Terror Attacks in Paris

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
Anyone watch Kerry speak just now? Sounds like he said Syrian Free Army and Assad are gonna come to a ceasefire on the condition that there are free elections when this is all over.

I was just half listening though cuz CFB so that may not entirely be correct.

Been in the works for a little while now. All focus going to be on taking out ISIL/ISIS. Russia wants to remain a military presence in Syria. Also, discussions about moving around borders.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
It is wise to admit that there is good and bad on both sides and to learn from our own failings, but the goal is to get to the truth, not an emotionally satisfying consensus. If we overplay our ancestor's failings and downplay the relative failings of others, we are no closer to reality.

I would argue that the term "religion" in this context is so broad as to become meaningless. We could say "government" can be "a calling for ill and violent behavior" too. That statement is true. But it does not mean that there is any sane reason in the world to equate one's involvement in the Decatur City Council with a local Afghani warlord's council, or invovlemnt in Iceland's defense department with Zimbabwe's.

Christinaity and Islam are just not very similar, and the lives of their founders are not very simlar. One was a celibate itirnerate preacher who willingly let his enemy's put him to death to save them from their own sin, the other conquered and made himself a great man with many wives who wanted to establish a new world order. Neither are Hinduism and Judaism very similar. Most religions, in fact, have very different moral and spiritual teaching. Insofar as there are basica similarities between all human beings, and that those human beings tend towards certain faults, and that most followers of religions are a little half-hearted, then, yes, there are tons of similarities between your average Muslim, Jew, Christian, and Hindu.

But despite the millions, and millions of nice, peaceful Muslims in the world, their religion still calls for violence and world conquest against the non-converted (although it is admittedly self-contradictory on many points). For that reason, its leaders point to the exmaple of their founder, and many of his words, and the earliest teachings of the religion, to provide a very solid foundation for waging holy war. That is, and will remain an issue. Its just like no matter how nice and pacifist some American is, he's going to have to live with the reality that his goverenemnt is hostile to, and/or bombing, certain other nations. It's just a fact. Christianity, like Bhuddism for example, does not call for world domination.

I bet we'd agree on most things. I am just pushing the point right now that we may have to seriously reconsider how well some of our current cultural assumptions are really holding up. First and foremost, I think we have mistaken the success of a fairly homogenous, like-minded society with the success of some of the ideals its espouses (pluraility, diversity). I no longer think that a consitutional system can, by itslef, create a safe, harmonious, diverse society. I think that the majoroty and major minority groups in that country have to be committed to the constitutional order FIRST, and then a constitutional order becomes the best way to govern that situation. So we have to make some serious decisions about allowing groups into our country who are not comitted to its worldview. If you don't believe in a free, open, diverse society, you can't come here. I think Muslims are certainly capable of this, but I don't think we should just treat it as a given that all Muslims from all parts of the world automatically are.

We may not agree on history, but we are almost in perfect harmony about the present, and future. Your thoughts above on the decisions needed echo my post to Pham last night. Sad that we have to look at these things as truths, but they are indeed truth.

BTW I'm not saying Christianity and Islam are alike. I'm saying men following both religions have done terrible things in the name of their religion.

Side note, just dropped of my cleaning. Muslim run establishment. Been going there since around 2000. Great guy, great family man. Friendly, kind, personable. He, as he always does, had the news on (accept when a soccer game is on). He didn't greet me with the typical warm friendly "Hello John, Travel this week? Did you see the score of the XXX soccer game?". Today he was sad, angry, and if my read on him was correct, slightly fearful. He asked me if I could believe the sad state of the world right now. He has family in western Europe and shared his concerns about their well being. We talked for about 10 minutes on the general situation. In all that conversation there were several damnations about his fellow Muslims. He personally does not see them as people of his religion. He sees them as violent, power hungry, terrorist. It saddens me that extremist not only kill the innocent and create global fear. They also make it tough on hard working families that embrace the US way of life, but also happen to be Muslim immigrants.
 

