Silly Season '13 (Coaching Changes)

[IrishLax]

I agree with that point in regards to NU. PSU has every resource available. It wasn't long ago (i.e. directly before the sanctions) that PSU was pumping out top 10 recruiting classes consistently. As Lax said, the sanctions are the only thing holding back PSU.

Exactly, get past sanctions and get the RIGHT coach in there and they can be a 1A program in no time. Everything is correctable almost overnight with a winning coach except for the black mark of Sandusky... and eventually that fade over time.

Nebraska... I don't see how Nebraska gets over their lack of $$ and lack of recruiting ability. Neither of those seem easily correctable.

 

[phork]

I don't even think Michigan is a 1A anymore. And frankly a lot of kids who play football and are headed for a scholarship do not care about the degree value. They want the fastest route for their NFL ticket to be punched. A lot more of those kids do not have the academics to survive at a school like ND.

I think ND has kind of pushed itself to 1B, regardless of tradition/money/recruiting. No one respects ND. And until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls that stigma will still be attached.

I see Texas as the best job in college football. Money, boosters & money. Oh and if you didn't recruit one kid outside of Texas you would probably still be good.

 

[IrishLax]

That can be a double edged sword on the football field if the goal is winning games... just saying.

Anyway, I don't think we are even talking about the same think here… If I were a top coach I wouldn’t take the PSU job right now, which I think was LAX's main point. I see that totally.

My thing was I got caught up in the idea that NU and PSU are no longer 1A programs or CFB ‘royalty’, which, if that’s the case, then one has to ask honestly if ND is also, and I stand by that.

I'll tell you what, if ND wasn't in the title game last year I'd have to seriously consider them being a 1B program.

But they were, making it 3 BCS bowls in 8 seasons, and they signed a killer recruiting class, and the NBC ratings were as strong as ever, and competitive pay for head coach and assistants happened, and ND was able to retain independence while moving other sports to the ACC, and ND is near the top in quantity of fans nationwide, is one of the few truly nationally relevant brands, etc.

Right now... ND would have no problem attracting a top tier coach, is very competitive on the field, has elite fan support (one of only 7 schools to sell out bowl allotment, and can anyone else pull off the Shamrock Series? No.), has the $$, has the recruiting ability nationwide, etc.

ND checks every single box of a 1A program, and I don't think that's really even debatable.

 

[IrishLax]

I don't even think Michigan is a 1A anymore. And frankly a lot of kids who play football and are headed for a scholarship do not care about the degree value. They want the fastest route for their NFL ticket to be punched. A lot more of those kids do not have the academics to survive at a school like ND.

I think ND has kind of pushed itself to 1B, regardless of tradition/money/recruiting. No one respects ND. And until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls that stigma will still be attached.

I see Texas as the best job in college football. Money, boosters & money. Oh and if you didn't recruit one kid outside of Texas you would probably still be good.

This is a moronic post. Go away.

 

[ACamp1900]

ND checks every single box of a 1A program, and I don't think that's really even debatable.

Yet here we are... odd...

ND hasn't won a single meaningful game in 20 years... so yeah, there is at least one major box that is unchecked. I also think there is something to phork's 'moronic post'... to the average CFB fan, ND is a punch line...

Don't mistake me though, I think ND is still royalty, I just happen to think NU and PSU still are also.

 

[gkIrish]

I don't even think Michigan is a 1A anymore. And frankly a lot of kids who play football and are headed for a scholarship do not care about the degree value. They want the fastest route for their NFL ticket to be punched. A lot more of those kids do not have the academics to survive at a school like ND.

I think ND has kind of pushed itself to 1B, regardless of tradition/money/recruiting. No one respects ND. And until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls that stigma will still be attached.

I see Texas as the best job in college football. Money, boosters & money. Oh and if you didn't recruit one kid outside of Texas you would probably still be good.

Like National Championship games?

 

[gkIrish]

Yet here we are... odd...

ND hasn't won a single meaningful game in 20 years... so yeah, there is at least one major box that is unchecked. I also think there is something to phork's 'moronic post'... to the average CFB fan, ND is a punch line...

Don't mistake me though, I think ND is still royalty, I just happen to think NU and PSU still are also.

Even if one box is unchecked, the other boxes are so strong that it doesn't even matter. Notre Dame is a top 5 program/job and it's not even debatable IMO. And I try to be as objective as humanly possible about ND football so I'm not being a homer.

