The end of Net Neutrality?

[Irish YJ]

You guys are outkicking your coverage here. Google "BAMTech" and you'll know what I do. It's exactly this.

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We didn't out kick anything. You just don't understand the carrier side.

 

[ulukinatme]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Hey, <a href="https://twitter.com/AjitPaiFCC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AjitPaiFCC</a>, today my mom would have turned 71. But she didn't. Because she died in March of 2016. Can you please take the time to explain to me how she made three separate comments in support of ending <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NetNeutrality?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#NetNeutrality</a> more than a year after she died?<br><br>cc: <a href="https://twitter.com/SeanAstin?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@SeanAstin</a> <a href="https://t.co/VtdLaB0eGp">pic.twitter.com/VtdLaB0eGp</a></p>— Mackenzie Astin (@MackenzieAstin) <a href="https://twitter.com/MackenzieAstin/status/941459382864437248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 15, 2017</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Wow...my cousin is listed as making a comment in support of the FCC's changes and he definitely did not write it. I just notified him.

 

[phgreek]

Wow...my cousin is listed as making a comment in support of the FCC's changes and he definitely did not write it. I just notified him.

Whisky...Tango...Foxtrot
Over.

thats some bizarre shit right there...who is doing this?

 

[ulukinatme]

Whisky...Tango...Foxtrot
Over.

thats some bizarre shit right there...who is doing this?

This shit is legit! Go here and type in your name: https://badcomments.attorneygeneral.gov/

Or, you can just put in your last name (If it isn't Smith or something) and it'll bring up anyone with comments that share your last name. The results come right from FCC.gov

 

[phgreek]

This shit is legit! Go here and type in your name: https://badcomments.attorneygeneral.gov/

Or, you can just put in your last name (If it isn't Smith or something) and it'll bring up anyone with comments that share your last name. The results come right from FCC.gov

One guy with my name, different address, I've come across this guy before in my professional life...He is legit. Bonus is, he said about what I'd have said...

 

[BleedBlueGold]

I am thoroughly confused by all of this. The MSM can't be trusted to give an accurate description of what all of this means. I've tried reading NPR, Reuters, etc for a break down and I'm still torn.

I think this is my bottom line: The ISP corporate giants just lobbied $26M to get this repealed. There is a reason for that. And I almost never trust that the reason will ultimately benefit the consumer down the road.

 

[Cackalacky]

I am thoroughly confused by all of this. The MSM can't be trusted to give an accurate description of what all of this means. I've tried reading NPR, Reuters, etc for a break down and I'm still torn.

I think this is my bottom line: The ISP corporate giants just lobbied $26M to get this repealed. There is a reason for that. And I almost never trust that the reason will ultimately benefit the consumer down the road.

There have been some very significant data breeches recently, most notably was the Equifax breech where 140 million people's names, SSNs, addresses, etc were all stolen by hackers. Who are they? IDK. I have not heard anyone was identified and brought to justice. IMO that is the most likely source of this and that they have "weaponized" it.

 

[arahop]

Why do I get a 35% discount on Disney merchandise? Why do Home Depot contractor club members get 5% off their purchases? Why do gas stations occasionally charge extra if you pay with a credit card? Why is my property tax bill higher than my neighbor's?

Lots of fucking reasons. What business are any of those things to the government?


The reality is, Netflix is too big and will only get bigger when 4K becomes standard. If you don't let Comcast charge them a premium to fund bandwidth expansion, then EVERYONE'S speeds go to shit.

You the customer will be charged

 

[Cackalacky]

You the customer will be charged

The beauty of trickle down economics. End users get pissed on.

 

[Cackalacky]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="und" dir="ltr">.<a href="https://twitter.com/AjitPaiFCC?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@AjitPaiFCC</a> <a href="https://t.co/BCU2dy4jrv">pic.twitter.com/BCU2dy4jrv</a></p>— Michelle (@InvisiblePinkNP) <a href="https://twitter.com/InvisiblePinkNP/status/941658276042805248?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">December 15, 2017</a></blockquote>
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[wizards8507]

You the customer will be charged

The Netflix customer SHOULD be charged.

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[Meatloaf]

The Netflix customer SHOULD be charged.

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Why?

 

[Irish#1]

We didn't out kick anything. You just don't understand the carrier side.

IYJ is correct. This is very simple. AT&T, Comcast or whomever has their infrastructure (fiber, copper, cellular). They sell to Netflix, you, me or whomever. It's up to them to increase the infrastructure as they sell more. Now if Netflix wants to pay them to build a private network for their use only that's a different story, but they're still faced with having to deal with others on the "last leg" as it's referred to.

 

[arahop]

The Netflix customer SHOULD be charged.

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How so? And we already are. And eventually the price increase will trickle down to us. I don't know one clear minded person who is okay with the end of net Neutrality.

 

[wizards8507]

How so? And we already are. And eventually the price increase will trickle down to us. I don't know one clear minded person who is okay with the end of net Neutrality.

