The Irish Envy Consensus

[IrishinSyria]

Things seem to have gotten tense around here lately. The internet tends to focus and exaggerate differences people have. So, in an effort to focus on our common ground, I've decided to start a thread focusing on things most reasonable people will agree on. Feel free to add to the thread, or to voice disagreement. If you do so, however, please remain respectful and be ready to present a coherent argument as to why you disagree...


1) The Irish have made vast improvements in their fundamentals over the past two seasons. Whether it's blocking down field or wrapping up on tackles, the Irish are doing the little things that win football games. This is something that was noticeably lacking in the last years of CW's tenure, and should be seen as a credit to both the players and the coaching staff.

2) The running game has exceeded all expectations. As a caveat to this, we can also all agree that the loss of Jonas Gray really hurts. This is a credit to both Wood and Gray as well as to our O-line, coaching staff, and receivers.

3) Tommy Rees has exceeded all expectations. When Tommy was recruited, people were wondering why. After his performances coming off the bench against Michigan and Tulsa, the criticism was even sharper. 12-2 as a starter was something nobody saw coming, and Rees is due a lot of credit for the recent success of ND.

4) ND needs better performance from its QB next year. Seem like a contradiction? It's not. Tommy exceeded relatively low expectations this year. If he wants to continue to be the starter at the University of Notre Dame and to beat teams like Michigan and OU next year, he's going to have to elevate his game. If he can't do it, the coaching staff needs to identify somebody who will. There's no shortage of talent on ND's roster at QB, for the spread offense to be fully realized we're going to need to see the fruits of that talent.

5) Kelly has done very well recruiting. While reasonable fans can disagree as to whether Kiel or Mauk are better suited to Kelly's offense, everybody can agree that Kelly has maintained CW's trend of recruiting top-end classes and even improved it in certain areas- such as the D line.

6) ND can beat Stanford, but they will need to play an excellent game to do so. Self-explanatory.


Looking for feedback here. Is this list fair? Any strong disagreements? Can we all agree and get along?

GO IRISH, BEAT TREE!

 

[phork]

 

[irishff1014]

Things seem to have gotten tense around here lately. The internet tends to focus and exaggerate differences people have. So, in an effort to focus on our common ground, I've decided to start a thread focusing on things most reasonable people will agree on. Feel free to add to the thread, or to voice disagreement. If you do so, however, please remain respectful and be ready to present a coherent argument as to why you disagree...


1) The Irish have made vast improvements in their fundamentals over the past two seasons. Whether it's blocking down field or wrapping up on tackles, the Irish are doing the little things that win football games. This is something that was noticeably lacking in the last years of CW's tenure, and should be seen as a credit to both the players and the coaching staff.

2) The running game has exceeded all expectations. As a caveat to this, we can also all agree that the loss of Jonas Gray really hurts. This is a credit to both Wood and Gray as well as to our O-line, coaching staff, and receivers.

3) Tommy Rees has exceeded all expectations. When Tommy was recruited, people were wondering why. After his performances coming off the bench against Michigan and Tulsa, the criticism was even sharper. 12-2 as a starter was something nobody saw coming, and Rees is due a lot of credit for the recent success of ND.

4) ND needs better performance from its QB next year. Seem like a contradiction? It's not. Tommy exceeded relatively low expectations this year. If he wants to continue to be the starter at the University of Notre Dame and to beat teams like Michigan and OU next year, he's going to have to elevate his game. If he can't do it, the coaching staff needs to identify somebody who will. There's no shortage of talent on ND's roster at QB, for the spread offense to be fully realized we're going to need to see the fruits of that talent.

5) Kelly has done very well recruiting. While reasonable fans can disagree as to whether Kiel or Mauk are better suited to Kelly's offense, everybody can agree that Kelly has maintained CW's trend of recruiting top-end classes and even improved it in certain areas- such as the D line.

6) ND can beat Stanford, but they will need to play an excellent game to do so. Self-explanatory.


Looking for feedback here. Is this list fair? Any strong disagreements? Can we all agree and get along?

GO IRISH, BEAT TREE!