 

[IrishLax]

Yet here we are... odd...

ND hasn't won a single meaningful game in 20 years... so yeah, there is at least one major box that is unchecked. I also think there is something to phork's 'moronic post'... to the average CFB fan, ND is a punch line...

Don't mistake me though, I think ND is still royalty, I just happen to think NU and PSU still are also.

What does this even mean? Beating top 10 Oklahoma at their place wasn't meaningful? Being the only team to beat 13-1 MSU this year wasn't meaningful? It seems quite narrow-minded to act like a program's desirability, prowess, and stature is dependent solely on wins in national championships... or BCS games... or wherever you're drawing this imaginary line.

Phork's post was moronic because it was his classic sloppy troll job. "Regardless of (lists everything that defines the power of a program), I don't think they're a top tier program." Logical contradiction much?

"No one respects ND". So explain why Pitt celebrated like they had won a national championship after beating a borderline unranked Notre Dame team? Explain why everyone circles ND on their calendar if no one respects the program. Explain why BYU did a whole segment for their television channel on the awesomeness of ND prior to the game this year. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

"Until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls..." Oh, you mean like the national championship last year? Is that enough of a "big time" bowl for you?

 

[IrishLax]

Even if one box is unchecked, the other boxes are so strong that it doesn't even matter. Notre Dame is a top 5 program/job and it's not even debatable IMO. And I try to be as objective as humanly possible about ND football so I'm not being a homer.

This. Said far more succinctly than I am.

 

[ACamp1900]

What does this even mean? Beating top 10 Oklahoma at their place wasn't meaningful? Being the only team to beat 13-1 MSU this year wasn't meaningful? It seems quite narrow-minded to act like a program's desirability, prowess, and stature is dependent solely on wins in national championships... or BCS games... or wherever you're drawing this imaginary line.

Phork's post was moronic because it was his classic sloppy troll job. "Regardless of (lists everything that defines the power of a program), I don't think they're a top tier program." Logical contradiction much?

"No one respects ND". So explain why Pitt celebrated like they had won a national championship after beating a borderline unranked Notre Dame team? Explain why everyone circles ND on their calendar if no one respects the program. Explain why BYU did a whole segment for their television channel on the awesomeness of ND prior to the game this year. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

"Until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls..." Oh, you mean like the national championship last year? Is that enough of a "big time" bowl for you?

Who are you even responding to?? You quoted and bolded my post then referred only to other poster's points....

You’re letting the ND thing get in the way of the ultimate point here… that PSU and NU are still top programs… and if they are not, then you could at least make a case that ND isn’t either… They all have history. They all have tradition and all have taken a step back from their high expectations. They all have their own unique challenges with recruiting, for better or for worse. Money has been mentioned as a huge plus for ND… well, even though ND has ‘tons of money’ (as if PSU or NU don't have elite money) they also have a well-covered (on this board and others like it) history of not spending it on top coaches and such to the degree many other ‘top programs’ do. And of course the ‘royalty’ all have one thing in common (what got them there)… winning… and all three have fallen off that for sure. Now if you were to rank the top programs would PSU and NU be ahead or right next to ND... not in my opinion... but since we are both 'drawing this imaginary line'... maybe my line is just in a different place than yours??

I think when you really look at it, I don't think it's nearly as absurd of a comparison as you seem to want to make it.

 

[ACamp1900]

Florida
LSU
Bama
Texas
OU
tOSU
Oregon
USC
Michigan
UGA
FSU

Just off the top of my head... those are all commonly accepted as elite jobs/programs, or close to,... Excluding PSU, NU and ND... correct?

 

[ScooterIrish]

Florida
LSU
Bama
Texas
OU
tOSU
Oregon
USC
Michigan
UGA
FSU

Just off the top of my head... those are all commonly accepted as elite jobs, or close to,... Excluding PSU, NU and ND... correct?

If Michigan is considered elite, ND is too.

 

[ACamp1900]

If Michigan is considered elite, ND is too.

I agree...

 

[greyhammer90]

This is a moronic post. Go away.

Moronic? He had an opinion. I actually agree with him. I don't know where you live, but in the South ND is a punchline to a bad joke, and has been since I was a kid. And you can poo-poo the "SEC" way of thinking all you want, but the culture I grew up in is the same one a lot of these kids did. It's what they think of ND.

