Terror Attacks in Paris

GoIrish41

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This is basically where I am at. Who knows what the actual percentages are but if we know that a non-negligible amount of people from Syria or _____part of the world support terrorist ideology then it is in our best interest to keep them all out of this country. I would even argue we are obligated to do so. As I've said before, I have no problem with setting up refugee camps and developing a process by which refugees can come to America under supervision and restriction. But we can't just open up our borders with welcoming arms.

My parents are immigrants, btw, so I'm no anti-immigrant or anything like that. I'm just anti-recklessness.

The immigrants are the people running away from terrorism, though. If they were hard liners, they'd be back in Syria breaking ancient monuments and cutting people's heads off.

To the bolded, I would ask if you think this should be permanent or until such time as people are cleared?
 

wizards8507

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For me... this statement can apply to any number of groups of people all over the world. Its no different from people who are already here in this country either born or otherwise.
Yes, but "[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." So whether they're shitty people or not is irrelevant. They're citizens.

Compare that to a non-citizen. We're under no obligation to grant citizenship to shitty people just because some other shitty people already have citizenship through a different channel.

The immigrants are the people running away from terrorism, though. If they were hard liners, they'd be back in Syria breaking ancient monuments and cutting people's heads off.
I know about 2 million Parisians who would beg to differ.
 

Domina Nostra

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Entering this country is a privilege. I don't disagree with that. And if the US can prove a person thinks these things... that's great. Not sure how they can do that though routinely and effictively.

Not sure I agree its equivalent to the pedophile case though. The US is not actively bombing or disrupting whole communities of pedophiles thereby creating more pedophiles... We are in fact doing that in many countries thereby creating more people who are anti-US under the guise of spreading democracy and nation building.

I think you nailed the issue. Who should have the burden of proof for deomnstrating that an immigrant is not sympathetic to extrmeist groups, the host nation or the immigrant?

On the one hand, you'd like to assume that a person who comes to our country must like our country. This has generally been the presumption. But its had its reasonable limits. Japanese during WWII... Russians during the Cold war... they were held to a different level of scrutiny. If a country had an Ebola outbreak, it seems like it would be reasonable to assume that the person was infected unless there was some system to prove otherwise.

The problem is no one is convinced that Europe or the US have any effective way of determining who is who, and so people are rightly hesitant to continue to let people in from nations that have terrorists armies, like in Syria. You might be willing to take this risk, but lots of people aren't. That doesn't mean they presume everone who is rejected is a terrorist.

As far as the roots of terrorism, that is neither here nor there. I doubt Pres. Obama or anyone else would get far with the American people claiming, "its our fault that Muslim extrmeists exist, so we have to have low standards about who we take in."

And the reason that people aren't worried about importing Bhuddist terorrists is pretty darn obvious: Bhuddists aren't trying to establish a world caliphate by force. Bhudda didn't tach anything like that.

Bhuddist in most countries are almost an icon of peacable behavior. The article you linked to ironically shows that even the Bhuddists have been riled up--to incredible excess--mostly by the Muslims. They scare them because of Muslim beliefs. At most, it shows that some Bhuddists countries like (every?) Muslim countries, are intolerant and suspicious of minorities religious groups. That is an argument for not traveling there. But I haven't heard of those countries exporting that ideaology. Islam, like Communism, is a universal idealogy that exports. Not every idealogy works this way. For example, the idea of the German's as a master race was not likley to fly in England or Russia.
 
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gkIrish

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The immigrants are the people running away from terrorism, though. If they were hard liners, they'd be back in Syria breaking ancient monuments and cutting people's heads off.

To the bolded, I would ask if you think this should be permanent or until such time as people are cleared?

I am not opposed to refugees being permitted to leave the camps after a certain period of time and after passing rigorous background checks and other requirements. And then I would implement some sort of probation similar to what criminals who get out early on parole experience. I'm not saying these people are criminals but I would like to keep tabs on them for a certain period of time.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Profiling likely terrorists isn't so difficult that Muslims need to be barred from seeking asylum in the US categorically. The vast majority of terrorists are Sunni Arab males who profess Salafism. Women, children and the elderly pose very low risks. Same with Shi'ites.

