Stanford Recruiting and Everything Else

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Making dreams come true‼️ 1000% COMMITTED&#55357;&#56628;⚪️&#55356;&#57138;<a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/FearTheTree?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#FearTheTree</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/CardClass21?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#CardClass21</a> <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/AGTG?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#AGTG</a> <a href="https://t.co/iCsGpsqO91">pic.twitter.com/iCsGpsqO91</a></p>— Shield Taylor (@ShieldTaylor1) <a href="https://twitter.com/ShieldTaylor1/status/1286707948396347392?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 24, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

2021 3* Louisiana TE Shield Taylor commits to Stanford

https://247sports.com/Player/Shield-Taylor-46101127/

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">The Stanford Fountain Hopper (which broke the Brock Turner case) reports Stanford Athletics housed 4 fall sports teams in the Sheraton across from campus much of the summer. They cut 11 sports teams, in person fall classes, and the Pac-12 cancelled fall sports during this time.</p>— RedditCFB (@RedditCFB) <a href="https://twitter.com/RedditCFB/status/1298675921956659200?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">August 26, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[dublinirish]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">ALL GLORY TO GOD🙏🏾 COMMITTED!!! 💯 <a href="https://t.co/fno5KXlhek">pic.twitter.com/fno5KXlhek</a></p>— Jayson Raines 👨🏾*🎨 (@jayysonraines) <a href="https://twitter.com/jayysonraines/status/1301294522261962758?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 2, 2020</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

2021 3 star WR out of NJ

 

[Irish YJ]

Stanford has zero commits 90 or better for 2021.
Ranked 80th.

Ouch

 

[Legacy]

The swimming team is in Colorado Springs.

 

[NDMIA]

I'd love to say this is the beginning of the end for Stanford in terms of being on par with ND for the high academic powerhouses, but I think Shaw is too good of a coach and too good of a recruiter for this class to hold him down. I'd bet the 2022 is significantly better. After all, check out their recruiting classes in recent memory...

2014: #13
2015: #24
2016: #16
2017: #14
2018: #40 (only took 15 and was a pretty good class)
2019: #19
2020: #21
2021: #80

The 2021 class is a nightmare and just not good in any fashion that you look at it, but they were #20 in 247 Team Talent last year so they've got enough talent with their style of play to continue winning under Shaw.

 

[Irish YJ]

I'd love to say this is the beginning of the end for Stanford in terms of being on par with ND for the high academic powerhouses, but I think Shaw is too good of a coach and too good of a recruiter for this class to hold him down. I'd bet the 2022 is significantly better. After all, check out their recruiting classes in recent memory...

2014: #13
2015: #24
2016: #16
2017: #14
2018: #40 (only took 15 and was a pretty good class)
2019: #19
2020: #21
2021: #80

The 2021 class is a nightmare and just not good in any fashion that you look at it, but they were #20 in 247 Team Talent last year so they've got enough talent with their style of play to continue winning under Shaw.

Agree for the most part, but if 22 doesn't rebound, IDK. The PAC postponing/cancelling may impact next year.

I also think some of the other PAC teams are catching up and/or passing them. Being 4-8 last year hurt too. 3-6 and the very bottom of the North.

 

[greyhammer90]

I'd love to say this is the beginning of the end for Stanford in terms of being on par with ND for the high academic powerhouses, but I think Shaw is too good of a coach and too good of a recruiter for this class to hold him down. I'd bet the 2022 is significantly better. After all, check out their recruiting classes in recent memory...

2014: #13
2015: #24
2016: #16
2017: #14
2018: #40 (only took 15 and was a pretty good class)
2019: #19
2020: #21
2021: #80

The 2021 class is a nightmare and just not good in any fashion that you look at it, but they were #20 in 247 Team Talent last year so they've got enough talent with their style of play to continue winning under Shaw.

I agree that I don't see Stanford dropping below mediocre as long as Shaw is there. The good news is that if we are able to keep up our top 10-ish status long term, I think the choice for academic minded kids that want to compete for championships can remain clearly on ND's side.

 

[stpeteirish]

I'd love to say this is the beginning of the end for Stanford in terms of being on par with ND for the high academic powerhouses, but I think Shaw is too good of a coach and too good of a recruiter for this class to hold him down. I'd bet the 2022 is significantly better. After all, check out their recruiting classes in recent memory...

2014: #13
2015: #24
2016: #16
2017: #14
2018: #40 (only took 15 and was a pretty good class)
2019: #19
2020: #21
2021: #80

The 2021 class is a nightmare and just not good in any fashion that you look at it, but they were #20 in 247 Team Talent last year so they've got enough talent with their style of play to continue winning under Shaw.