The viewpoint down here is that the only difference between ND and a school like Penn State is the large amount of undeserved publicity.

The only way for ND to turn that around is get into a big bowl game and run rampant on someone. Until then we have to sell our degree value to the kids that want to hear about it. Sorry if that pisses you off, but its true.

 

[IrishLax]

Moronic? He had an opinion. I actually agree with him. I don't know where you live, but in the South ND is a punchline to a bad joke, and has been since I was a kid. And you can poo-poo the "SEC" way of thinking all you want, but the culture I grew up in is the same one a lot of these kids did. It's what they think of ND.

The viewpoint down here is that the only difference between ND and a school like Penn State is the large amount of undeserved publicity.

The only way for ND to turn that around is get into a big bowl game and run rampant on someone. Until then we have to sell our degree value to the kids that want to hear about it. Sorry if that pisses you off, but its true.

I already explained exactly what was moronic. Has nothing to do with him having a contradictory opinion, it has everything to do with his ridiculous supporting paragraph that makes no sense on any level.

 

[greyhammer90]

What does this even mean? Beating top 10 Oklahoma at their place wasn't meaningful? Being the only team to beat 13-1 MSU this year wasn't meaningful? It seems quite narrow-minded to act like a program's desirability, prowess, and stature is dependent solely on wins in national championships... or BCS games... or wherever you're drawing this imaginary line.

No it doesn't matter. It doesn't. Beating an OU team that got beat a bajillion to nothing by A&M doesn't matter, especially when we go out and get our asses fondled on national television in the biggest game of the year. Beating people in big time bowl games is the only thing that will get us any recognition, sorry but its true. You can argue about fairness and "oh this is what things are" and "we didn't play any Div. 1AA opponents" and "we have a super tough schedule because we play no cupcakes". Guess what that means to anyone who isn't a ND fan? Whiney bitching. When big games happen, games that mean something, ND gets embarrassed. No one in the country would've cared about MSU's season without the Rose Bowl, and no one cares about OSU's season because they didn't win anything.

"No one respects ND". So explain why Pitt celebrated like they had won a national championship after beating a borderline unranked Notre Dame team? Explain why everyone circles ND on their calendar if no one respects the program. Explain why BYU did a whole segment for their television channel on the awesomeness of ND prior to the game this year. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

Because Pitt was an underdog and we're a rival. I mean, it's Pitt. They're not even a 1D job. Coaches would rather get a DUI then stick around that place for more than a year. And spare me the "everyone has us circled" battle cry of the ND fan... a lot of people get circled. Oregon, LSU, Bama, Oklahoma, Texas, USC, FSU, all get circled by everyone they play. And most everyone gets circled by the people in their conference.

"Until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls..." Oh, you mean like the national championship last year? Is that enough of a "big time" bowl for you?

Do you know what the word "consistently" means?

 

[PANDFAN]

like the rapper meek mill says...their level's to this $hit
TOP TIER:texas,ND,usc,michigan,bama,osu--elite and biggest names in NCAA--even when your down you are still top dog

2nd levelsu,neb,florida,lsu,florida st, i guess i would put oklahoma in this as well-----very good(this category to me is florida,lsu,fsu could win and win but will never reach the pinnacle in college football like psu/neb once they win again(hope they don't

3rd level: georgia,auburn,oregon,clemson,ucla,wisconsin,south carolina

4th-msu, asu,texas a & m, etc

 

[IrishLax]

Who are you even responding to?? You quoted and bolded my post then referred only to other poster's points....

You reffed phork's post, so I elaborated on what I found ridiculous in the sentences I bolded.

You’re letting the ND thing get in the way of the ultimate point here… that PSU and NU are still top programs… and if they are not, then you could at least make a case that ND isn’t either… They all have history. They all have tradition and all have taken a step back from their high expectations. They all have their own unique challenges with recruiting, for better or for worse. Money has been mentioned as a huge plus for ND… well, even though ND has ‘tons of money’ (as if PSU or NU don't have elite money) they also have a well-covered (on this board and others like it) history of not spending it on top coaches and such to the degree many other ‘top programs’ do. And of course the ‘royalty’ all have one thing in common (what got them there)… winning… and all three have fallen off that for sure. Now if you were to rank the top programs would PSU and NU be ahead or right next to ND... not in my opinion... but since we are both 'drawing this imaginary line'... maybe my line is just in a different place than yours??