Since we created this refugee crisis by toppling Saddam and Qaddafi and destabilizing Assad, it would be profoundly immoral to wash our hands of the people fleeing ISIS.
 
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Cackalacky

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It doesn't matter. Let's go all the way down the slippery slope. If there's a 5% chance that someone is a terrorist or child molester or rapist, that's too high of a percentage.

I disagree with this. We tolerate many things as a society and there is no way to stamp out the biological components of pedophiles and rapists. A certain proportion of the population will always exhibit pedophilic and rapist behaviors base purely on biology adn personal experiences. Terrorism is a cultural psychology issue that lacks any biological components and is not like pedophiles or rapists.

Pedophiles and rapists should be identified where and if possible to prevent things from happening sure, and they should also have access to help. They should also be prosecuted to the full extent of the law should they choose to commit a crime but you will never eradicate pedophiles and you can't kick them out of the country for being pedophiles.

Again, I am not saying we must allow them in... I am saying we do not have the capability of distinguishing people who hold these terrorist thoughts versus those who don't and no way of knowing that those who do will act on them.
 
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Cackalacky

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Yes, but "[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." So whether they're shitty people or not is irrelevant. They're citizens.

Compare that to a non-citizen. We're under no obligation to grant citizenship to shitty people just because some other shitty people already have citizenship through a different channel.
How about people who became shitty once they lived in the US after a while? Whether a person is shitty pre or post citizenship is irrelevant. What is relevant is do we let them in? What is the criteria? Is there a "Are you a Shitty Person" screening form?
 

GoIrish41

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I am not opposed to refugees being permitted to leave the camps after a certain period of time and after passing rigorous background checks and other requirements.

Man, you almost had me and then ...

And then I would implement some sort of probation similar to what criminals who get out early on parole experience. I'm not saying these people are criminals but I would like to keep tabs on them for a certain period of time.

They are not criminals.
 
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kmoose

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Man, you almost had me and then ...



They are not criminals.

I wasn't a criminal when I reported to Boot Camp, but you sure as hell wouldn't have known it from the way I was treated. Call it the price of admission.... No one is forced to go through it. Don't like it? Go to France or Germany.
 
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Cackalacky

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And the reason that people aren't worried about importing Bhuddist terorrists is pretty darn obvious: Bhuddists aren't trying to establish a world caliphate by force. Bhudda didn't tach anything like that.

Bhuddist in most countries are almost an icon of peacable behavior. The article you linked to ironically shows that even the Bhuddists have been riled up--to incredible excess--mostly by the Muslims. They scare them because of Muslim beliefs. At most, it shows that some Bhuddists countries like (every?) Muslim countries, are intolerant and suspicious of minorities religious groups. That is an argument for not traveling there. But I haven't heard of those countries exporting that ideaology. Islam, like Communism, is a universal idealogy that exports. Not every idealogy works this way. For example, the idea of the German's as a master race was not likley to fly in England or Russia.
Of course Bhudda did not teach anything like that but yet we still have Bhuddists attacking Muslims.

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims? - BBC News

Bhuddists have resorted to these tactics because in the Muslim dominated countries like Myanmar they have less rights and privileges than the majority muslims. For example, Bhuddists are not recognized by the Myanmar government. They therefore have no right to vote. They have therefore taken up violence which is antithetical to their teachings, but they still manage to justify their actions using their teachings.

But however any religion starts out, sooner or later it enters into a Faustian pact with state power. Buddhist monks looked to kings, the ultimate wielders of violence, for the support, patronage and order that only they could provide. Kings looked to monks to provide the popular legitimacy that only such a high moral vision can confer.
The result can seem ironic. If you have a strong sense of the overriding moral superiority of your worldview, then the need to protect and advance it can seem the most important duty of all.

Myanmar's Buddhist Terrorism Problem | Al Jazeera America
 
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GoIrish41

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I wasn't a criminal when I reported to Boot Camp, but you sure as hell wouldn't have known it from the way I was treated. Call it the price of admission.... No one is forced to go through it. Don't like it? Go to France or Germany.

