The IE Thunderdome (Debate Thread)

[zelezo vlk]

Shout out to Lion for the title.

In this thread, we debate sports topics. Typically they will be about ND or CFB in general, but we can talk other leagues too. Be nice, be reasonable, and most of all do not let Koon sneak back to IE and flood this thread with his garbage. Offer your own answers for any topic or debate somebody else's. Just have fun with it.

Our inaugural topic: Who was the right hire in 2014?

My answer: BK spurns BVG and hires then-DL coach Mike Elston to replace Bob Diaco. We all know that BVG was an unmitigated disaster of a hire, but who was a good option? I say Elston, who had consistently coached the strength of the defense, the D line, and was a good recruiter. Now we gotta be realistic in who BK could hire back in 2014. Sure BVG wasn't the only option, but there's no chance they could have pried Venables from Clemson. Another option could have been Ed O, who went 2014 without a job, but I'm not sure that people were very high on him as a DC candidate at the time, heck his next job was as DL coach. Elko wasn't a rising name in 2014 like he was in 2017, so why would he be a realistic option?

So who else do you hire? Fans were sick and tired of Diaco's bend but don't break defense and wanted something more aggressive, which they got with BVG. Elston could have kept a lot of the stuff from Diaco that worked and switched over to a 4-3 or a more multiple defense. Basically my line of thinking is you keep the strong D line play hire another LB coach and boom, you've got a significant upgrade over BVG and possibly an upgrade over Diaco. Keep in mind that once Bob was gone, the insistence upon perfect measurables for recruits goes with him. That would automatically lead to better recruitment, as Elston isn't a lazy bum like Van Gorder.

I actually think that the 2014 DC hire was the most influential moment in BK's career (a topic I'd love to argue another day). With Elston as DC, does the 2014 team collapse like it does? Do they win in Tallahassee? I highly doubt they lose at Stanford in 2015 at least. Heck maybe they'd have even landed a couple highly ranked defenders that they missed on in those classes. The flip side is that without BVG, there's no 2016 "come to Jesus" moment for BK. Is the last 3 years' success only due to the complete disaster of BVG?

What do y'all think? Who do you hire in 2014 instead of BVG?

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I don’t know enough about individual circumstances to say who may have been reasonable candidates, but the following Defensive Coordinators were hired by new teams that offseason:

Justin Wilcox
Mike Elko
Jeremy Pruitt
Pete Kwiatkowski
Chris Ash
Charles Kelly

Those are some good coaches.

 

[Circa]

I see this thread going sideways quick. Starts off as a scientists in a suit and tie and the next thing we know....


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[GowerND11]

Alex Grinch was still a year from being Wazzu's DC, he'd have been an interesting idea.
Larry Johnson was hired in 2014 by OSU after his long standing gig at PSU as DL coach. Could he have been an option as a DC?
Kerry Coombs was OSU's DB coach still and now their DC. He did coach under BK at Cincy.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Alex Grinch was still a year from being Wazzu's DC, he'd have been an interesting idea.
Larry Johnson was hired in 2014 by OSU after his long standing gig at PSU as DL coach. Could he have been an option as a DC?
Kerry Coombs was OSU's DB coach still and now their DC. He did coach under BK at Cincy.

I don't know why, but I thought Larry Johnson hates ND for some reason or another. Also unsure if he even wants to be a DC, hell he's been a DL coach since the 90s.

Is there a reason Coombs didn't follow BK to ND?

 

[IrishLion]

I don't know why, but I thought Larry Johnson hates ND for some reason or another. Also unsure if he even wants to be a DC, hell he's been a DL coach since the 90s.

Is there a reason Coombs didn't follow BK to ND?

He still had too much emotional attachment to the Cincy area and local guys on the roster at the time.

The further out he got from his high school coaching days at Colerain, the easier it was for him to make a move. Columbus being *just* two hours up the highway probably made it an easier transition in leaving the Cincy area when he finally decided to do it.

 

[Legacy]

Above and beyond recent NCAA changes and stipends, should players be paid?

Should undergraduate players have to sit out a year after a transfer to a FBS team?

 

[RDU Irish]

Isn't the better question, who on campus at the time would have been worse than BVG?