You made some very good points. I don't believe anyone on this site expected the running game to be any wheres near this good. I also do believe this team has made some improvements but still have more to grow to be a very good team. I think anyone that said kelly wouldn't be able to recruit has now learned that fooled their selves.

 

[DillonHall]

Tommy has not exceeded my expectations by any stretch of the imagination. I thought he'd be much improved this year, and that's clearly not the case. (How did you think this statement would gain consensus?!)

But I agree with everything else.

 

[tadman95]

Tommy has not exceeded my expectations by any stretch of the imagination. I thought he'd be much improved this year, and that's clearly not the case. (How did you think this statement would gain consensus?!)

But I agree with everything else.

I have to agree with this. I've tried to be supportive of Tommy, and will remain so, but what I saw at the Wake Forest game was a lot of throws that missed receivers or put them in a bad position to advance the ball when they caught it. It was disappointing. Thought maybe it was just a bad game but I don't think so.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Tommy has not exceeded my expectations by any stretch of the imagination. I thought he'd be much improved this year, and that's clearly not the case. (How did you think this statement would gain consensus?!)

But I agree with everything else.

I meant the expectations of him when he was recruited.

 

[tadman95]

Fair enough

 

[Old Man Mike]

Who would have guessed it? Another attempt at creating a thread in hopes of a positive board experience that is well on it's way to another Tommy Rees p!ssing contest already. Our creativity continues to astonish me daily. My prediction is that this will still be going on in the year 2098, when several of us will be blissfully singing joyful songs in the hereafter, including Tommy himself.

 

[eNDzone]

Things seem to have gotten tense around here lately. The internet tends to focus and exaggerate differences people have. So, in an effort to focus on our common ground, I've decided to start a thread focusing on things most reasonable people will agree on. Feel free to add to the thread, or to voice disagreement. If you do so, however, please remain respectful and be ready to present a coherent argument as to why you disagree...


1) The Irish have made vast improvements in their fundamentals over the past two seasons. Whether it's blocking down field or wrapping up on tackles, the Irish are doing the little things that win football games. This is something that was noticeably lacking in the last years of CW's tenure, and should be seen as a credit to both the players and the coaching staff.

2) The running game has exceeded all expectations. As a caveat to this, we can also all agree that the loss of Jonas Gray really hurts. This is a credit to both Wood and Gray as well as to our O-line, coaching staff, and receivers.

3) Tommy Rees has exceeded all expectations. When Tommy was recruited, people were wondering why. After his performances coming off the bench against Michigan and Tulsa, the criticism was even sharper. 12-2 as a starter was something nobody saw coming, and Rees is due a lot of credit for the recent success of ND.

4) ND needs better performance from its QB next year. Seem like a contradiction? It's not. Tommy exceeded relatively low expectations this year. If he wants to continue to be the starter at the University of Notre Dame and to beat teams like Michigan and OU next year, he's going to have to elevate his game. If he can't do it, the coaching staff needs to identify somebody who will. There's no shortage of talent on ND's roster at QB, for the spread offense to be fully realized we're going to need to see the fruits of that talent.

5) Kelly has done very well recruiting. While reasonable fans can disagree as to whether Kiel or Mauk are better suited to Kelly's offense, everybody can agree that Kelly has maintained CW's trend of recruiting top-end classes and even improved it in certain areas- such as the D line.

6) ND can beat Stanford, but they will need to play an excellent game to do so. Self-explanatory.


Looking for feedback here. Is this list fair? Any strong disagreements? Can we all agree and get along?

GO IRISH, BEAT TREE!

Agreed. I would add Kelly's "Next Man In" philosophy is bearing fruits. Considering the injuries to key players both this year and last year ND has finished both seasons well by having substitutes that are ready to play. Also recruiting a top end D line was not enough. Kelly has shown a commitment to depth by getting verbals from Jones and Day.

 

[irishog77]

Things seem to have gotten tense around here lately. The internet tends to focus and exaggerate differences people have. So, in an effort to focus on our common ground, I've decided to start a thread focusing on things most reasonable people will agree on. Feel free to add to the thread, or to voice disagreement. If you do so, however, please remain respectful and be ready to present a coherent argument as to why you disagree...


