. He did miss a few reads on hot routes which could have led to bigger plays.

This is all going to come down to which QB gives us the better chance at winning. Tommy has played well in relief and brings a full play book and more versatility in the passing game. You can't stack the box as well against him. But Golson brings his athleticism and escapability. The possession in which Golson threw the INT in the end zone wasn't a bad possession until the INT. So what's more important as we move forward?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Yes, we changed from a man to a zone scheme. However, Cave, Golic, Watt and Martin all had a year with Latina who also ran a zone blocking scheme. Wood and Riddick were on the team as well. So, they have some experience with it.

I don't think that's right. Kelly has always run a zone blocking scheme. The vast majority of our running plays has consisted of Inside Zone, Outside Zone, and Power O.

 

[NDBlood8]

Ineffective run game

Ineffective run game

May have been talked about already, but I don't understand how the coaches don't see how much more effective Cierre is than our other RB options. I also wonder now about how good our run game was last year compared to this year's version (is that the new coaching?). Remember, Michigan was supposed to be weak on the D-Line, i.e. Alabama. We made them look much better than they are at the run game. Still, very glad to be discussing this after a win despite these issues. Years past it was always after a defeat.

 

[Domina Nostra]

The loss of Michael Floyd was a big hit. We just aren't scaring teams on the outside. BUT I do think the play calling is a little vanilla.

 

[Irish#1]

May have been talked about already, but I don't understand how the coaches don't see how much more effective Cierre is than our other RB options. I also wonder now about how good our run game was last year compared to this year's version (is that the new coaching?). Remember, Michigan was supposed to be weak on the D-Line, i.e. Alabama. We made them look much better than they are at the run game. Still, very glad to be discussing this after a win despite these issues. Years past it was always after a defeat.

I don't have anything to hang my hat on, but my gut tells me Woods isn't completely out of the doghouse just yet. During the telecast they mentioned his suspension and then referenced him being a free spirit. That stuck with me.

Good points about stacking the box, getting some yards late in the game and playing against three good defenses, yet I would still like see us be more effective early in the game. It sets the tone for the rest of the game and forces teams to stack the box which as we know opens up the passing game.

Conversely, a good passing game can force teams to play safe in the secondary which forces teams to pull the safties back. Right now Golson isn't to the point where he can use the passing game to open up the running game. I think Rees is advanced enough to do that as we saw last year. Not saying TR should be the starter, just an observation.

 

[ND NYC]

there will come a time when the defense is NOT playing lights out, and will give up the big play...or big plays...(to be honest-our secondary still scares me and keeps me up at night)...and this team will need to come from behind...could be from 1 score down could be 2 scores down...and this offense will need to win the game and not just play not to lose it. that will be the test for us. frustrating thing is that we finally, finally have a stout D....and yet the offense is still struggling, has fits and starts, hasnt fond its rhthym. like you guys said above, better to be discussing this at 4-0...but there are a lot of 4-0 teams out there... and this is a long season.

 

[Patulski]

]
The run game looks no worse than last year but teams are gambling that our passing game cannot be effective consistently. Golson can play better than he did vs. Michigan and with a bye week to get ready, I will wager he forces Miami to adopt a more balanced defensive approach opening up the running game by half time if not earlier.

Nobody has stacked the box when we didn't go to a 2 and 3 TE formations. When we do, everybody stacks the box. Why wouldn't they? We are the ones dictating the defensive alignment by our personnel group. So, it is up to us to block it correctly. If we go 3-4-5 wide, nobody is going to stack the box.

Everybody stacks the box against Stanford too, but they have the advantage of mostly going with a QB under center and using a varying snap count that keeps the defense from teeing off. I watched their game against USC and knowing the snap count allows them to get off the ball much quicker and get to the linebackers.

There wasn't one game in our first 4 games last year where we rushed under 100 yards. Twice this year we've been limited below 100 and we only had 52 against PU. Navy really has inflated our numbers.

There's no evidence so far that Kelly's going to use Golson much as as a running QB. He's an OK scrambler though, even though I think he's bailed from the pocket too early in some cases.