:eek:hwhateve
 

T Town Tommy

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So... we let the refugees in. Then we keep tabs on them once they clear the camps after an extended stay. I can see that working just about as well as we kept tabs on those who overstayed their visas. Someone remind me again how many of the 9/11 attackers were here on expired visas. And while some argue that these refugees are fleeing the violence and pose no threat... I say to you, pitch a tent in your back yard and let them stay at your house then. If they commit violent acts against our country, not only will we lock them up but we will lock you up as well.

Furthermore, I get so tired of hearing reports come out after major terror attacks with this country or that country stating that the responsible individuals were already on terror watch groups, had traveled to remote training camps, and came back to the country. If they know this... then why in the hell were the individuals allowed to walk around freely? If we don't want to toughen our laws in this area so we can deport any individuals who fall under these categories, then I for one do not want them in our country.
 

tussin

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Does the France Facebook profile pic trend grate on anyone else?
 

Bishop2b5

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I agree whole heartedly and I have said that repeatedly so far.

Can one prove that they harbor those thoughts though....

I don't think you can prove certain individuals harbor certain thoughts or beliefs. It's enough to know that a significant percentage of the members of a group harbor those beliefs to simply stop admitting any people from that group in unless you can be reasonably sure those individuals DON'T harbor those beliefs. In other words, I wouldn't allow everyone from a predominantly Muslim country into the US just because I couldn't prove some of them were terrorists. I wouldn't let any of them in unless I could be quite certain those particular individuals WEREN'T terrorists or supported those who were.

There is no fundamental right to come to this country. Being allowed to do so is a privilege and bringing elements of your culture with you is fine and enriches ours, but it also requires a willingness to become part of our nation's people, assimilate into our society, and adapt to our way of life and our values (if you don't want to become an American, then why come here?). Allowing vast numbers of people into our country who despise us, hate our values & culture, refuse to contribute to our nation, refuse to assimilate into our society, and openly threaten our own citizens and call for the downfall of our country is lunacy.
 

gkIrish

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Man, you almost had me and then ...



They are not criminals.

I didn't say they were. I even said I didn't think so. I'm just describing what kind of supervision I would want. Basically I would require that they stay within certain geographic parameters for a certain period of time and that they report to a "parole officer" regularly to keep tabs.

These requirements would not be permanent.
 

GoIrish41

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I don't know why you are rolling your eyes? What's wrong with taking our time to try to identify any terrorists that might be hiding in amongst refugees?

Because you are comparing beginning your job ...one you entered into voluntarily knowing what to expect to people fleeing for their lives to a safe haven. Not even compatible.
 
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kmoose

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Because you are comatose g beginning your job ...one you entered into voluntarily knowing what to expect to people fleeing for their lives to a safe haven. Not even compatible.

No. What I was comparing is two situations where people might be subjected to great scrutiny, and even treated similar to the way criminals are treated, yet not actually be criminals. Those people are fleeing a war zone, that's correct. But no one is suggesting that they can't leave the war zone until these checks are done. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the suggestion was that they only be subjected to the scrutiny once they were OUT of danger. So stop trying to act like these checks would endanger their lives.
 

GoIrish41

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No. What I was comparing is two situations where people might be subjected to great scrutiny, and even treated similar to the way criminals are treated, yet not actually be criminals. Those people are fleeing a war zone, that's correct. But no one is suggesting that they can't leave the war zone until these checks are done. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the suggestion was that they only be subjected to the scrutiny once they were OUT of danger. So stop trying to act like these checks would endanger their lives.

Who said it would endanger their lives? I just am opposed to treating people like criminals on a hunch. That really is not how America works.
 
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Cackalacky

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I don't think you can prove certain individuals harbor certain thoughts or beliefs. It's enough to know that a significant percentage of the members of a group harbor those beliefs to simply stop admitting any people from that group in unless you can be reasonably sure those individuals DON'T harbor those beliefs. In other words, I wouldn't allow everyone from a predominantly Muslim country into the US just because I couldn't prove some of them were terrorists. I wouldn't let any of them in unless I could be quite certain those particular individuals WEREN'T terrorists or supported those who were.