1) The Irish have made vast improvements in their fundamentals over the past two seasons. Whether it's blocking down field or wrapping up on tackles, the Irish are doing the little things that win football games. This is something that was noticeably lacking in the last years of CW's tenure, and should be seen as a credit to both the players and the coaching staff.

2) The running game has exceeded all expectations. As a caveat to this, we can also all agree that the loss of Jonas Gray really hurts. This is a credit to both Wood and Gray as well as to our O-line, coaching staff, and receivers.

3) Tommy Rees has exceeded all expectations. When Tommy was recruited, people were wondering why. After his performances coming off the bench against Michigan and Tulsa, the criticism was even sharper. 12-2 as a starter was something nobody saw coming, and Rees is due a lot of credit for the recent success of ND.

4) ND needs better performance from its QB next year. Seem like a contradiction? It's not. Tommy exceeded relatively low expectations this year. If he wants to continue to be the starter at the University of Notre Dame and to beat teams like Michigan and OU next year, he's going to have to elevate his game. If he can't do it, the coaching staff needs to identify somebody who will. There's no shortage of talent on ND's roster at QB, for the spread offense to be fully realized we're going to need to see the fruits of that talent.

5) Kelly has done very well recruiting. While reasonable fans can disagree as to whether Kiel or Mauk are better suited to Kelly's offense, everybody can agree that Kelly has maintained CW's trend of recruiting top-end classes and even improved it in certain areas- such as the D line.

6) ND can beat Stanford, but they will need to play an excellent game to do so. Self-explanatory.


Looking for feedback here. Is this list fair? Any strong disagreements? Can we all agree and get along?

GO IRISH, BEAT TREE!

Good post.

I thought whoever ended up being the QB this year would have preformed better. Is Rees better than I thought he would be coming out of HS? Yes, absolutely. But I essentially had no decent expectations for him.

Honestly, I think it's a tad early to say BK has done very well recruiting. I think he certainly got some players in one area of need last year(DL), but could've stood to land another one or two DB's or WR's. As for the current sophomores, I really can't give him any blame or credit for bringing those guys on board. He came in in a tough, less than desirable situation as far as recruiting goes. As far as this year goes, he's off to a pretty good start, but signing day is still 2 1/2 months out...so I'll withhold judgement until then. Also, as far as withholding judgement goes, Davy and Weis had highly regarded recruiting classes too. The results of those didn't necessarily translate to victories on the field though. Was it because the players may have been a little overrated coming out, or were the coaches not able to develop the players, or some of both? I think Kelly will absolutely develop his players better than the 3 Wisemen that were Tybob Weisinghamey, I'm just not ready to say, definitively, right now that Kelly has recruited very well. I'm encouraged and I want to think he has, but I think the final verdict on that is still a little ways off.

 

[TerryTate]

I can agree with all of your points

I appreciate the rational thought process.

 

[tadman95]

Who would have guessed it? Another attempt at creating a thread in hopes of a positive board experience that is well on it's way to another Tommy Rees p!ssing contest already. Our creativity continues to astonish me daily. My prediction is that this will still be going on in the year 2098, when several of us will be blissfully singing joyful songs in the hereafter, including Tommy himself.

Geez....I thought the premise included agreeing or voicing disagreement. Agreed 5 out of 6. What'd I miss?

 

[phork]

Geez....I thought the premise included agreeing or voicing disagreement. Agreed 5 out of 6. What'd I miss?

He is old... What more can you expect.

 

[PatsandBostonfan1975]

I love Rees reminds me of a young Brady (honestly) when he first came in league I didnt know what he exceled at but he won and I liked that. Brian Kelly keeps Improving each year what else can you ask for ?. I love the kids he is recruiting and Notre dame will be BCS bound in next few years .

 

[IrishinSyria]

Things seem to have gotten tense around here lately. The internet tends to focus and exaggerate differences people have. So, in an effort to focus on our common ground, I've decided to start a thread focusing on things most reasonable people will agree on. Feel free to add to the thread, or to voice disagreement. If you do so, however, please remain respectful and be ready to present a coherent argument as to why you disagree...

Happy with this thread so far. People have done a good job with that last bit. I didn't try to avoid controversial subjects, rather I took them and looked for common ground. Tommy is one of those, so I expected some chatter about it. Good stuff.