I think when you really look at it, I don't think it's nearly as absurd of a comparison as you seem to want to make it.

Yeah, this all started as a discussion of coaching jobs and desirability. This has gotten clouded. On money, ND is now paying Kelly and assistants comparable 1A school. It's not Saban money, but it's very good. Money is not an issue for Penn State... although they got fined heavily and were paying O'Brien a lot less than Kelly is making now, they do have the ability to put up Tier 1A money for a coach right now if they wanted to. It absolutely is an issue for Nebraska though. Nebraska pays Tier 2 money.

To the second part I bolded, I guess this is what I don't understand. From a coaching standpoint, can we conceive of a coach who isn't a PSU alum or Nebraska alum that would ever consider taking the PSU or Nebraska jobs over Notre Dame if they all were open? I don't think so. Which is why I think they have to be on a different tier. In a couple years after PSU is potentially rebuilt? Then they could definitely be on the same tier. Nebraska? I don't see how they ever get back to Tier 1A, and don't think they even stick on Tier 1B for much longer.

If we're talking about "power ranking" programs than that probably needs to be a completely different thread.

 

[IrishLax]

You ignore the whole first ridiculous logical contradiction sentence from phork because...?

Because Pitt was an underdog and we're a rival. I mean, it's Pitt. They're not even a 1D job. Coaches would rather get a DUI then stick around that place for more than a year. And spare me the "everyone has us circled" battle cry of the ND fan... a lot of people get circled. Oregon, LSU, Bama, Oklahoma, Texas, USC, FSU, all get circled by everyone they play. And most everyone gets circled by the people in their conference.

That's literally the whole point. Pitt has won games when they were bigger underdogs, ever see a video of them dancing like giddy school girls afterwards? Certainly not after they beat an unranked (or quasi-unranked) team.

If they didn't respect ND, then they wouldn't act how they did. Period. Rival? No. That's in fact one of the very few games where we don't even have a rivalry trophy. Frequently played? Sure... fifth most I guess...

So your counter comes down to listing teams that others circle because they respect... as a point to support that "nobody respects Notre Dame?" Yeah, OK.

Do you know what the word "consistently" means?

Read better. He said "winning consistently" and "playing in big time bowls". Winning "consistently" you have to define parameters for but you can argue we don't do that despite 3 BCS appearance in 8 years. Arguing that we haven't played in a big time bowl? Yeah, OK. Notre Dame is T-13th with Texas and Miami in the BCS era for most BCS bowl appearances. From 2005 to present, we're T-9th with FSU, LSU, etc. That's not world beater... but it's top 10 in BCS bowl appearances over the last 9 years...

 

[Irish#1]

Yes. Come on. This is silly, ACAMP.

What makes Penn State not 1A is the Sandusky scandal and sanctions. They can easily get back up to that tier with the right coach. Nobody -- coaches or fans or recruits -- views them as a 1A school right now. They also have only two BCS bowl appearances in the BCS era.

Nebraska isn't 1A and is teetering on Tier 2. They have the tradition and the legacy and the fan support... that's it. In every other characteristic, they are not even close to 1A. Only 2 BCS bowl appearances, none in over a decade. So saying "blah blah titles since major bowl win" is really kind of ridiculous when you consider Notre Dame has made 4 BCS trips including a title game appearance since Nebraska was BCS level good -- much less relevant in any kind of national title picture.

Finally, it's not AT ALL about current winning that makes you Tier 1 (or 1A vs 1B) job. Oregon and Stanford are clearly dominant programs right now, but neither is a Tier 1A job like Michigan, because they all have serious flaws in important programmatic aspects.

Lax,
I think you have too narrow of a perspective and are basing things on what has been more recent. If you use tradition as one of the categories both Nebraska and PSU are in that group. Dry spells can be from a number of things, bad coaching hire, poor recruiting, HC getting too comfortable in his latter years, sanctions, etc.. What happened at PSU was terrible, but the people involved are gone and PSU will get through it.

ACamp has a good point. Given your guidelines ND isn't 1A right now. You can say that ND was in the NC last year, but I could easily counter that it was a one year wonder or fluke like a lot of teams that have a great year and then drop of the next year like we did, regardless of the reason. To me both schools will always be 1A because I can remember when both "ruled the roost" and helped define college football.