 

[zelezo vlk]

Isn't the better question, who on campus at the time would have been worse than BVG?

Longo, who was I think blind in 2016 could have done a better job. Possibly

 

[Luckylucci]

Longo, who was I think blind in 2016 could have done a better job. Possibly

I saw a list the other day that had the most QB pressures in a single year during the Brian Kelly era and Sheldon Day (15.5 TFL's and 4 sacks) was in the top for 5 for his 2015 performance. That defense also had Romeo Okwara who had 13.5 TFL's and 9 sacks. Plus, Jaylon freaking Smith and loads of quality role players. We finished 29th in Def S&P+ rating. Not even top 25. What a complete Moron BVG was.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I saw a list the other day that had the most QB pressures in a single year during the Brian Kelly era and Sheldon Day (15.5 TFL's and 4 sacks) was in the top for 5 for his 2015 performance. That defense also had Romeo Okwara who had 13.5 TFL's and 9 sacks. Plus, Jaylon freaking Smith and loads of quality role players. We finished 29th in Def S&P+ rating. Not even top 25. What a complete Moron BVG was.

They had moments of playing good defense in 2014 and 2015, but man there was so much wasted talent. 2014 -2016 were such awful wasted opportunities due to a terrible DC hire. Food for thought on how essential getting the right hire is.

 

[IrishLion]

Above and beyond recent NCAA changes and stipends, should players be paid?

They should be allowed to profit off of their NIL, which is coming.

I do NOT think they should be paid by schools beyond tuition and stipends, though I think stipends should increase to ensure students at non-power 5 schools aren't dealing with food issues if they have to stay on campus during break periods, or during the offseason if the training table isn't available.

Should undergraduate players have to sit out a year after a transfer to a FBS team?

I'm in favor of a one-time, penalty-free transfer.

And it's not even about giving players more power (which isn't a bad thing, IMO). It's about the current inconsistency in the waiver process. There seems to be no rhyme, reason, or common sense in how waivers are currently granted. The best way to solve the issue is to remove roadblocks.

People worry about 'free agency' or players jumping shit from small schools to big programs... but I think those worries are overstated. The balance of power is already about as out-of-whack as it can get, and the best players from small schools are already jumping ship when it makes sense as grad transfers.

 

[GowerND11]

They should be allowed to profit off of their NIL, which is coming.

I do NOT think they should be paid by schools beyond tuition and stipends, though I think stipends should increase to ensure students at non-power 5 schools aren't dealing with food issues if they have to stay on campus during break periods, or during the offseason if the training table isn't available.



I'm in favor of a one-time, penalty-free transfer.

And it's not even about giving players more power (which isn't a bad thing, IMO). It's about the current inconsistency in the waiver process. There seems to be no rhyme, reason, or common sense in how waivers are currently granted. The best way to solve the issue is to remove roadblocks.

People worry about 'free agency' or players jumping shit from small schools to big programs... but I think those worries are overstated. The balance of power is already about as out-of-whack as it can get, and the best players from small schools are already jumping ship when it makes sense as grad transfers.

All of this I can get behind!

 

[Legacy]

They should be allowed to profit off of their NIL, which is coming.

I do NOT think they should be paid by schools beyond tuition and stipends, though I think stipends should increase to ensure students at non-power 5 schools aren't dealing with food issues if they have to stay on campus during break periods, or during the offseason if the training table isn't available.



I'm in favor of a one-time, penalty-free transfer.

And it's not even about giving players more power (which isn't a bad thing, IMO). It's about the current inconsistency in the waiver process. There seems to be no rhyme, reason, or common sense in how waivers are currently granted. The best way to solve the issue is to remove roadblocks.

People worry about 'free agency' or players jumping shit from small schools to big programs... but I think those worries are overstated. The balance of power is already about as out-of-whack as it can get, and the best players from small schools are already jumping ship when it makes sense as grad transfers.

From today's vantage point, I don't see much of this that I cannot take another side. We do accept that athletes in football and basketball from the top money-making universities do not benefit individually from the TV contracts, apparel deals, conference distribution revenue, etc. At least at ND, athletes do not live in separate dorms but live with other students worried about paying for their student debt after graduation. All have a real appreciation of what a degree means, regardless of whether they emerge with debt or without. Food and stipend as you described - sure.

