Score one for the good guys

[In Lou I Trust]

Sure sounds like you're pro-war. How many Afghans have you talked to? They don't know what 9-11 is. They don't have news like we do. Still, to this day, after 10+ years in their country, many still have no idea what it is or was. They only know that we are there and many are happy. Many are also upset and want us out of their country, so they fight us and we call them terrorists. What would you do if someone invaded our country? You'd fight and call yourself a patriot.

What do you call propping up a dictator in Mubarak for decades? What about the bombing of Iraq for a decade after the Gulf War resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths? That number alone is more than the victims of 9-11. THe solution is to kill more people and make more enemies?

Luckily for me, I've spoken with many Afghans, Iraqis and Arab people in general. Mubarak... you bring him up insinuating that we should have done to him what we did with Saddam or vice versa, I assume. I've never heard any Egyptians say as nasty of things about Mubarak as I've heard Iraqis say about Saddam. By the way... why did you join the military?

 

[mgriff]

You forgot to mention that you're a vet.....

Still nothing intelligent coming out of that brain? Well I wish I could say I was surprised, but judging by your history on this forum, that would just be a lie. You're the only one who got the vet argument, because you said something foolish. I'd love to debate you, but all you can manage is, "war, death, kill em all!" They took our jaaaaabs!

 

[RDU Irish]

So I've been avoiding this subject because I see all of the personal attacks that come out. i think the best thing to come out of this thread was (as usual) OMM's post. I've been a member and reader of this board for a long time but rarely post because of this kinda of stuff. First some background, I'm a physician who has been working in predominantly Muslim East Africa - mainly Kenya, Tanzania, and Somalia. I have had the opportunity to actually do just what you said to many Islamic Somalis, many of which I am sure had terrorist ties and a couple of times this discussion came up when I was fearing for my life (usually involving alcohol, yes some Muslims drink . . . a lot). Their response always was one of confusion. They literally said over and over again, "Why are you here? You are American, you hate Muslims." That was it. It wasn't an argument or discussion, it was a simple statement of fact - "We hate them". I'm sure it's secondary to their education. Saudi and the UAE sponsors schools in the area that are free for Muslims but don't actually teach them anything (I know Three Cups of Tea is bullsh!t but these schools exist at least in Islamic Africa). I'm sure it's also because of the propaganda from the government. I'm sure it's from our involvement or lack of involvement over time in these countries. If we claim to know why they think what they think, we are foolish. All we can do is control what we are able to control.

In the end I think these types of discussions are wonderful and what we need to be doing. However, I also think that when people take extremes in view points and simply go back and forth at each other like we see people do on Fox News and Bill Maher and all of the others that I don't feel like listing, it is worthless. There are valuable points from most of the posters in this thread and I appreciate all of your view points. My most interesting class at ND back in the day and I think the more important discussion that hasn't even been raised really yet, is how do we reconcile all of this with our Catholic beliefs. There is very specific teaching from the church as to what is just and unjust. That is a discussion for another thread I think though.

So how do we fix this? I say disengage and stop wasting money on a lost cause. Keep covert operations and intelligence working though.

 

[mgriff]

Luckily for me, I've spoken with many Afghans, Iraqis and Arab people in general. Mubarak... you bring him up insinuating that we should have done to him what we did with Saddam or vice versa, I assume. I've never heard any Egyptians say as nasty of things about Mubarak as I've heard Iraqis say about Saddam. By the way... why did you join the military?

Okay, and what demographic of Afghan? Was it people in Kabul, Kandahar? They may know what 9-11 is but the vast majority of that country is rural, and in the rural settings many don't know what 9-11 was. Obviously, after ten years, they hear about it, but my main point in that is they had nothing to do with it, didn't know about it and had no hand in it. Many in the rural areas still do not know. I want to know if your experience is different from mine and my wife's.

Do you not see the charges against Mubarak? He was a dictator. We supported him. We paid him. We installed him. We also installed the Shah in Iran and overthew their elected government. That's why Iran hates us. And even then, many Iranians still want good relations with the West, but thye won't stand for all these economic sanctions which could hurt their livelihood.

I joined the military to serve and defend my country. Needless to say my opinions have changed about how our military is being used.

 

[BobD]

I notice you're back with no hard points only your sarcasm. Well it's better than those failing arguments on the other page when you tried to compare the war on terror to a bomb, a million dollars, and your lawn.

Seriously? Bud, your the one that needs a better argument. The people your trying to defend will make an a$$ of you. With or with out U.S. involvement in the middle east they will continue to kill each other and us. Sadly it's all they know and understand. War is always better there than here.

 

[WaveDomer]

And the fact that he's a distinguished professor doesn't matter? Controversy means it must not be a viable source? Simply because you find what it says hard to take in doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe he endorsed it because it's the truth. They are the people looking at the real causes and not some blind stupid, "they hate us cuz we r freeeee" bullshit that everyone bought up to the Iraq war.