There is no fundamental right to come to this country. Being allowed to do so is a privilege and bringing elements of your culture with you is fine and enriches ours, but it also requires a willingness to become part of our nation's people, assimilate into our society, and adapt to our way of life and our values (if you don't want to become an American, then why come here?). Allowing vast numbers of people into our country who despise us, hate our values & culture, refuse to contribute to our nation, refuse to assimilate into our society, and openly threaten our own citizens and call for the downfall of our country is lunacy.

Some of this I agree with and some I don't see as necessarily or mutually exclusive so...the question becomes do we turn them away or allow them in and what moral justification do we have for doing either.
 

gkIrish

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Who said it would endanger their lives? I just am opposed to treating people like criminals on a hunch. That really is not how America works.

It's not a hunch. It's based on the absolute fact that terrorists have hid themselves among peaceful refugees. It's unfortunate that good people must be treated with suspicion, but I'm not willing to risk American lives just so that we don't stereotype people.
 
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Domina Nostra

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Of course Bhudda did not teach anything like that but yet we still have Bhuddists attacking Muslims.

Why are Buddhist monks attacking Muslims? - BBC News

Bhuddists have resorted to these tactics because in the Muslim dominated countries like Myanmar and Sri Lanka they have less rights and privileges than the majority muslims. For example, Bhuddists are not recognized by the Myanmar government. They therefore have no right to vote. They have therefore taken up violence which is antithetical to their teachings, but they still manage to justify their actions using their teachings.

But isn't that the whole problem for Islam? Whereas members of every religion have done awful things (just like their Atheist counterparts), its hard to argue that Islam does not actually teach awful things because of the life of their founder. It's pretty hard to argue that X = evil, if the founder did X repeatedly and is held up as an example to be emulated. The person who sides with the founder has a VERY internally convincing argument.

Anyone can twist any relgion, ideaology, or political movement, but its hard to argue, for example, that America is fundamentally a pacifist nation when the founding fathers fought a war and the first President was its general.

Some of this I agree with and some I don't see as necessarily or mutually exclusive so...the question becomes do we turn them away or allow them in and what moral justification do we have for doing either.

Exactly right. For doing either.
 
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GoIrish41

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It's not a hunch. It's based on the absolute fact that terrorists have hid themselves among peaceful refugees. It's unfortunate that good people must be treated with suspicion, but I'm not willing to risk American lives just so that we don't stereotype people.

I agreed with you on the camps and thorough background checks ... The parole thing is just too much for me.
 
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kmoose

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Who said it would endanger their lives? I just am opposed to treating people like criminals on a hunch. That really is not how America works.

No one is treating them like criminals. That's the whole point. They wouldn't be treated like criminals any more than a boot camp recruit is treated like a criminal. Just because they go through background checks and have to be observed for a time period, much like a criminal who was just released, that doesn't mean that they are being treated like criminals.
 

GoIrish41

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No one is treating them like criminals. That's the whole point. They wouldn't be treated like criminals any more than a boot camp recruit is treated like a criminal. Just because they go through background checks and have to be observed for a time period, much like a criminal who was just released, that doesn't mean that they are being treated like criminals.

That distinction is about as clear as mud.
 

kmoose

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That distinction is about as clear as mud.

When the ND football team goes on the road, they are required to stick to a scheduled calendar of events. They may, or may not, get free time. They have to eat when and where the schedule calls out; they have to wear a specific type of clothing; they have to be in bed at a specific time, and their presence is spot checked at that time....... much like prisoners in jail. So I guess the University treats it's football players like prisoners?
 

GoIrish41

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When the ND football team goes on the road, they are required to stick to a scheduled calendar of events. They may, or may not, get free time. They have to eat when and where the schedule calls out; they have to wear a specific type of clothing; they have to be in bed at a specific time, and their presence is spot checked at that time....... much like prisoners in jail. So I guess the University treats it's football players like prisoners?

If you keep reaching like that you are going to pull a muscle.
 
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