NDgradstudent

Banned
Messages
2,414
Reaction score
165
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Greece?src=hash">#Greece</a> PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via <a href="https://twitter.com/AntennaNews">@AntennaNews</a></p>— Yannis Koutsomitis (@YanniKouts) <a href="https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289">November 14, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So at least one of the terrorists was a "refugee" who came to Europe in this latest wave.

European leaders, even some of the 'conservative' ones like Angela Merkel, are so unbelievably stupid and cowardly. Cheap moralizing on immigration, with no regard for consequences, leads to things like this. You can't fix these people with laws banning them from wearing clothes. You can only keep them from coming in the first place.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr"><a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/Greece?src=hash">#Greece</a> PublicOrderMin Toskas confirms Paris attacker w Syrian passport was registered as refugee on Leros island in Oct. /via <a href="https://twitter.com/AntennaNews">@AntennaNews</a></p>— Yannis Koutsomitis (@YanniKouts) <a href="https://twitter.com/YanniKouts/status/665555110467084289">November 14, 2015</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

So at least one of the terrorists was a "refugee" who came to Europe in this latest wave.

European leaders, even some of the 'conservative' ones like Angela Merkel, are so unbelievably stupid and cowardly. Cheap moralizing on immigration, with no regard for consequences, leads to things like this. You can't fix these people with laws banning them from wearing clothes. You can only keep them from coming in the first place.
I think you are the coward in this situation. The refugees are running away from these people.
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
I think you are the coward in this situation. The refugees are running away from these people.

I have to step in.

There have been actual, confirmed intelligence reports since the refugee crisis began that was stating ISIS/ISIL and the like had mixed in with actual refugees trying to escape. That's nothing new to us.

All these countries wanted to do was to properly vet people to prevent terrorists mixing in to be given entry but the public pressure put on by people who don't have a clue forced the needle.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I have to step in.

There have been confirmed intelligence reports since it began that was stating ISIS/ISIL and the like had mixed in with actual refugees trying to escape. That's nothing new to us.

All these countries wanted to do was to properly vet people to prevent terrorists mixing in to be given entry but the public pressure put on by people who don't have a clue forced the needle.

And those same clueless people will likely condemn that actions taken/required to respond to the terrorist.
 

NDgradstudent

Banned
Messages
2,414
Reaction score
165
If public policy cannot be based on "ethnic schamltz" (very choice turn of words, thanks), then what should it matter if I am from a Muslim country? Are you from a Muslim county? And if so does that make what you have to say more or less valid than what I have to say?

And it absolutely isn't a matter of deserting. No matter how bad, backwards or asinine your policies, there is no measure of deserting and no logic that says that these tragedies should or will happen to you.

Because the statement 'many Muslims commit terrorist attacks against Western countries' is not schmaltz. It is true. The assumption that because my family immigrated here and have been successful non-terrorists therefore all immigrants must be good and we should let them all in is illogical schmaltz. But this way of thinking dictates discourse about immigration in our country and in Europe. The consequences are destructive.

No innocent person 'deserves' to be killed. I haven't claimed that any such person does. But political leaders need to be held accountable for stupid decisions that they make, and we need to frankly discuss the considerable role that immigration has played in all of this.

I think you are the coward in this situation. The refugees are running away from these people.

This is non-responsive: one of the 'refugees' was "these people"!
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
Anyone else think Turkey is about to experience international pressure like they've never seen before?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
I think you are the coward in this situation. The refugees are running away from these people.

Yes, and accepting them wholesale without thoughtful consideration of the consequence is idiotic. Not everyone that disagrees with you is a coward. While he's not as thoughtful in his point making, the point is that there is a direct tie between the open arms policy and the attack.
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
Anyone else think Turkey is about to experience international pressure like they've never seen before?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Turkey has already agreed to follow Russia/Syrian regime insofar as the re-designation of country borders in the ME. Even Bibi Netanyahu was in agreement as long as the Syrian regime controls the area of Syria that borders Israel.
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
This is non-responsive: one of the 'refugees' was "these people"!

