Shrinking Market for MBAs

[Rack Em]

Saw this on LinkedIn and found it interesting. I'll try to post a few more links soon. Basically several schools are closing their MBA programs due to declining enrollment and a lack of added value in the job market.

One of the schools of thought is that an MBA's only real value is the networking and that value is diminished if you go to a regional program and not a top program like Wharton or Booth.

I definitely agree with that sentiment, but I think being saddled with more student loan debt is a major breaking point for young professionals who don't see a sufficient ROI in sight.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-iowas-tippie-college-to-end-full-time-m-b-a-program-1503440964

 

[Meatloaf]

MBAs have basically gone the way of law school degrees. If it's not a top 25ish program, it's not worth the price. It absolutely blows my mind how some lowly ranked, regional schools think they can get away with charting the same prices as schools like Harvard, Wharton etc, and that people are willing to pay for it.

 

[nlroma1o]

I am in the process of deciding if I want to go back to get my MBA right now.... and I'm really torn on what to do. I am the candidate who qualifies and wants to go back for an MBA. But I still have undergrad debt and I am struggling with the notion of incurring grad school debt on top of that. And to spice up the scenario, I have my first child due in 1 month, so I have his education to worry about. Very discouraged at the moment.

 

[Rack Em]

I can also see this being a consequence of so many undergrads majoring in business and learning zero ability to problem-solve, reason, etc. They come out able to crunch the numbers, but lack the creativity to look big picture.

My hope is that this puts more emphasis on Liberal Arts educations and the value of being a well-rounded individual. That's the classical concept of a university - educate the whole person rather than job preparation.

Because I transferred into ND in '08, I was not able to graduate with a degree from Mendoza (that's since changed). I desperately wanted a Finance degree and thought it would set me up the best. I ended up in Economics instead. It was an amazing opportunity which forced me to understand the theory behind finance. I walked out of ND with a better ability to look big picture, which my Mendoza counterparts lacked. I'm extremely grateful I didn't end up in that degree mill and was afforded great faculty who pushed the Economics majors to be thinkers. At that time, Economics would actually lose a fair number of dual Finance-Economics majors because Economics was more difficult and time-consuming for them.

So my point is that the value of an MBA (even a regional program) is greatly diminished when the job market is flooded with finance majors who will just learn more finance. But the value of an MBA is higher when the programs are giving more refined skills and knowledge to students with a diverse background (i.e. Liberal Arts, Science, and Engineering majors). Hence part of the reason why several schools are closing their MBA doors.

 

[NorthDakota]

I am in the process of deciding if I want to go back to get my MBA right now.... and I'm really torn on what to do. I am the candidate who qualifies and wants to go back for an MBA. But I still have undergrad debt and I am struggling with the notion of incurring grad school debt on top of that. And to spice up the scenario, I have my first child due in 1 month, so I have his education to worry about. Very discouraged at the moment.

I wouldn't worry about the kid. If you paid for school, why should the kid be any different?

You do you my man.

 

[nlroma1o]

I wouldn't worry about the kid. If you paid for school, why should the kid be any different?

You do you my man.

The burden of student debt ways heavy on millions. I want to help my children out as much as possible and give them every advantage when they first graduate. There's always a chance he's a professional soccer player and I don't even have to worry about any of this. That's what I'm praying for at least. LOL

 

[zelezo vlk]

The burden of student debt ways heavy on millions. I want to help my children out as much as possible and give them every advantage when they first graduate. There's always a chance he's a professional soccer player and I don't even have to worry about any of this. That's what I'm praying for at least. LOL

For Lazio, eh?

 

[Ndaccountant]

I wouldn't worry about the kid. If you paid for school, why should the kid be any different?

You do you my man.

So that whole idea of giving your children a better life rings hallow for you?

 

[MNIrishman]

Saw this on LinkedIn and found it interesting. I'll try to post a few more links soon. Basically several schools are closing their MBA programs due to declining enrollment and a lack of added value in the job market.

One of the schools of thought is that an MBA's only real value is the networking and that value is diminished if you go to a regional program and not a top program like Wharton or Booth.

I definitely agree with that sentiment, but I think being saddled with more student loan debt is a major breaking point for young professionals who don't see a sufficient ROI in sight.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/university-of-iowas-tippie-college-to-end-full-time-m-b-a-program-1503440964

MBAs are definitely oversubscribed. I'm getting one myself--from a top ten program, part-time. My wife couldn't understand why I couldn't just go to the local state school. This is why.

 

[IrishLax]

MBAs have basically gone the way of law school degrees. If it's not a top 25ish program, it's not worth the price. It absolutely blows my mind how some lowly ranked, regional schools think they can get away with charting the same prices as schools like Harvard, Wharton etc, and that people are willing to pay for it.