Sure it matters. Does it matter that it was rebutted by many others who were professors, (Kennedy School of Government took their seal off the paper) politicians, and more?

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to have this attitude that if we don't agree with you we can't take "hard truths" or as you said above "This thread is full of war mongers who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag." There are a lot of viewpoints out there about a situation which is very fluid. There are various religious sects involved, politics, money, on and on. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

I don't really care if someone says that Israel is influencing our government. It's not some hard truth I can't take. My response is to look at the argument, counter argument, and the source. If it holds up, it holds up to me. If it doesn't then it doesn't.

But I'm done with going back and forth.

 

[RDU Irish]

I joined the military to serve and defend my country. Needless to say my opinions have changed about how our military is being used.

Seeing that reminds me of starting to consider college. My dad suggests looking at West Point or ROTC pointing out the cost/benefit. I look at Clinton playing around Somalia and can't understand what we are fighting for and exactly how it keeps my country free or safe. So I decide to go into debt up to my eyeballs instead and promote Ross Perot wishing my birthday was a few months earlier so I could vote for him.

Oh, those were the days.

 

[irishpat183]

Still nothing intelligent coming out of that brain? Well I wish I could say I was surprised, but judging by your history on this forum, that would just be a lie. You're the only one who got the vet argument, because you said something foolish. I'd love to debate you, but all you can manage is, "war, death, kill em all!" They took our jaaaaabs!

LOL. I'm so far from that you have no idea.....My point remains. I'm not pro war. But I'm also not for letting wackos run loose. I'm with RDU Irish...Keep covert and intelligence and handle it on that level. Because there are areas of the world that no amount of diplomacy would work in.

And you've dropped the "I'm a vet" a few times on this board. And not just in our back and forths...

And I think it's hilarious. My grandfather, Marine vet, decorated and former POW, would pimp you out for making the kinds of comments you are about "being a vet" and the stuff you're saying about how nobody else knows any better than you. He'd put 5 across your eye, then make you buy him a beer.

 

[mgriff]

Sure it matters. Does it matter that it was rebutted by many others who were professors, (Kennedy School of Government took their seal off the paper) politicians, and more?

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to have this attitude that if we don't agree with you we can't take "hard truths" or as you said above "This thread is full of war mongers who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag." There are a lot of viewpoints out there about a situation which is very fluid. There are various religious sects involved, politics, money, on and on. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.

I don't really care if someone says that Israel is influencing our government. It's not some hard truth I can't take. My response is to look at the argument, counter argument, and the source. If it holds up, it holds up to me. If it doesn't then it doesn't.

But I'm done with going back and forth.

That's fine. But the idea that our actions are always benevolent is absolute lunacy. People saying we should be bombing and invading more countries to get a few people while killing thousands are war mongers. If you think we should keep invading countries to get terrorists and killing civilians then I believe you are a war monger. If we would like to acknowledge that there are other paths to be explored as opposed to preemptive war, then that's great and what I'm going for. I'm perfectly fine with you disagreeing with me, but it's kind of difficult to keep everything in check when I'm responding to ten people myself. I'm also talking about this because of the effects on the service members coming home. The suicide rates are astronomical. When are we going to take care of our own and stop sacrificing them?

 

[mgriff]

LOL. I'm so far from that you have no idea.....My point remains. I'm not pro war. But I'm also not for letting wackos run loose. I'm with RDU Irish...Keep covert and intelligence and handle it on that level. Because there are areas of the world that no amount of diplomacy would work in.

And you've dropped the "I'm a vet" a few times on this board. And not just in our back and forths...

And I think it's hilarious. My grandfather, Marine vet, decorated and former POW, would pimp you out for making the kinds of comments you are about "being a vet" and the stuff you're saying about how nobody else knows any better than you. He'd put 5 across your eye, then make you buy him a beer.

Thank your grandfather for his service. You're the only one I demeaned about the vet comment. Other times it was mentioned to accentuate my experience or because someone asked a question, like why I joined. You're making **** up.

You are the ultimate internet tough guy though, truly.

 

[irishpat183]

Okay, and what demographic of Afghan? Was it people in Kabul, Kandahar? They may know what 9-11 is but the vast majority of that country is rural, and in the rural settings many don't know what 9-11 was. Obviously, after ten years, they hear about it, but my main point in that is they had nothing to do with it, didn't know about it and had no hand in it. Many in the rural areas still do not know. I want to know if your experience is different from mine and my wife's.

Do you not see the charges against Mubarak? He was a dictator. We supported him. We paid him. We installed him. We also installed the Shah in Iran and overthew their elected government. That's why Iran hates us. And even then, many Iranians still want good relations with the West, but thye won't stand for all these economic sanctions which could hurt their livelihood.

I joined the military to serve and defend my country. Needless to say my opinions have changed about how our military is being used.

Great point. You share the same opinion about that with alot of my buddies and family members that served. Times have changed. People are picking up on the use of miltary force (lives) for profit.