Also, you seem to forget how difficult it was to hire an elite coach the last few hires. Kelly has done a great job in proving you can still get kids to come to play on cold weather and take on tough academics. We may have an easier time getting an elite coach the next time, but we couldn't for a while.

 

[gkIrish]

ND withstood 20 years of generally average football and all of the following are still true:

1. Highest winning percentage all-time
2. 2nd most valuable team in the country (behind Texas)
3. National Championship game appearance in this decade, which only 10 other teams can also say is true. 11 if you count this year.
4. Multiple top 5 recruiting classes this decade (too lazy to look up how many)
5. Exclusive NBC contract.
6. Likely 3 first round draft picks in the 2014 Draft.

Not 1A.

 

[West Coast Domer]

Yes. Come on. This is silly, ACAMP.

What makes Penn State not 1A is the Sandusky scandal and sanctions. They can easily get back up to that tier with the right coach. Nobody -- coaches or fans or recruits -- views them as a 1A school right now. They also have only two BCS bowl appearances in the BCS era.

Nebraska isn't 1A and is teetering on Tier 2. They have the tradition and the legacy and the fan support... that's it. In every other characteristic, they are not even close to 1A. Only 2 BCS bowl appearances, none in over a decade. So saying "blah blah titles since major bowl win" is really kind of ridiculous when you consider Notre Dame has made 4 BCS trips including a title game appearance since Nebraska was BCS level good -- much less relevant in any kind of national title picture.

Finally, it's not AT ALL about current winning that makes you Tier 1 (or 1A vs 1B) job. Oregon and Stanford are clearly dominant programs right now, but neither is a Tier 1A job like Michigan, because they all have serious flaws in important programmatic aspects.

Making 4 BCS bowls is great but when you get embarrassed in 3 out of the 4 and don't win a single one that's a tough pill to swallow. Penn state won a BCS game but it was later vacated.

 

[ND NYC]

i thought the PSU program was done for good after the JS scandal.
for a long time.
then, i saw that michigan game on TV this year and thought maybe, just maybe they can come back.
only time will tell.

 

[phork]

Like National Championship games?

Exactly.

What does this even mean? Beating top 10 Oklahoma at their place wasn't meaningful? Being the only team to beat 13-1 MSU this year wasn't meaningful? It seems quite narrow-minded to act like a program's desirability, prowess, and stature is dependent solely on wins in national championships... or BCS games... or wherever you're drawing this imaginary line.

Beating a top 10 Oklahoma team at their place sure. Has ND been doing this regularly? Beating MSU, especially having the refs on our side. The bottom line, imaginary or not, is Wins. In my non-trolling opinion losing to teams like Pitt or Tulsa doesn't make you a Tier 1 team. As fans of the program we value tradition above all else. Too bad the rest of the country doesn't give a flying fuck why we play Navy, only that its Navy and its a cup cake.

Phork's post was moronic because it was his classic sloppy troll job. "Regardless of (lists everything that defines the power of a program), I don't think they're a top tier program." Logical contradiction much?

Sloppy troll job? Regardless of those things because those things don't matter in the here and now. All you hear about is Alabama is 3 of the last 4 National Championships, regardless of where they were the previous 20 years. SEC SEC SEC! Is it because the SEC is rich in tradition and wealthy? No, its because the SEC has dominated the NCG for 7 straight years. WINS. When ND can compete for a national championship, then come see.

"No one respects ND". So explain why Pitt celebrated like they had won a national championship after beating a borderline unranked Notre Dame team? Explain why everyone circles ND on their calendar if no one respects the program. Explain why BYU did a whole segment for their television channel on the awesomeness of ND prior to the game this year. Etcetera. Etcetera. Etcetera.

As quoted above they are a lesser rival, they also derailed any chance that ND had to make a BCS game, they were also .500 at the time. Yes ND is a big game, I still don't believe that ND is Tier1.

"Until ND starts winning consistently and playing in big time bowls..." Oh, you mean like the national championship last year? Is that enough of a "big time" bowl for you?

Let me rephrase that so you can understand it a bit better. Until ND starts winning consistently and competing in Big Time Bowls. Oh yes, I mean like the National Championship Game that ND got completely jail sexed in. ND had no business being there.

I already explained exactly what was moronic. Has nothing to do with him having a contradictory opinion, it has everything to do with his ridiculous supporting paragraph that makes no sense on any level.