How many?

Terrorist attacks have been occurring in Europe before the refugee crisis, this isn't anything new. To pin this attack on the refugees is weak.

You do realize that you play into ISIS's gameplan when you ostracize moderate Muslims? Or who was the clown moaning about Obama not saying "Islamic extremists," that'd play into their hand too. ISIS wants a war, that helps their cause.

I'm with everyone saying the Arabs, Turks, etc need to show up anytime now. Maybe Qatar doesn't deserve the World Cup if people there are going to support ISIS.

Turkey is the biggest problem of all. A once-secular country and example to the world of a moderate Islamic country, but Ergodan or however you spell it is a bona-fide fuckhead. But how do you deal with a NATO member who knows it's crucially important and knows it can support ISIS nonchalantly without fear of retribution from the West?
 
B

Buster Bluth

Guest
I have to step in.

There have been actual, confirmed intelligence reports since the refugee crisis began that was stating ISIS/ISIL and the like had mixed in with actual refugees trying to escape. That's nothing new to us.

All these countries wanted to do was to properly vet people to prevent terrorists mixing in to be given entry but the public pressure put on by people who don't have a clue forced the needle.
I have no problem with that thinking whatsoever.
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Suicide bomber attempting to gain entry to France-Germany match is a chilling development for the sports business. <a href="https://t.co/zWMdwqdwcq">https://t.co/zWMdwqdwcq</a></p>— Sam Walker (@SamWalkers) <a href="https://twitter.com/SamWalkers/status/665582331365826561">November 14, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
 

Wild Bill

Well-known member
Messages
5,518
Reaction score
3,262
How many?

Terrorist attacks have been occurring in Europe before the refugee crisis, this isn't anything new. To pin this attack on the refugees is weak.

You do realize that you play into ISIS's gameplan when you ostracize moderate Muslims? Or who was the clown moaning about Obama not saying "Islamic extremists," that'd play into their hand too. ISIS wants a war, that helps their cause.

I'm with everyone saying the Arabs, Turks, etc need to show up anytime now. Maybe Qatar doesn't deserve the World Cup if people there are going to support ISIS.

Turkey is the biggest problem of all. A once-secular country and example to the world of a moderate Islamic country, but Ergodan or however you spell it is a bona-fide fuckhead. But how do you deal with a NATO member who knows it's crucially important and knows it can support ISIS nonchalantly without fear of retribution from the West?

That's really the issue, it only takes a few to cause serious damage.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
How many?

Terrorist attacks have been occurring in Europe before the refugee crisis, this isn't anything new. To pin this attack on the refugees is weak.

I don't think anyone is actually blaming the refugees. The terrorists that hid amongst the refugees are not refugees. But there is a valid point to be made, that allowing anyone who claims to be a refugee to take up residence in your country is inviting this kind of infiltration to happen. I don't think anyone wants the true refugees to be stuck in a dangerous place. I think they just want countries to do at least SOMETHING to vet the refugees in order to try to identify terrorists hidden among them.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
How many?

Terrorist attacks have been occurring in Europe before the refugee crisis, this isn't anything new. To pin this attack on the refugees is weak.

You do realize that you play into ISIS's gameplan when you ostracize moderate Muslims? Or who was the clown moaning about Obama not saying "Islamic extremists," that'd play into their hand too. ISIS wants a war, that helps their cause.

I'm with everyone saying the Arabs, Turks, etc need to show up anytime now. Maybe Qatar doesn't deserve the World Cup if people there are going to support ISIS.

Turkey is the biggest problem of all. A once-secular country and example to the world of a moderate Islamic country, but Ergodan or however you spell it is a bona-fide fuckhead. But how do you deal with a NATO member who knows it's crucially important and knows it can support ISIS nonchalantly without fear of retribution from the West?