What I would add to a one time transfer would be lowering the time before early entry into the NFL Draft to two years, though that's under the NFL's control. All those players who think highly of their talents and don't wish to have the benefits of college can leave a year earlier than they do now. Why not let them have the opportunity to make money sooner and more than tuition, endorsements and a stipend? Maybe that leads to a NFL minor league for some, but the Trevor Lawrences enter earlier, if they want. There will be pain as some never get chosen in a draft and cannot play college football again. It'll work itself out. The football factories may lose as the players they give phony degrees leave early.

If only Jimmy Clausen could have endorsed Hummers. In football, the endorsement deals will fall to those in skill positions rather than the big uglies and comprised more of whites than AAs. College athletics is changing.

 

[EvilleIrish]

I saw a list the other day that had the most QB pressures in a single year during the Brian Kelly era and Sheldon Day (15.5 TFL's and 4 sacks) was in the top for 5 for his 2015 performance. That defense also had Romeo Okwara who had 13.5 TFL's and 9 sacks. Plus, Jaylon freaking Smith and loads of quality role players. We finished 29th in Def S&P+ rating. Not even top 25. What a complete Moron BVG was.

I'll go to my grave that 2015 was BK's best shot to win it all if ND had even a decent DC.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Alright this site has been dead for a while and we need something to distract us. Who's down for another topic? Y'all have one you wanna hash out? I've got a couple more

 

[IrishLion]

PJ Fleck is the best choice to be Notre Dame's next head coach.

F*ck his red flags, f*ck the skeletons in his closet, f*ck the criticism of his cheesy attitude and catch phrases.

The man recruits his balls off, he wins football games, and he's an elite motivator.

At this point, with the heavy-lifting that BK has done to get this program back into perennial top-10 territory (he should get a statue for his work, never mind that he hasn't won a natty), they need someone that will coach and recruit with fire and passion to get them over the top.

PJ Fleck is that dude.

 

[notredomer23]

PJ Fleck is the best choice to be Notre Dame's next head coach.

F*ck his red flags, f*ck the skeletons in his closet, f*ck the criticism of his cheesy attitude and catch phrases.

The man recruits his balls off, he wins football games, and he's an elite motivator.

At this point, with the heavy-lifting that BK has done to get this program back into perennial top-10 territory (he should get a statue for his work, never mind that he hasn't won a natty), they need someone that will coach and recruit with fire and passion to get them over the top.

PJ Fleck is that dude.

 

[zelezo vlk]

PJ Fleck is the best choice to be Notre Dame's next head coach.

F*ck his red flags, f*ck the skeletons in his closet, f*ck the criticism of his cheesy attitude and catch phrases.

The man recruits his balls off, he wins football games, and he's an elite motivator.

At this point, with the heavy-lifting that BK has done to get this program back into perennial top-10 territory (he should get a statue for his work, never mind that he hasn't won a natty), they need someone that will coach and recruit with fire and passion to get them over the top.

PJ Fleck is that dude.

I'm coming around to this idea, as Fleck is clearly a great recruiter and good motivator. Now I'm of the opinion that ND doesn't actually give him the job for reasons, so I'm hoping that somebody else can step up and be a good candidate when BK hangs it up within the next 5 years. I've stolen from Crus' list to include Brohm out of Purdue and Scott Satterfield outta Louisville.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm coming around to this idea, as Fleck is clearly a great recruiter and good motivator. Now I'm of the opinion that ND doesn't actually give him the job for reasons, so I'm hoping that somebody else can step up and be a good candidate when BK hangs it up within the next 5 years. I've stolen from Crus' list to include Brohm out of Purdue and Scott Satterfield outta Louisville.

I was sold on him after the first quarter of the first game of '19 lol. ND needed to get its footing on defense, but that didn't change that Satterfield had those dudes ready to go right away. It will be very interesting to see how big a step they take in year two.

I was co-leader of the "Brohm for Next ND Head Coach" fan club, but last year threw out some red flags. If he could coach the way he recruits wide receivers, he'd win the B1G West no problem. Let's see how it goes this year with his guys getting older.