I'm not sure what I did to illicit your ire dood, but whats with the troll blasts lately?

 

[gkIrish]

Phork---you say ND hasn't shown it can compete for a National Championship.

I'd argue that we were only one lucky break away from winning one last year. If KSU didn't lose to Baylor or if Ohio State chose to take their bowl ban in the previous season, we all know we would have beat either of those teams 8-9/10 times. Unfortunately we didn't get that lucky break and we got stuck playing Bama.

 

[IrishLax]

I'm not sure what I did to illicit your ire dood, but whats with the troll blasts lately?

Maybe it's your sig and avatar, but all of your posts recently read trollish to me. Never felt that way before, but that's the impression I get over the past month or so. I dunno.

Coming into a thread about coaching changes and the desirability of coaching jobs and dropping a bunch of "Nobody respects Notre Dame" and the like seems trollish... dunno what any of that has to do with how the job is viewed, nor does it really make much sense to me.

 

[IrishLax]

ACamp has a good point. Given your guidelines ND isn't 1A right now. You can say that ND was in the NC last year, but I could easily counter that it was a one year wonder or fluke like a lot of teams that have a great year and then drop of the next year like we did, regardless of the reason. To me both schools will always be 1A because I can remember when both "ruled the roost" and helped define college football.

Also, you seem to forget how difficult it was to hire an elite coach the last few hires. Kelly has done a great job in proving you can still get kids to come to play on cold weather and take on tough academics. We may have an easier time getting an elite coach the next time, but we couldn't for a while.

Again, I just don't really see what this has to do at all with the state of the program or how desirable of a job it is. We're not power ranking how well a program is set up to win games or comparing how good/dominant teams are right now.

To the bolded, I think it is an absolute guarantee (assuming we're not thrown under the bus late in the game in a year like this where everyone is scrounging for a coach) that ND would easily be able to hire an A-list coach when Kelly leaves. Like I said pages ago, if Kelly wasn't recruiting how he's recruiting and didn't get this team to a national championship game last year, then this would be a Tier 1B job for a coach that is looking. But he did.

But the pay Kelly is getting now is very good. The pay assistants are getting is very good. The roster is getting stacked with talent, and will be very attractive to coaches. Are there some categories where ND trails behind some schools? Sure. Weather, nationwide recruiting, etc. Are there factors where Notre Dame is better than most schools in Tier 1? Absolutely yes to that as well. The end result is a very lucrative and attractive job for any coach.

I just really, really don't see how you can make a case that Notre Dame isn't a Tier 1A destination coaching job for someone as currently configured. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[chubler]

There's a lot of shortsighted analysis here IMO. Isn't a top-tier program defined by the structural advantages they enjoy that set them up for sustained long term success? Because lots of the teams I see being mentioned (LSU, UGA, Oregon, etc) are currently elite but have a leap to make structurally to be practically guaranteed to be strong long-term like Texas, USC, and yes ND.

Don't want to start a fight, just dropping my thought that a 1A program should be one that you have to TRY to not succeed at as opposed to one that's been good recently.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

There's a lot of shortsighted analysis here IMO. Isn't a top-tier program defined by the structural advantages they enjoy that set them up for sustained long term success? Because lots of the teams I see being mentioned (LSU, UGA, Oregon, etc) are currently elite but have a leap to make structurally to be practically guaranteed to be strong long-term like Texas, USC, and yes ND.

Don't want to start a fight, just dropping my thought that a 1A program should be one that you have to TRY to not succeed at as opposed to one that's been good recently.

So where does that leave ND? I'll give you that Willingham didn't try as hard as some. But what about the rest?

 

[Luckylucci]

There's a lot of shortsighted analysis here IMO. Isn't a top-tier program defined by the structural advantages they enjoy that set them up for sustained long term success? Because lots of the teams I see being mentioned (LSU, UGA, Oregon, etc) are currently elite but have a leap to make structurally to be practically guaranteed to be strong long-term like Texas, USC, and yes ND.

Don't want to start a fight, just dropping my thought that a 1A program should be one that you have to TRY to not succeed at as opposed to one that's been good recently.

I agree with this. Short term performance really has nothing to do with it. We just pimped the Pinstripe bowl that's how bad they wanted us. An 8 win team. It's brand, fans, education, network, tradition, etc.