I don't see him as pinning the attacks on refugees. He is calling out the wholesale open arms policy. Pinning it on true refugees is illogical.

Our policy has failed. It is time for the Arab Nations and other Muslim states to care for this themselves. The rest of the world needs to put them on notice. Support, harbor, allow extremist to exist in your country, or failure to root them out means instant and complete economic warfare, and if needed, bombing back to the stone age without economic support for the rebuild. Extreme, yes. But a sad truth when dealing with extremist and countries to fail to act.
 

irishff1014

Well-known member
Messages
26,509
Reaction score
9,284
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Suicide bomber attempting to gain entry to France-Germany match is a chilling development for the sports business. <a href="https://t.co/zWMdwqdwcq">https://t.co/zWMdwqdwcq</a></p>— Sam Walker (@SamWalkers) <a href="https://twitter.com/SamWalkers/status/665582331365826561">November 14, 2015</a></blockquote> <script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

He wasn't arrested or if police aren't there they weren't called?
 

calvegas04

Well-known member
Messages
11,861
Reaction score
8,440
Surprised Germany hasn't had anything happen as they are taking on the most out of Europe in terms of refugees. If anyone watched Homeland on showtime they are all over this subject
 

gkIrish

Greek God
Messages
13,184
Reaction score
1,004
I think refugees should be welcomed, but in refugee camps. They can't just be let out into the general public without serious background checks and significant supervision.
 

Irish YJ

Southsida
Messages
25,888
Reaction score
1,444
Surprised Germany hasn't had anything happen as they are taking on the most out of Europe in terms of refugees. If anyone watched Homeland on showtime they are all over this subject

They don't want to shit where they eat. Perfect jumping point for them.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
He detonated the vest after the discovery and security started to back up. No time to call. Also, you see a bomb, don't use radios.

Do you know anything about normal French security? If the French President were not in the stadium, do you think the "normal" screening would have caught this?
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
Do you know anything about normal French security? If the French President were not in the stadium, do you think the "normal" screening would have caught this?

No clue about French security procedure. Seems that he was just trying to sneak it in or at the very least, didn't know about proper security procedures.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
No clue about French security procedure. Seems that he was just trying to sneak it in or at the very least, didn't know about proper security procedures.

I was wondering if they did NOT know that the French President would be there, and were caught off guard by what I would assume were heightened security measures.
 

Grahambo

Varsity Club Member
Messages
4,259
Reaction score
2,606
I was wondering if they did NOT know that the French President would be there, and were caught off guard by what I would assume were heightened security measures.

Nothing seemed to suggest they were after President Hollande. Instead, the article suggests they wanted to cause a deadly stampede inside the stadium.
 

JughedJones

Banned
Messages
3,147
Reaction score
359
Governments have responsibilities to their own nations first and foremost. Immigration policy should be about what's best for the citizen, not the immigrant.

<iframe width="854" height="480" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/X9uRCKtaOCU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I'm not a Christian, nor do I believe in a God in any form... It's strange that the most 'godly' among us feel this way.

Why would a good group of people 'AKA a society' turn away poor people that need a better life?

If we have it, why would we tell others not to share in it?

Is it yer jerb? They take it?
 
Last edited:

wizards8507

Well-known member
Messages
20,660
Reaction score
2,661
I'm not a Christian, nor do I believe in a God in any form... It's strange that the most 'godly' among us feel this way.

Why would a good group of people 'AKA a society' turn away poor people that need a better life?

If we have it, why would we tell others not to share in it?

Is it yer jerb? They take it?
Jobs, wages, drugs, poverty, crime, and mass murder. Yeah, I'd say those are good reasons to have a restrictive immigration policy. Otherwise America (or France) becomes the same dump as the shithole these people are fleeing. It's a wonderful rainbow-and-unicorn ideal to admit every poor person in the world into a developed nation, but at some point the infrastructure just can't sustain it.
 
Top