Superconferences & Realignment

[Whiskeyjack]

We can agree to disagree. Four conference champs would be a disaster because in the current set up, you can not 100% indentify a true conference winner, especially if that winner comes from the weaker division of said conference and pulls an upset in it's championship game (which has happened).

There's not much room for disputing conference champions. You get to the championship game based 100% on W-L record, and then you win or lose that game based on how you play. One could argue that the #2 team in a stronger division is better than the #1 in a weaker division, but the #2 team still had a shot and missed; otherwise, they'd be #1. There's no possibility for conference teams to get completely frozen out regardless of W-L record (like Boise State and TCU in recent years).

I will agree with you on a fair and objective ranking system but human polls can't be the 100% deciding factor on who gets in.

I'd prefer that human polls were a 0% factor in who gets in. There's no reason why a completely objective computer ranking based solely on W-L record and SoS can't be devised. Remove the stupid humans from the process, and I'm on board.

 

[phork]

This is how I picture you being the commish...

You think I am oppressive? Interesting. Glad you fear me.

 

[Irishnuke]

You think I am oppressive? Interesting. Glad you fear me.

Probably closer to this

 

[rock_knutne]

There's not much room for disputing conference champions. You get to the championship game based 100% on W-L record, and then you win or lose that game based on how you play. One could argue that the #2 team in a stronger division is better than the #1 in a weaker division, but the #2 team still had a shot and missed; otherwise, they'd be #1. There's no possibility for conference teams to get completely frozen out regardless of W-L record (like Boise State and TCU in recent years).



I'd prefer that human polls were a 0% factor in who gets in. There's no reason why a completely objective computer ranking based solely on W-L record and SoS can't be devised. Remove the stupid humans from the process, and I'm on board.

My point is not only the conference championship game but, the fact that they are not playing the entire conference. I can go back to a couple of Big10 titles O$U won were they didn't play a very good Wisky or MSU. Regardless of the "you had your shot and lost" philosophy, no conference champion can be a true champion if they haven't played the best teams in said conference, and this happens quite a bit with thes ridiculous 12 and 14 team conferences. The conference title game was created for one thing only, money, sometimes it doesn't identify the truely best team in the conference.

 

[phork]

My point is not only the conference championship game but, the fact that they are not playing the entire conference. I can go back to a couple of Big10 titles O$U won were they didn't play a very good Wisky or MSU. Regardless of the "you had your shot and lost" philosophy, no conference champion can be a true champion if they haven't played the best teams in said conference, and this happens quite a bit with thes ridiculous 12 and 14 team conferences. The conference title game was created for one thing only, money, sometimes it doesn't identify the truely best team in the conference.

I just don't understand your logic here. While I am sure it would work out in one year where MSU plays NW, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Someone else, they will always play UM. Frankly in that division it is setup for the winner of the MSU/UM game to head to the BIG championship game.

So taking UM/MSU (and I would be shocked if anyone else won that conference for the forseeable future) vs either Wisky, OSU with Nebraska and PSU as close shadows. Thats about as good as the BIG gets.

Now the crappy thing is teams like Oklahoma getting bombed in the BigXII championship game and still playing for all the marbles... That wasn't a fluke or luck. And frankly you don't know who the better team is.
Look at MSU, who we asshammered last year, yet they went on to the BIG championship game and beat Georgia (The SEC runner up), who gave LSU a hard time.

Had Alabama done its business by beating LSU the first time, my money would have been on OkSt in the championship game.

Its all subjective. But I wouldn't lose sleep over a team that has won the Pac12, SEC, Big12 or the BIG facing off in a NC game or playoff, because anyone one of THOSE teams could certainly pull the upset.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My point is not only the conference championship game but, the fact that they are not playing the entire conference. I can go back to a couple of Big10 titles O$U won were they didn't play a very good Wisky or MSU.

That was a problem before divisions and conference championship games came into play. Now, for OSU to win the B1G without playing a very good MSU team, that MSU team must have either lost to Michigan, Nebraska, Iowa, etc.

Regardless of the "you had your shot and lost" philosophy, no conference champion can be a true champion if they haven't played the best teams in said conference, and this happens quite a bit with thes ridiculous 12 and 14 team conferences.

Why is this a prerequisite to being dubbed a true conference champion? Taking your earlier example, OSU gets to the championship game against Michigan without playing a very good MSU team. That doesn't happen due to a scheduling accident anymore. It only happens if MSU loses to Michigan, Nebraska, Iowa, etc. In other words, MSU's conference fortunes were in its own hands the entire time, so I don't see the inherent lack of fairness in this system.