 

[DillonHall]

When it comes to Tommy, I think almost all of us can agree that he's done an admirable job in winning games at the University of Notre Dame, which is a pretty big deal. However, I think most of us can also agree that either he needs to improve dramatically or someone else needs to take his spot in order for ND to win a national championship. I believe that Tommy is good enough to get this team (which has great talent around him) to the BCS in the next two years (if he were to remain the starter), but a national championship is a completely different story. We will never have a top SEC defense, so our only chance is to combine a solid, top 25 defense with an explosive offense, and the current Tommy Rees cannot lead such an offense.

 

[Patulski]

Good post.

I think the thing that Rees has not been given enough credit for is his resiliency. Mayock spoke about this Saturday night, when Rees went something like 9-11 with a drop after he threw the interception. I suspect this is why Kelly sticks with him, though I believe if a better QB emerges to help us win easier, he will start next year. Kelly strikes me as a coach where winning supersedes any other considerations. If Rees is the starter next year, it will be because Kelly believes he gives us the best chance to win.

 

[irishtrinity]

We will never have a top SEC defense

True we will NEVER have a top SEC defense... Only b/c we will Never be in the SEC lol..

1.ND vs SEC 46 Games played 32 Won 14 Lost 69.6 Win% thats called Domination!!!
2. Per decade 2000's W L
2 2
1990's 6 3
Thats recent also..

Great thread i'm with you guys talk ND FOOTBALL...

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Honestly, I think it's a tad early to say BK has done very well recruiting. I think he certainly got some players in one area of need last year(DL), but could've stood to land another one or two DB's or WR's. As for the current sophomores, I really can't give him any blame or credit for bringing those guys on board. He came in in a tough, less than desirable situation as far as recruiting goes. As far as this year goes, he's off to a pretty good start, but signing day is still 2 1/2 months out...so I'll withhold judgement until then. Also, as far as withholding judgement goes, Davy and Weis had highly regarded recruiting classes too. The results of those didn't necessarily translate to victories on the field though. Was it because the players may have been a little overrated coming out, or were the coaches not able to develop the players, or some of both? I think Kelly will absolutely develop his players better than the 3 Wisemen that were Tybob Weisinghamey, I'm just not ready to say, definitively, right now that Kelly has recruited very well. I'm encouraged and I want to think he has, but I think the final verdict on that is still a little ways off.

He salvaged a top 20 class during the transition, and signed a top 5 class last January if you include Prestwood's transfer. If we land even a few of the big fish we're still in contention with, we could easily end up with another top 5 class.

I have no doubts about Kelly's chops as a recruiter.

 

[dshans]

He is old... What more can you expect.

Careful now, Junior ...

 

[Grahambo]

Rees reminds me of Greg McElroy to be honest.

 

[irishog77]

He salvaged a top 20 class during the transition, and signed a top 5 class last January if you include Prestwood's transfer. If we land even a few of the big fish we're still in contention with, we could easily end up with another top 5 class.

I have no doubts about Kelly's chops as a recruiter.

Like I said, I still want to see this year's class play out until NSD. Two top 5, 10ish classes back to back will help solidify to me that he is recruiting very well. I guess I'm still skittish from past coaches getting good players, but then not getting good results in the form of dubyas. I realize too that former failures when considering recruiting results versus game results doesn't mean that the coach now in place will have the same results as his predecessors. What happens if ND doesn't land any of these big fish we're all hoping they do? ND will end up with a top 20, top 25ish class. Obviously I hope this doesn't happen, nor do I think it will, but that would give ND a ~20 class, a 5-10 class, and ~20-25 class. That averages out to be decent to pretty good. But let's hope it plays out to be a 4-6 class this year! Come on down, Kiel, Odenigbo, Agholor, Banner, Garnett, Armstead, Marshall, and some other DB! I'll certainly come much, much closer to qualifying BK as recruiting very well then- haha!

 

[Andy in Sactown]

The Irish Envy Consensus is an oxymoron.

 

[BeauBenken]

The Irish Envy Consensus? You mean...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/BpgDtoj73DQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

[sigh]

How can you start a kumbaya thread and have a major part of it be about Tommy?