If they were #20 in team talent last year and went 4-8 maybe Shaw isn't that good a coach any more.

Another data point is the mass exodus of players with eligibility this off season. Yeah, Shaw tried to spin it as an academic issue but I think that BS. Now recruiting is dropping off a cliff. Guys don't want to play for him. Something's up on the Farm.

 

[IrishLax]

Shaw was never a good coach. Good college coaches do one of three things (or a combination of all three):
1. Innovative schemes that put them at an advantage over their opponent.
2. Elite recruiting to out-talent the opponent.
3. Program building with an emphasis on identity, culture, and fit.

Shaw runs the most basic, terrible "pro style" offense ever. For awhile, it seemed that he would recruit at an elite level but then it turns out most of the "5-star" kids he got actually suck and he's frankly been mediocre-at-best on the trail for years now. He struggles to fill up his 85. He also has no eye for talent, in sharp contrast to Harbaugh. The culture Harbaugh established that was extremely physical and tough and relied on player development is gone. They're now a thin team with major holes and most of their players are soft as Charmin.

In short, Shaw is driving Stanford into the ground because he thinks/knows he has a job for life and doesn't care to make necessary changes. Oh, and the juice isn't flowing anymore.

 

[Irish YJ]

If they were #20 in team talent last year and went 4-8 maybe Shaw isn't that good a coach any more.

Another data point is the mass exodus of players with eligibility this off season. Yeah, Shaw tried to spin it as an academic issue but I think that BS. Now recruiting is dropping off a cliff. Guys don't want to play for him. Something's up on the Farm.

In all fairness, they were hit hard by the injury bug last year. Both at QB and OL.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Shaw was never a good coach. Good college coaches do one of three things (or a combination of all three):
1. Innovative schemes that put them at an advantage over their opponent.
2. Elite recruiting to out-talent the opponent.
3. Program building with an emphasis on identity, culture, and fit.

Shaw runs the most basic, terrible "pro style" offense ever. For awhile, it seemed that he would recruit at an elite level but then it turns out most of the "5-star" kids he got actually suck and he's frankly been mediocre-at-best on the trail for years now. He struggles to fill up his 85. He also has no eye for talent, in sharp contrast to Harbaugh. The culture Harbaugh established that was extremely physical and tough and relied on player development is gone. They're now a thin team with major holes and most of their players are soft as Charmin.

In short, Shaw is driving Stanford into the ground because he thinks/knows he has a job for life and doesn't care to make necessary changes. Oh, and the juice isn't flowing anymore.

 

[zelezo vlk]

I'm with Lax on this, Shaw has not been recruiting well, nor developing talent well, for years. They always have a couple good players, but not all that much. But the scary thing to me is that a good coach could absolutely take them back to regularly getting 10 wins per season. Who should we fear getting that job?

I doubt Shaw gets fired, but it's a scary what-if for me.

 

[greyhammer90]

Shaw was never a good coach. Good college coaches do one of three things (or a combination of all three):
1. Innovative schemes that put them at an advantage over their opponent.
2. Elite recruiting to out-talent the opponent.
3. Program building with an emphasis on identity, culture, and fit.

Shaw runs the most basic, terrible "pro style" offense ever. For awhile, it seemed that he would recruit at an elite level but then it turns out most of the "5-star" kids he got actually suck and he's frankly been mediocre-at-best on the trail for years now. He struggles to fill up his 85. He also has no eye for talent, in sharp contrast to Harbaugh. The culture Harbaugh established that was extremely physical and tough and relied on player development is gone. They're now a thin team with major holes and most of their players are soft as Charmin.

In short, Shaw is driving Stanford into the ground because he thinks/knows he has a job for life and doesn't care to make necessary changes. Oh, and the juice isn't flowing anymore.

He might not be a good coach anymore, but saying he was never a good coach is a pretty big stretch. He's been the HC at Stanford for 9 years, has only had less than 9 wins twice, and has won two "BCS" bowls during that time. I'm not great at math but that's about infinity times more BCS bowls than Notre Dame has won this century.

EDIT: To be clear though, I absolutely hate Shaw. Dude is the biggest complainer in CFB.

 

[greyhammer90]

I think as the game continues to get faster Shaw will end up being a Paul Johnson type coach. Basically too successful to get rid of for a football program without a lot of historical success, but runs a scheme and style that isn't congruent with modern football. His odd style of football where you line up 10 men at the LOS and push will work well enough to maintain some success and cause Stanford to be a tough out, because 1) no one will be built to counter it, and 2) he runs that scheme pretty well. But the lack of evolution and speed of the game will ensure that they'll basically never compete on the big stage.

Tl;dr in 10 more years Stanford will be the new Navy.