This. The sticker price on an MBA = LOL for what you're getting at most places.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

I'm about half done with mine from a top 100 program. For me to move up in my company, having those three letters behind your name have basically become a requirement. 75% of our staff that work in our NYC HQ have a graduate degree of some kind.

I specifically didn't look for a top 25 program because taking on $100k in debt is something I couldn't stomach.

 

[NorthDakota]

So that whole idea of giving your children a better life rings hallow for you?

My parents could write a check for my loans tomorrow without it even hurting them. They gave me a very good life growing up. Don't need them to pay for my education on top of that.

If you want to pay for a young person's education though that's chill too.

 

[koonja]

I have no idea how much mine is worth. I'm basically 8 weeks from done.

The only reason I did it is because my company is paying for it completely. So for that reason, it's definitely worth it. Will it result in anything tangible? We'll see. I work for a fortune top-10 company, for what it's worth.

I have $50K in undergrad debt (currently), so I would have NEVER done my MBA if it wasn't paid for. Thankfully, I'm coasting for about 10 more months until I sell my house and net ~$60K, and I'm writing one big check to get rid of these Fn student loans once and for all.

Do you guys think it's more valuable in a small company versus big company?

 

[Meatloaf]

This. The sticker price on an MBA = LOL for what you're getting at most places.

And this is what the article is getting at. People are wising up to the fact that taking a two year break from the workforce to saddle yourself with debt just isn't worth it for all but the very top programs. Hence why Iowa is phasing out their full-time program in favor of bolstering their part-time programs.

 

[Ndaccountant]

My parents could write a check for my loans tomorrow without it even hurting them. They gave me a very good life growing up. Don't need them to pay for my education on top of that.

If you want to pay for a young person's education though that's chill too.

Obviously every situation is different depending on household income. But if the point was that he was struggling with the decision to incur more student loan debt or not, the thought he is putting his children's future first in his mind -- perhaps to not be put in a similar situation 25 years from now -- is refreshing. Wish there were more parents like him.

(BTW, not a knock on your parents, just pointing out that family economics could be different here)

 

[wizards8507]

For me to move up in my company, having those three letters behind your name have basically become a requirement.

This.

DO: Spend a lot of money to go to an elite MBA program if you want to work in consulting or investment banking and make loads of money in New York or Chicago or Boston.

DO: Get a cheap (yet intellectually legitimate) MBA if you want to add a credential to your resume and be able to check the "yes" box when an HR screen asks you if you have your MBA. Whether an HR screen should or should not filter candidates explicitly on that criterion is a separate conversation. Many of the actually do.

DO NOT: Incur debt or spend elite-MBA money on a middling MBA program. It's not worth it.

Separately, don't ever put "MBA" after your name. It's embarrassing. Unless you're a doctor, the only thing that should go after your name are professional credentials (CPA, Esq., RN, etc.)

 

[Rack Em]

This.

DO: Spend a lot of money to go to an elite MBA program if you want to work in consulting or investment banking and make loads of money in New York or Chicago or Boston.

DO: Get a cheap (yet intellectually legitimate) MBA if you want to add a credential to your resume and be able to check the "yes" box when an HR screen asks you if you have your MBA. Whether an HR screen should or should not filter candidates explicitly on that criterion is a separate conversation. Many of the actually do.

DO NOT: Incur debt or spend elite-MBA money on a middling MBA program. It's not worth it.

Separately, don't ever put "MBA" after your name. It's embarrassing. Unless you're a doctor, the only thing that should go after your name are professional credentials (CPA, Esq., RN, etc.)

Only douche bags put "Esq." behind their names. Like huge, full douche bags.

 

[zelezo vlk]

This is a good thread. Not that I was about to go to Business school or anything, but it had crossed my mind.

This.

DO: Spend a lot of money to go to an elite MBA program if you want to work in consulting or investment banking and make loads of money in New York or Chicago or Boston.

DO: Get a cheap (yet intellectually legitimate) MBA if you want to add a credential to your resume and be able to check the "yes" box when an HR screen asks you if you have your MBA. Whether an HR screen should or should not filter candidates explicitly on that criterion is a separate conversation. Many of the actually do.

DO NOT: Incur debt or spend elite-MBA money on a middling MBA program. It's not worth it.

Separately, don't ever put "MBA" after your name. It's embarrassing. Unless you're a doctor, the only thing that should go after your name are professional credentials (CPA, Esq., RN, etc.)

Or OP, OFM, CSC, FSSP etc...

 

[wizards8507]

Or OP, OFM, CSC, FSSP etc...

But not S.J. That's not a credential.

 

[zelezo vlk]

But not S.J. That's not a credential.

It's a sign to be very wary, but there are still good Jesuits. And I hear that those in novitiate and formation are very orthodox.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I have to say this depends entirely on your industry.