Its like the President saying, Ok, lets try to negotiate peace in the middle east: First, Isreal gets Jerusalem. Ok, lets get the negotiations started...

 

[palinurus]

When it comes to Tommy, I think almost all of us can agree that he's done an admirable job in winning games at the University of Notre Dame, which is a pretty big deal. However, I think most of us can also agree that either he needs to improve dramatically or someone else needs to take his spot in order for ND to win a national championship. I believe that Tommy is good enough to get this team (which has great talent around him) to the BCS in the next two years (if he were to remain the starter), but a national championship is a completely different story. We will never have a top SEC defense, so our only chance is to combine a solid, top 25 defense with an explosive offense, and the current Tommy Rees cannot lead such an offense.

I agree. It's not an unfair criticism of Rees to note that he's not exactly the type of quarterback that you would craft from mud and muscle to run Kelly's offense. Kelly's attempt to incorporate Hendrix is at least partially related to that recognition. Rees has been quite successful in results, plays within himself, and (based on a trust in both Kelly's desire to win (rather than just be right) and his coaching judgment) is the best option right now. He may be the best option next year and beyond, too, though the lack of mobility is the biggest problem, even without wondering about arm strength. I trust that, as someone said, Kelly will put the team above his personal regard for any player, so I think we will see others get an open shot next year. He did it this year, and he didn't give Golson a redshirt for no reason.

I agree with the other points in the original post. I've commented on Kelly's recruiting, which I think is a great strong suit of his. I'd like to just keep piling on the team speed, offense and defense. That's what makes the SEC defenses so good; most good teams have guys that hit hard; the elite teams have speed. That's why I love recruits like Darby. It's why we all drool over Lynch and Tuitt.

(I also don't understand why the defense has not had more turnovers....My guess it's because Diaco has crafted a more conservative defensive style, that includes a concern that the lack of overall speed makes it harder to cover the mistakes that can come with trying to run a big play, aggressive defense. But I may be wrong.)

The contribution of so many freshmen to a solid defense, though, is a tremendous sign, both for recruiting and the trend for the future. The team is definitely heading in the right direction. I didn't expect 12-1 this year anyway. Kelly has it right -- you've got to build an attitude and an expectation. I don't like the close wins over bad teams, either, but he's right that you do have develop that "we'll win even when we play lousy" mindset. And other than Michigan, I don't see the late phase mental weardown that I saw in the CW era.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Several of the defensive players have said exactly this; the defensive scheme is structured to make yards tough to get and long plays even harder. Therefore, the scheme favors types of play which are not risk-taking. When Lo Wood ran back his INT, other players were saying that they were delighted but that the reason that this did not happen more is "that's not what this defense is all about".

 

[Mr. Larson]

When it comes to Tommy, I think almost all of us can agree that he's done an admirable job in winning games at the University of Notre Dame, which is a pretty big deal. However, I think most of us can also agree that either he needs to improve dramatically or someone else needs to take his spot in order for ND to win a national championship. I believe that Tommy is good enough to get this team (which has great talent around him) to the BCS in the next two years (if he were to remain the starter), but a national championship is a completely different story. We will never have a top SEC defense, so our only chance is to combine a solid, top 25 defense with an explosive offense, and the current Tommy Rees cannot lead such an offense.

Disagree. We already have a studly foundation in Lynch, Tuitt, and Nix. You know, the type of players "ND isn't capable of landing anymore".

(Since this is a consensus building thread) Can we all agree that it's too early to tell if ND can build a Top SEC defense?

 

[irishtrinity]

Disagree. We already have a studly foundation in Lynch, Tuitt, and Nix. You know, the type of players "ND isn't capable of landing anymore".

(Since this is a consensus building thread) Can we all agree that it's too early to tell if ND can build a Top SEC defense?

Thank you we have beaten the SEC to death... Our defense is better than the SEC.. History doesn't lie.. WE HAVE A WINNING RECORD AGAINST THE SEC..

 

[Mr. Larson]

Thank you we have beaten the SEC to death... Our defense is better than the SEC.. History doesn't lie.. WE HAVE A WINNING RECORD AGAINST THE SEC..

I was talking about the young foundation of our current defense.