 

[IrishLax]

He might not be a good coach anymore, but saying he was never a good coach is a pretty big stretch. He's been the HC at Stanford for 9 years, has only had less than 9 wins twice, and has won two "BCS" bowls during that time. I'm not great at math but that's about infinity times more BCS bowls than Notre Dame has won this century.

EDIT: To be clear though, I absolutely hate Shaw. Dude is the biggest complainer in CFB.

I think there is a difference between being the coach of a good team, and being a good coach. For example, Mike Leach doesn't have half that resume and I would fight anyone who says Shaw is better.

More to your point though, I give Shaw full credit for his very good 2015 team. I give him little to no credit for his first three seasons which were all with Harbaugh's players running Harbaugh's systems with Harbaugh's staff on both sides of the ball. In his six seasons with "his guys" getting most of the PT, he's lost 5, 2, 3, 5, 4, 8 games. That's 4.5 losses per season in the worst power conference in college football.

 

[greyhammer90]

I think there is a difference between being the coach of a good team, and being a good coach. For example, Mike Leach doesn't have half that resume and I would fight anyone who says Shaw is better.

More to your point though, I give Shaw full credit for his very good 2015 team. I give him little to no credit for his first three seasons which were all with Harbaugh's players running Harbaugh's systems with Harbaugh's staff on both sides of the ball. In his six seasons with "his guys" getting most of the PT, he's lost 5, 2, 3, 5, 4, 8 games. That's 4.5 losses per season in the worst power conference in college football.

Leach averaged ~5.9 losses per year, against the same conference, within the same time-frame, with less academic restrictions.

 

[Irish YJ]

He might not be a good coach anymore, but saying he was never a good coach is a pretty big stretch. He's been the HC at Stanford for 9 years, has only had less than 9 wins twice, and has won two "BCS" bowls during that time. I'm not great at math but that's about infinity times more BCS bowls than Notre Dame has won this century.

EDIT: To be clear though, I absolutely hate Shaw. Dude is the biggest complainer in CFB.

I read something late last year talking about Shaw's record vs non-PAC teams. Can't remember the specifics, but aside from ND, I think he's only beat like one or two ranked non-PAC teams. And that may have been 2015 (when they were indeed good).

Anyway, he's never wowed me. The PAC has been down for a while now.

 

[greyhammer90]

I read something late last year talking about Shaw's record vs non-PAC teams. Can't remember the specifics, but aside from ND, I think he's only beat like one or two ranked non-PAC teams. And that may have been 2015 (when they were indeed good).

Anyway, he's never wowed me. The PAC has been down for a while now.

I know it's at least two, because he's won two Rose Bowls...

Also that's a pretty petty stat. No PAC12 wins and no ND wins. So out of a selection of what, 2 games per year? And not many of those teams, that he beat, are ranked. Not super compelling.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Leach averaged ~5.9 losses per year, against the same conference, within the same time-frame, with less academic restrictions.

Leach taking over at Washington State, a perennial doormat, where his predecessor went 9-41, is a bit different than Shaw inheriting a team QB'd by Andrew Luck, with Harbaugh's staff, that just went 12-1 and won the Orange Bowl.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Leach and Shaw are both good coaches. I'll take Leach. He's also certainly a LOT more entertaining in every conceivable way. Shaw was "innovative" (sort of) in a very constricted box of Harbaugh-ish "Big Boy Football." The only thing that I liked (objectively) about Shaw-ball was the extra OLinemen and the monster-in-the-backfield. I'd watch that and wish that Kelly would do it occasionally. And also about Shaw, it wouldn't hurt to have a McCaffrey or Love in your backfield every season. .... imagine ND with a guy that explosive and smart.

 

[greyhammer90]

Leach taking over at Washington State, a perennial doormat, where his predecessor went 9-41, is a bit different than Shaw inheriting a team QB'd by Andrew Luck, with Harbaugh's staff, that just went 12-1 and won the Orange Bowl.

Lax didn't count the first 3 years of Shaw's record (some of his best years) in his argument to adjust for that already, so that argument loses a lot of steam. So at what point can I start counting Leach's record so that it would feel fair to you? Talk about playing with a handicap.

 

[greyhammer90]

This is an absolute win for me guys. If you can convince me that Shaw is actually a super terrible coach, I'd be really happy about that. Not a fan.

 

[Irish YJ]

Leach averaged ~5.9 losses per year, against the same conference, within the same time-frame, with less academic restrictions.

Leach took over for Wuff, who went 4-32, only winning 2 conf games once. Leach had 36 PAC losses in 8 years for avg 4.5/year, but he improved the team to where they were consistently in the top 3 (North), and was 1st the year before he mailed it in and left. Shaw took over a team that was in good condition, and at least had a history of winning.