The conference title game was created for one thing only, money, sometimes it doesn't identify the truely best team in the conference.

Football is a brutal sport. It's simply not possible for every good team to play every other good team. Assuming the conferences are split into divisions of roughly equal quality, championship games are good way of addressing this problem. It assures that every team's conference fortunes remain firmly within their own hands, while also giving them the flexibility to preserve cross-divisional or OOC rivalries.

 

[rock_knutne]

That was a problem before divisions and conference championship games came into play. Now, for OSU to win the B1G without playing a very good MSU team, that MSU team must have either lost to Michigan, Nebraska, Iowa, etc.

No, it's still a problem because you're not playing every team in the conference. The MSU scenario I spoke of happened when the Big10 had 11 teams and O$U didn't play MSU in one season and Wisky in another when they won the conference, in both cases MSU and Wisky were one loss teams.

Why is this a prerequisite to being dubbed a true conference champion? Taking your earlier example, OSU gets to the championship game against Michigan without playing a very good MSU team. That doesn't happen due to a scheduling accident anymore. It only happens if MSU loses to Michigan, Nebraska, Iowa, etc. In other words, MSU's conference fortunes were in its own hands the entire time, so I don't see the inherent lack of fairness in this system.

Regardless, you can have a scenario that a one loss team from one division gets left out and a piece of crap from another division gets a shot at the conference title. IMO, it's not fair to the playoff system if the piece of crap get's in to the playoff by winning it's conference title game (which has happened before).

Football is a brutal sport. It's simply not possible for every good team to play every other good team. Assuming the conferences are split into divisions of roughly equal quality, championship games are good way of addressing this problem. It assures that every team's conference fortunes remain firmly within their own hands, while also giving them the flexibility to preserve cross-divisional or OOC rivalries.

No, football, especially CFB, has turned in to a greedy sport. The super conference model and conference championship games are ruining the sport.

 

[rock_knutne]

I just don't understand your logic here. While I am sure it would work out in one year where MSU plays NW, Indiana, Minnesota, Purdue, Illinois, Iowa, Someone else, they will always play UM. Frankly in that division it is setup for the winner of the MSU/UM game to head to the BIG championship game.

So taking UM/MSU (and I would be shocked if anyone else won that conference for the forseeable future) vs either Wisky, OSU with Nebraska and PSU as close shadows. Thats about as good as the BIG gets.

Now the crappy thing is teams like Oklahoma getting bombed in the BigXII championship game and still playing for all the marbles... That wasn't a fluke or luck. And frankly you don't know who the better team is.
Look at MSU, who we asshammered last year, yet they went on to the BIG championship game and beat Georgia (The SEC runner up), who gave LSU a hard time.

Had Alabama done its business by beating LSU the first time, my money would have been on OkSt in the championship game.

Its all subjective. But I wouldn't lose sleep over a team that has won the Pac12, SEC, Big12 or the BIG facing off in a NC game or playoff, because anyone one of THOSE teams could certainly pull the upset.

See my response to Whiskeyjack...........

 

[Whiskeyjack]

No, it's still a problem because you're not playing every team in the conference. The MSU scenario I spoke of happened whn the Big10 had 11 teams and O$U didn't play MSU i one season ans Wisky in another when they won the conference, in both cases MSU and Wisky were one loss teams.

I'm not sure why you think that past example is relevant to the new B1G structure. OSU will play Wiscy every year now, and OSU can only avoid MSU if MSU somehow fails to win its weak division (probably by losing to Michigan). How is that unfair?

Regardless, you can have a scenario that a one loss team from one division gets left out and a piece of crap from another division gets a shot at the conference title. IMO, it's not fair to the playoff system if the piece of crap get's in to the playoff.

How does a POS team get into a championship game and a 1-loss team get left out? Unless of course the POS team beat the 1-loss team, and ended up with a better divisional record. In which case they're probably not a "POS" team...

No, football, especially CFB has turned in to a greedy sport. The super conference model and conference championship games are ruining the sport.

That's a little melodramatic. The gentrification of CFB began many years ago; these structural changes to the sport are simply an overdue confirmation of that status quo.

CFB is the second most popular sport in America. You can't start throwing billions of dollars at an industry and expect it to remain unchanged.

 

[rock_knutne]

I'm not sure why you think that past example is relevant to the new B1G structure. OSU will play Wiscy every year now, and OSU can only avoid MSU if MSU somehow fails to win its weak division (probably by losing to Michigan). How is that unfair?