 

[koonja]

This.

DO: Spend a lot of money to go to an elite MBA program if you want to work in consulting or investment banking and make loads of money in New York or Chicago or Boston.

DO: Get a cheap (yet intellectually legitimate) MBA if you want to add a credential to your resume and be able to check the "yes" box when an HR screen asks you if you have your MBA. Whether an HR screen should or should not filter candidates explicitly on that criterion is a separate conversation. Many of the actually do.

DO NOT: Incur debt or spend elite-MBA money on a middling MBA program. It's not worth it.

Separately, don't ever put "MBA" after your name. It's embarrassing. Unless you're a doctor, the only thing that should go after your name are professional credentials (CPA, Esq., RN, etc.)

Ever? I hear what you're saying, but as someone who's about to be able to do that, I feel like I should do exactly that to improve my future with the company. Keep in mind, I work for a giant and my emails get sent all over multiple departments.

I feel like when they talk about who to promote, someone saying "isn't he a MBA" is a really good thing. Otherwise, how does my current employer even know, other than those who are close to me? I get that it helps when applying for a new job, but I don't want to work for a different company... I want to set myself up for success in my current one. If that means I'm douchey, so be it. Show me the money! Thoughts?

 

[wizards8507]

I feel like when they talk about who to promote, someone saying "isn't he a MBA" is a really good thing. Otherwise, how does my current employer even know, other than those who are close to me?

The people who are (or aren't) going to promote you are the ones who know your work, not randos who only know you from an e-mail signature.

 

[koonja]

The people who are (or aren't) going to promote you are the ones who know your work, not randos who only know you from an e-mail signature.

Even so, there are hundreds of great employees who do great work here. If I'm competing against someone who does work just as good as me, and the leaders are aware, them knowing that I have the MBA can very well be the clincher, all things equal. Which happens more than you might think at a company this size.

 

[wizards8507]

Which happens more than you might think at a company this size.

You know where I work, right?

Even so, there are hundreds of great employees who do great work here.

Hundreds of employees doing the same thing you do? I find that very had to believe. How many direct reports does your immediate boss have?

If I'm competing against someone who does work just as good as me, and the leaders are aware, them knowing that I have the MBA can very well be the clincher, all things equal.

Alternatively, you being the d-bag with ", MBA" after his name might be the clincher in the opposite direction. Credentials don't matter once you're in a company. At that point, it's quality of work and reputation.

 

[IrishLax]

Your goals, industry, and company size matter as Koon said.

For me, an MBA is currently irrelevant. I work at an engineering firm that is the largest structural-only firm in the DC market... it still has less than 150 total employees across both offices. I'm going to be judged by performance/profitability of my projects, and having a PE license is far more important than any management degree. None of the partners have an MBA.

But at a jumbo company or in a non-technical position, I could see it being very different.

 

[koonja]

You know where I work, right?


Hundreds of employees doing the same thing you do? I find that very had to believe. How many direct reports does your immediate boss have?


Alternatively, you being the d-bag with ", MBA" after his name might be the clincher in the opposite direction. Credentials don't matter once you're in a company. At that point, it's quality of work and reputation.

I have 4 peers, and report straight to the director of the department. But I work across many teams, and I'd say my working team ends up being ~25 people considering all of the cross-functional work.

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. I'm not in a hurry to 'look cool' and put MBA next to my sig, but I absolutely think it can matter when everyone who works in this department is pretty solid, ~10 are real good, and ~5 are ballers.

Assuming I'm one of the 5 high performers, I think it's the easiest way to distinguish 'who gets it' when everyone else's work/knowledge/experience/skills are about the same, even if they work on slightly different things than I do.

Without going into details, a lot of what I do is setting up strategy and initiatives/work streams on things that need to be addressed. It's not technical work at all, it's PM work I guess you'd call it. But identifying gaps, developing initiatives, and driving work streams to address where we need to get on a given area.

 

[wizards8507]

I have 4 peers, and report straight to the director of the department. But I work across many teams, and I'd say my working team ends up being ~25 people considering all of the cross-functional work.

I hear what you're saying, but I disagree. I'm not in a hurry to 'look cool' and put MBA next to my sig, but I absolutely think it can matter when everyone who works in this department is pretty solid, ~10 are real good, and ~5 are ballers.

Assuming I'm one of the 5 high performers, I think it's the easiest way to distinguish 'who gets it' when everyone else's work/knowledge/experience/skills are about the same, even if they work on different things than I do.

You do you. I'd personally focus on developing a relationship with your boss' boss. That's the guy who will impact your career the most.

 

[irishog77]

Only douche bags put "Esq." behind their names. Like huge, full douche bags.

Is it ok to put PIIHB after your name?

 

[Rack Em]

Is it ok to put PIIHB after your name?

Only if it's true.