 

[Irish#1]

I was sold on him after the first quarter of the first game of '19 lol. ND needed to get its footing on defense, but that didn't change that Satterfield had those dudes ready to go right away. It will be very interesting to see how big a step they take in year two.

I was co-leader of the "Brohm for Next ND Head Coach" fan club, but last year threw out some red flags. If he could coach the way he recruits wide receivers, he'd win the B1G West no problem. Let's see how it goes this year with his guys getting older.

I give Brohm a pass for last year. Purdue was riddled with injuries especially at key positions.

 

[NDRock]

I'm coming around to this idea, as Fleck is clearly a great recruiter and good motivator. Now I'm of the opinion that ND doesn't actually give him the job for reasons, so I'm hoping that somebody else can step up and be a good candidate when BK hangs it up within the next 5 years. I've stolen from Crus' list to include Brohm out of Purdue and Scott Satterfield outta Louisville.

What reasons?

 

[Luckylucci]

PJ Fleck is the best choice to be Notre Dame's next head coach.

F*ck his red flags, f*ck the skeletons in his closet, f*ck the criticism of his cheesy attitude and catch phrases.

The man recruits his balls off, he wins football games, and he's an elite motivator.

At this point, with the heavy-lifting that BK has done to get this program back into perennial top-10 territory (he should get a statue for his work, never mind that he hasn't won a natty), they need someone that will coach and recruit with fire and passion to get them over the top.

PJ Fleck is that dude.

I'm slowly coming around to this as well. It'd be kind of that, hold the nose while I jump in feeling, but I think his floor is higher than I previously thought.

 

[GATTACA!]

What reasons?

He had an affair! What message does that send to the children???

 

[NDRock]

He had an affair! What message does that send to the children???

That's it? Figured he pulled a Craig James or something.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

I wouldn’t mind Fleck at all. Everyone will be fine with him if he wins but the world’s stodgiest fanbase will turn on him in a heartbeat if he doesn’t succeed immediately. It’s a risky hire, I think.

 

[PANDFAN]

He had an affair! What message does that send to the children???

i sincerely hope this was written w/ invisible sarcasm font

 

[zelezo vlk]

I was sold on him after the first quarter of the first game of '19 lol. ND needed to get its footing on defense, but that didn't change that Satterfield had those dudes ready to go right away. It will be very interesting to see how big a step they take in year two.

I was co-leader of the "Brohm for Next ND Head Coach" fan club, but last year threw out some red flags. If he could coach the way he recruits wide receivers, he'd win the B1G West no problem. Let's see how it goes this year with his guys getting older.

Exactly the same here. I get that Louisville drastically underperformed in 2018, but they did a great job last year and that is because of the coach. Dude did a great job at App State too

 

[Irish#1]

I wouldn’t mind Fleck at all. Everyone will be fine with him if he wins but the world’s stodgiest fanbase will turn on him in a heartbeat if he doesn’t succeed immediately. It’s a risky hire, I think.

There's only about three coaches that wouldn't be a risky hire.

 

[Luckylucci]

I wouldn’t mind Fleck at all. Everyone will be fine with him if he wins but the world’s stodgiest fanbase will turn on him in a heartbeat if he doesn’t succeed immediately. It’s a risky hire, I think.

With so much of the fanbase invested in paper championships and top 5 classes, I'm not so sure I agree with that anymore.

Even if Fleck had some overrated clunkers, he'd be able to keep the fanbase vested with recruiting. The crazy mob mentality the fanbase has these days for recruiting stars is more real than wins/losses and doing things the right way. I've followed all 3 paid site message boards and this one for approx. 8 years now. I truly believe that there is a large swath of the fanbase that cares more about recruiting than the game itself. It's a completely different competition that some understand better than the game of football. It makes it easier for them to comprehend.

Take this offseason as an example. We're not talking about 33-6, we're talking about top 5-10 classes. We're not talking about trusting the process of evaluations, we're talking in absolutes based on ratings that were given to high schoolers.

It doesn't make sense to me, but recruiting really has taken over the fanbase. Not sure that's even debatable.