How does a POS team get into a championship game and a 1-loss team get left out? Unless of course the POS team beat the 1-loss team, and ended up with a better divisional record. In which case they're probably not a "POS" team...



That's a little melodramatic. The gentrification of CFB began many years ago; these structural changes to the sport are simply an overdue confirmation of that status quo.

CFB is the second most popular sport in America, 2nd only to the NFL. You can't start throwing billions of dollars at an industry and expect it to remain unchanged.

Again..........we can agree to disagree. There's no way anyone can tell what a divison within a conference will look like from year to year. One division could be total crap and it has happened before, most recently in the SEC. The only way you can have a true conference champion is by playing a round robin which can not happen anymore except for this year's edition of the Big12.

 

[DuffHouse12]

here's my take - forgive me if i touch on things that have been mentioned:

this 4 team playoff could actually stop the super conferences. as it stands now, the conferences looking to meet the 12 team conference championship game has a benefit of trying to get to the BCS game. SEC has been the first on that train, and the rest want it.

however, if you no longer need to be top 2 to get in, a conference championship game could now be a greater risk than reward. media rights for the championship games will be a benefit but... we'll see. #1 overall team might be able to lose a conference championship game and still make the top 4.

if that happens.... hold onto your hats.

 

[rock_knutne]

here's my take - forgive me if i touch on things that have been mentioned:

this 4 team playoff could actually stop the super conferences. as it stands now, the conferences looking to meet the 12 team conference championship game has a benefit of trying to get to the BCS game. SEC has been the first on that train, and the rest want it.

however, if you no longer need to be top 2 to get in, a conference championship game could now be a greater risk than reward. media rights for the championship games will be a benefit but... we'll see. #1 overall team might be able to lose a conference championship game and still make the top 4.

if that happens.... hold onto your hats.

Good point.

 

[tadman95]

I would bet these same discussions are going on in the smoke-filled back rooms in the conference headquarters.

I personally think it's up to the individual conferences to determine how they chose their champion.

That said, I still don't buy the 4 superconferences determining the champion. Who is to say these 64 teams represent the pool a national champion is chosen from?

I'm obviously biased being in ACC country, but to put a Baylor, Iowa State, Indiana, Vanderbulit, etc... in the pool of the best 64 teams is silly.

For arguments sake, let's say the 4 conferences pull this off and claim the National Championship. Couldn't the other schools just reform and create their own National Championship? Aren't we then back where we started? Now the ACC is no football powerhouse (we did manage to pull FSU and Miami into mediocrity LOL) but Clemson and Georgia Tech won it, and Pittsburgh (soon to be ACC) won it as an independent too.

I just think we are going to end up with some scenario other than a 4 team playoff out of the superconferences.

IMHO

 

[gkIrish]

Not really relevant to this thread but I didn't want to start a new one

Ohio State Buckeyes cancel Georgia Bulldogs home-and-home series - ESPN

To summarize...O$U is backing away from playing Georgia (SEC) because they will be playing a Pac-12 school in the same proposed year.

Translation: too scared to play the SEC.

Alternate Translation: Too scared to schedule a 2nd decent team because they will play Oregon State or something like that

 

[phork]

Not really relevant to this thread but I didn't want to start a new one

Ohio State Buckeyes cancel Georgia Bulldogs home-and-home series - ESPN

To summarize...O$U is backing away from playing Georgia (SEC) because they will be playing a Pac-12 school in the same proposed year.

Translation: too scared to play the SEC.

Alternate Translation: Too scared to schedule a 2nd decent team because they will play Oregon State or something like that

Translation: We don't want 2 hard nonconference games when we still have to run through our Big Slate and the Pac12 series.

I don't fault them in the least.

 

[Ndaccountant]

Translation: We don't want 2 hard nonconference games when we still have to run through our Big Slate and the Pac12 series.

I don't fault them in the least.

Which is the reason why some sort of strength of schedule / OOC schedule would go a long way in the new playoff format.

 

[gkIrish]

Translation: We don't want 2 hard nonconference games when we still have to run through our Big Slate and the Pac12 series.

I don't fault them in the least.

I'm a big fan of weakening ND's schedule but I think this just smells of fear

 

[Irish YJ]

Smells..... WREAKS.
Urban is just taking the path of least resistance. I hate UGA (I live in ATL, but cheer for GaTech, and UT), but was looking forward to seeing the Dawgs beat some Buckeye @$$.