The price increase is going to get to us eventually either way. It's just a question of whether your broadband bill goes up or your Netflix bill goes up. It's the same difference.

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[Irish#1]

The price increase is going to get to us eventually either way. It's just a question of whether your broadband bill goes up or your Netflix bill goes up. It's the same difference.

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Except that utilities have to go in front of a commission and justify an increase in rates. If approved it then gets spread across more people so the financial impact is less to you. Netflix doesn't need approval and can simply raise their rates to whatever they want when they want.

 

[Meatloaf]

The price increase is going to get to us eventually either way. It's just a question of whether your broadband bill goes up or your Netflix bill goes up. It's the same difference.

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I get what you're trying to say here given that Netflix just raised their monthly fee and cable companies always seem to fuck around with your bill. However, without NN protections, these cost increases could become even more dramatic. It's one thingbfor Netflix to raise rates of their own volition. Its another thing for them to raise rates and then raise them again because ISPs can legally enforce pay to play fees on them.

The pay to play for equal bandwith is the issue. Companies like comcast and verizon can now essentially nickle and dime internet startups to gain access to the same speeds any in house developed service would get. They're free to prioritize their own services over potential competitiors. It's anti innovation and anti free market.

 

[Irish YJ]

I am thoroughly confused by all of this. The MSM can't be trusted to give an accurate description of what all of this means. I've tried reading NPR, Reuters, etc for a break down and I'm still torn.

I think this is my bottom line: The ISP corporate giants just lobbied $26M to get this repealed. There is a reason for that. And I almost never trust that the reason will ultimately benefit the consumer down the road.

Here's an oversimplified explanation of one of the aspects....

-Take a neighborhood of 100 houses.
-Let's say they all homeowners pay for 10meg service from Comcast. 10meg is plenty to stream.
-The carrier (Comcast) is charging them for 10meg, so the network supporting the neighborhood should be able to support 10meg X 100meg (1000meg or 1Gig), right? Nope.
-The carriers network capacity however doesn't, because they have rolled the dice, haven't upgraded, or just built out for anticipated demand. Let's say the neighborhood's true capacity is only 200meg (not the 1000 meg that is being paid for).
-200meg is good enough for everyone in the neighborhood to do email, surf the net, and a few stream.
-That was good for 5 years ago. Now more people are streaming entertainment like Netflix, Amazon, Hulu, and kids are streaming their games.
-What has happened is, technology has advanced faster than the carrier's network, or the carrier simply is OK with customers not getting what they paid for.
-Carriers have never built out consumer networks for max (paid for) capacity, unless they are anticipating a bunch of new customers or providing new service themselves.
-What you are left with, is a network now that maxes out and slows down during peak usage (evenings, etc.).
-Customer's now aren't getting the speeds they paid for, Netflix buffers, etc...

-On the other side, Netflix has purchased bandwidth access from the carriers. Plenty enough to support demand to supply quick streaming to their customers.

With the end of NN, now the carriers can charge Netflix (or other media providers) what is equivalent to "fast lane" access that prioritizes their (Netflix) streaming traffic. The carriers are not building out any additional infrastructure in the neighborhoods or core networks, they are simply prioritizing traffic from Netflix over everything else. So how does that impact you as someone living in the neighborhood? First, all of your data traffic (email, internet surfing, streaming non-Netflix media) is now de-prioritized and second to anyone in your neighborhood that is streaming traffic. Even though you are paying for 10meg, you're still not getting it. Your Amazon Prime is slower and has to wait or get in back of everyone's Netflix traffic. And now that Netflix is paying for "fast lane" access, their customers are likely paying more for Netflix.

So in short, the carriers are now able to charge media providers more for their oversubscribed shitty networks that don't deliver what they've sold in the first place. What you and I pay, we don't get. What Netflix currently pays, they don't get. The carriers are collecting, and without NN can collect more, and choose who's traffic actually goes fast, and what traffic gets bogged down in their shitty infrastructure.

You can also factor in that carriers are now in the content (TV and movie) business. AT&T now makes TV, Comcast makes TV content. They now will prioritize their content which in effect slows down other content like Netflix, Amazon, etc.. unfair competition from a media perspective...

 

[wizards8507]

^ except you (the customer) don't actually pay for certain speeds. You pay for speeds "up to" certain speeds. I pay for Xfinity Blast, which is "up to" 200 Mbps. It's not a guarantee that I get it, and I never do.

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[phgreek]

The price increase is going to get to us eventually either way. It's just a question of whether your broadband bill goes up or your Netflix bill goes up. It's the same difference.

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yes and no...I see it as a better scenario for the consumer if Netflix has to pay infrastructure costs to support/expand their business model because I can choose not to watch/subscribe...I cannot reasonably choose to forgo the "Utility". What should really happen is an SLA that prevents Comcast from selling me data rates "up to", and force them to maintain a floor of the service I pay for.