 

[greyhammer90]

Leach and Shaw are both good coaches. I'll take Leach. He's also certainly a LOT more entertaining in every conceivable way. Shaw was "innovative" (sort of) in a very constricted box of Harbaugh-ish "Big Boy Football." The only thing that I liked (objectively) about Shaw-ball was the extra OLinemen and the monster-in-the-backfield. I'd watch that and wish that Kelly would do it occasionally. And also about Shaw, it wouldn't hurt to have a McCaffrey or Love in your backfield every season. .... imagine ND with a guy that explosive and smart.

I love Leach. Really wish Tennessee would have picked him up. I think the East would've been way more entertaining with him in it. I think the West is way too much of a paper shredder for him to make any sort of mark at MSU.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Lax didn't count the first 3 years of Shaw's record (some of his best years) in his argument to adjust for that already, so that argument loses a lot of steam. So at what point can I start counting Leach's record so that it would feel fair to you? Talk about playing with a handicap.

Lax's argument is that Leach has obviously done more with less, and that Stanford is regressing to the mean under Shaw because he's just not a very good coach. Shaw deserves credit for 2015, but once you discount his first three years for the Harbaugh effect, his record in a pillowy soft Pac-12 doesn't do much to help his case.

 

[Pops Freshenmeyer]

Lax's argument is that Leach has obviously done more with less, and that Stanford is regressing to the mean under Shaw because he's just not a very good coach. Shaw deserves credit for 2015, but once you discount his first three years for the Harbaugh effect, his record in a pillowy soft Pac-12 doesn't do much to help his case.

Well, Shaw shouldn't get zero credit for those teams. It's not like Harbaugh has looked like a genius program architect at UM.

I can completely buy that Shaw has lost his fastball from a scheme POV but I was hearing about the imminent collapse of Stanford after Harbaugh/Luck left and they kept winning.

Shaw's tenure is:

11-2
12-2
11-3
8-5
12-2
10-3
9-5
9-4
4-8

At the very least, he WAS a good coach who is losing his fastball.

Anyway, count me in the Mike Leach is overrated crowd. His WSU tenure was against the pillowy soft Pac-12 but combined with a Briles-era-Baylor OOC schedule.

 

[greyhammer90]

Lax's argument is that Leach has obviously done more with less, and that Stanford is regressing to the mean under Shaw because he's just not a very good coach. Shaw deserves credit for 2015, but once you discount his first three years for the Harbaugh effect, his record in a pillowy soft Pac-12 doesn't do much to help his case.

I feel like everyone forgot that the original argument was that "never a good coach" was a stretch. Everyone's saying "Well no that's actually reasonable. Yes, he had three years of sustained success after his predecessor, took a team of his own players to 12-2 a few years after that, won a couple of Rose bowls, and has basically lived at 9 yearly wins, well above the Stanford's norm.... but if you discount that, he's really just been treading water."

Just saying, his "regression" is arguably better than any long stretch of ND football I've seen in my lifetime, with hopefully this current stretch taking it easily going forward.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Well, Shaw shouldn't get zero credit for those teams. It's not like Harbaugh has looked like a genius program architect at UM.

I can completely buy that Shaw has lost his fastball from a scheme POV but I was hearing about the imminent collapse of Stanford after Harbaugh/Luck left and they kept winning.

Shaw's tenure is:

11-2
12-2
11-3
8-5
12-2
10-3
9-5
9-4
4-8

At the very least, he WAS a good coach who is losing his fastball.

Like hammer, as long as this story ends with Stanford falling back to the earth, I don't much care about the narrative of how or why it happened.

Anyway, count me in the Mike Leach is overrated crowd. He plays the pillowy soft Pac-12 but combines it with a Briles-era-Baylor OOC schedule.

Don't really have a dog in this fight. The former is one of the few true innovators who's still coaching, and he's always entertaining. Shaw rode Harbaugh's coat-tails hard and is one of the most obnoxious coaches in the game. Leach probably gets more credit than he's due because of his cult of personality, and Shaw probably gets more hate than he's due because he's a whiny bitch. C'est la vie :shrug:

 

[greyhammer90]

Like hammer, as long as this story ends with Stanford falling back to the earth, I don't much care about the narrative of how or why it happened.



Don't really have a dog in this fight. The former is one of the few true innovators who's still coaching, and he's always entertaining. Shaw rode Harbaugh's coat-tails hard and is one of the most obnoxious coaches in the game. Leach probably gets more credit than he's due because his cult of personality, and Shaw probably gets more hate than he's due because he's a whiny bitch. :shrug:

This is a take I can get behind.