 

[ACamp1900]

Of all the teams in cfb to play in a home and away... I believe I would like to play tOSU the most... I can think of no other fan base I would most like to wreck entirely/get bragging rights over

 

[Irish YJ]

Of all the teams in cfb to play in a home and away... I believe I would like to play tOSU the most... I can think of no other fan base I would most like to wreck entirely/get bragging rights over

+1
From those not on the current schedule, or not frequently on our schedule......

I'd love to wreck any of these.... in order....
OSU
UGA
any of the big Florida 3
Alabama
LSU
Oregon

I'd just like to see us play these for enjoyment.....
GaTech
Tennessee
Vandy
Indiana
TCU
Boise St

 

[Rhode Irish]

Translation: We don't want 2 hard nonconference games when we still have to run through our Big Slate and the Pac12 series.

I don't fault them in the least.

Heaven forbid they play 5 top-75 teams in the same season....

 

[Rocket's Rocket Fan]

Of all the teams in cfb to play in a home and away... I believe I would like to play tOSU the most... I can think of no other fan base I would most like to wreck entirely/get bragging rights over

^^^This^^^

 

[rock_knutne]

Not really relevant to this thread but I didn't want to start a new one

Ohio State Buckeyes cancel Georgia Bulldogs home-and-home series - ESPN

To summarize...O$U is backing away from playing Georgia (SEC) because they will be playing a Pac-12 school in the same proposed year.

Translation: too scared to play the SEC.

Alternate Translation: Too scared to schedule a 2nd decent team because they will play Oregon State or something like that

Translation: We don't want 2 hard nonconference games when we still have to run through our Big Slate and the Pac12 series.

I don't fault them in the least.

Typical O$U.........their nonconference schedule is a joke and it's only going to get worse under Urban "Liar". LMFAO........their big NCG this year is Cal at home, topped off with games against Miami OH, UCF and yes folks, that powerhouse CFB program UAB. Complete joke!

 

[rock_knutne]

Of all the teams in cfb to play in a home and away... I believe I would like to play tOSU the most... I can think of no other fan base I would most like to wreck entirely/get bragging rights over

^^^This^^^

True that!! I'm from Ohio and they are the worst fanbase in all of CFB.........bunch of pompus idiots!

 

[phork]

Typical O$U.........their nonconference schedule is a joke and it's only going to get worse under Urban "Liar". LMFAO........their big NCG this year is Cal at home, topped off with games against Miami OH, UCF and yes folks, that powerhouse CFB program UAB. Complete joke!

Cal has been an under achiever for a long time, don't know why.. And UCF is in a lot of peoples top25..

 

[anarin]

Cal has been an under achiever for a long time, don't know why.. And UCF is in a lot of peoples top25..

Cal is their states version of UCF.

Don't hurt the Conference USA knights!!!

 

[rock_knutne]

Cal has been an under achiever for a long time, don't know why.. And UCF is in a lot of peoples top25..

C'mon.........UCF? The bottom line is O$U plays garbage in non-conference games and believe me, it will get worse with that snake Urban Meyer.

 

[phork]

C'mon.........UCF? The bottom line is O$U plays garbage in non-conference games and believe me, it will get worse with that snake Urban Meyer.

Yah because no one else in the country does this?

 

[rock_knutne]

Yah because no one else in the country does this?

I never said that, there's plenty of teams who do it but O$U is infamous for it. What makes me boil is their fans, they act like they play the toughest schedule in the country every year and that couldn't be farther from the truth and the Big10 is no gauntlet.

People can say what they want about U$C and Michigan but they don't run and hide from anyone.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

SI's Stewart Mandel proposes a compromise between the "Top 4" and "Conference Champs" models here.

Fortunately, there is a solution that should appease all sides. It's been informally dubbed the "three-and-one" model -- as in, the three highest-rated conference champions and the highest-rated at-large team. It ensures that no conference champ in the top four would get left out and guarantees a team like No. 2 Alabama in 2011 wouldn't sit home in favor of No. 10 Wisconsin. It also provides an entry point for Notre Dame and other independents.

Most reassuringly, history indicates it wouldn't be that different from a straight-up top four.

In the 14-year BCS era, 42 of the 56 teams that finished in the top four of the BCS standings won their conference championship. That's 75 percent, which is the same exact number a three-and-one system would guarantee. Only five times in 14 years would a top four team have been left out for failing to win its conference, and all five occasions involved flipping the No. 4 and 5 teams. There would never have been a No. 3 left out or a No. 6 let in.