 

[wizards8507]

yes and no...I see it as a better scenario for the consumer if Netflix has to pay infrastructure costs to support/expand their business model because I can choose not to watch/subscribe...I cannot reasonably choose to forgo the "Utility". What should really happen is an SLA that prevents Comcast from selling me data rates "up to", and force them to maintain a floor of the service I pay for.

The only way that happens is through competition. In the short term, we want ISPs to be immensely profitable, which will draw new entrants into the market.

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[Cackalacky]

The price increase is going to get to us eventually either way. It's just a question of whether your broadband bill goes up or your Netflix bill goes up. It's the same difference.

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No its not.

 

[Meatloaf]

The only way that happens is through competition. In the short term, we want ISPs to be immensely profitable, which will draw new entrants into the market.

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How is allowing companies that act as de-facto monopolies in many markets consolidate their power going to draw new entrants? It makes zero sense when the major ISPs can simply nickle and dime an ISP startup to use their lines or even outright throttle access to a competitor's website. Once again, the repeal of NN spits in the face of the concept of an open, free market.

 

[greyhammer90]

Honestly the concerns I have rotate more around free speech. For example, if one of wiz's alt-right waifus (like Milo for example) were to create a website, ISP's could limit bandwidth to that website to attempt to block his access to an audience. At this point, so much of the national debate on everything happens through the internet, it's the new public forum. Large sites like Twitter have already shown that they are capable and willing to remove users that don't match their politics. ISP's could very easily remove the ability for someone to gain an audience on the internet at all. As has been discussed on this board, the idea of what speech is acceptable and what is "hate speech" is progressing at a rapid rate. It's concerning that in 2022 Verizon, a subsidiary of Disney Corp., could very easily decide that "harmful depictions of HOT BUTTON IDENTITY POLITICS" have no place on their network.

Does this mean the government through the net neutrality regulations couldn't do the same thing? No, but if the government tries to do that they are limited by the Constitution, and would have to go before a conservative court to accomplish it.

 

[wizards8507]

How is allowing companies that act as de-facto monopolies in many markets consolidate their power going to draw new entrants? It makes zero sense when the major ISPs can simply nickle and dime an ISP startup to use their lines or even outright throttle access to a competitor's website. Once again, the repeal of NN spits in the face of the concept of an open, free market.

I'm not talking about ISP startups. I'm talking about established ISPs expanding their footprints. We have plenty of ISPs, they're just not distributed wide enough. If Dallas has inflated prices because Comcast is the only provider, it's only a matter of time before Verizon jumps in and undercuts them.

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[Meatloaf]

I'm not talking about ISP startups. I'm talking about established ISPs expanding their footprints. We have plenty of ISPs, they're just not distributed wide enough. If Dallas has inflated prices because Comcast is the only provider, it's only a matter of time before Verizon jumps in and undercuts them.

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The established ISPs got tax breaks in excess of 200 billion dolars that they said would be used for infrastructure upgrades and did nothing with it:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/2/6/184920/-

There's a long history broken infrastructure promises from telecom companies

The rewiring he's talking about here isn't DSL, or internal fiber-optic upgrades. What was promised was fiber-optic line direct to your house for your personal use, paid at rates similar to what you're paying now, if not cheaper.
Why then today, after reneging on a $200 billion dollar promise, do the telco's feel they now 'own' the weak infrastructure they've barely managed to provide us with? This report estimates the Bell's collectively spent about $1 billion dollar setting up fake industry groups and hiring lobbyists to push this forward. In the end, they pocketed nearly every penny, all while achieving deregulation in a majority of states, and being approved for merger after merger.

This is truly an outrage, the public has been duped, and while a pro-deregulation FCC and a communications-illterate (if not bought and paid for) congress is now about to face a new round of lobbying from AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to hand them the keys to the internet. Promises will be made, but its clear no one will be bothered with enforcing them. We need to make this a higher priority agenda item not only stop the current coup, but we all need to take a look at the bullshit they've already sold us and start collecting on promises made.

The article is from 2006, btw

 

[wizards8507]

The established ISPs got tax breaks in excess of 200 billion dolars that they said would be used for infrastructure upgrades and did nothing with it:

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2006/2/6/184920/-

There's a long history broken infrastructure promises from telecom companies



The article is from 2006, btw

Exactly. Government intervention failed then, and actually made the problem worse.

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[Meatloaf]

Exactly. Government intervention failed then, and actually made the problem worse.

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No it was rampant deregulation by the FCC and congresd like we're seeing now. The article says as much.

This is truly an outrage, the public has been duped, and while a pro-deregulation FCC and a communications-illterate (if not bought and paid for) congress is now about to face a new round of lobbying from AT&T, Verizon, and Comcast to hand them the keys to the internet. Promises will be made, but its clear no one will be bothered with enforcing them. We need to make this a higher priority agenda item not only stop the current coup, but we all need to take a look at the bullshit they've already sold us and start collecting on promises made.

 

[Cackalacky]

Exactly. Government intervention failed then, and actually made the problem worse.

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[Bubbles]

Nationalize netflix!