However, we still need military and we still need to defend ourselves and seek out terrorists and destroy them. Keep in mind I said "terrorists" not other countries.

 

[irishpat183]

Thank your grandfather for his service. You're the only one I demeaned about the vet comment. Other times it was mentioned to accentuate my experience or because someone asked a question, like why I joined. You're making **** up.

You are the ultimate internet tough guy though, truly.

I'm not that tough. But I back it up with my big mouth.

 

[BobD]

I'm taking a lunch break, I'll be back later mgriff :starwars:

 

[mgriff]

Seriously? Bud, your the one that needs a better argument. The people your trying to defend will make an a$$ of you. With or with out U.S. involvement in the middle east they will continue to kill each other and us. Sadly it's all they know and understand. War is always better there than here.

So why are we interjecting ourselves in affairs that we have no business in? Iraq was stable before we invaded. Now it's turning into a civil war. Was Saddam bad, absolutely, but how many civilians are dying or have died during our presence and in the aftermath to come when the Sunnis fight the Shi'a? Sure we were attacked and we have to respond, but why are we bombing Yemen, and Pakistan? Why did we help invade Libya and overthrow Gaddafi when Bush said he was an example of assimilation into the West?

 

[mgriff]

Great point. You share the same opinion about that with alot of my buddies and family members that served. Times have changed. People are picking up on the use of miltary force (lives) for profit.


However, we still need military and we still need to defend ourselves and seek out terrorists and destroy them. Keep in mind I said "terrorists" not other countries.

You're much nicer now. But that's what we are doing. We invaded Iraq to get the terrorists. Now we are bombing Yemen and Pakistan, we bombed Libya. That is viewed as an attack on their sovereignty and it only serves to compound the problem of terrorism. So is it worth it? We got one, but how many more did we create? Is there ever an end? When does it end? How many people have to die before we try alternatives? How many veterans have to commit suicide? It's everywhere. Unfortunately, they take their families with them sometimes. I agree we need to keep ourselves safe, but if we are making ten terrorists for every one we take out, is it worth it?

 

[irishpat183]

You're much nicer now. But that's what we are doing. We invaded Iraq to get the terrorists. Now we are bombing Yemen and Pakistan, we bombed Libya. That is viewed as an attack on their sovereignty and it only serves to compound the problem of terrorism. So is it worth it? We got one, but how many more did we create? Is there ever an end? When does it end? How many people have to die before we try alternatives?

You, my friend, are preaching to the choir. I have no f*cking idea what we or our troops are doing in those dumpster fires.

I agree that there will always be another one in line...that's why the fight against TERRORISM will never end.

And what alternative to you recommend? That goes back to my comment about going over there....There are places where it's too little, too late.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

This is a pointless discussion; one in which I wanted only to say my 2 cents and let the rest of you argue in circles. However, I was baited. My experiences have been different than you and your wife's. I'm not infantry, I've not had to suffer a language barrier in dealing with these people, I have not appeared as hostile to them as those wearing full battle rattle and I've also had the privilege of having many interactions with well-educated Middle Easterners. I will say that I do agree that we have wasted too much money and, even worse, too many lives fighting this fight. I would like to see the US take a step back from policing the world and concentrate on our issues stateside. But, after 9/11, it's going to be hard to convince our leadership that a "proactive military" approach to fighting terrorism and curbing attacks on American soil is unnecessary. Sadly, I feel that we may have reached a point of no return and that it may be too late to rest on our laurels. Continued Middle Eastern presence may be the only thing that prevents another 9/11.

 

[mgriff]

You, my friend, are preaching to the choir. I have no f*cking idea what we or our troops are doing in those dumpster fires.

I agree that there will always be another one in line...that's why the fight against TERRORISM will never end.

And what alternative to you recommend? That goes back to my comment about going over there....There are places where it's too little, too late.

Extricate from the arena. Monitor for attacks for preparation, but we need to improve our image. The Islamic World sees a big aggressive bully in America. We have been messing around in their affairs for 50+ years so the animosity isn't going to go away overnight. We need to improve our relations. Let them in on our economy, it's still the best in the world for now. Trade with them, talk, use diplomacy. We need to be working with the nations where terrorists are present. Win them over, and there will be no where for them to hide and plan. But if we are violating their sovereignty in order to launch strikes or placing sanctions on them, they aren't likely to be receptive to any diplomacy.

Just look at me and you in this thread. Our relationship/banter has gotten better in the last few posts because we are respecting each other and acting friendly. Five posts ago we were insulting each other and acting like idiots. Friendly relations go a long way.

 

[mgriff]

This is a pointless discussion; one in which I wanted only to say my 2 cents and let the rest of you argue in circles. However, I was baited. My experiences have been different than you and your wife's. I'm not infantry, I've not had to suffer a language barrier in dealing with these people, I have not appeared as hostile to them as those wearing full battle rattle and I've also had the privilege of having many interactions with well-educated Middle Easterners. I will say that I do agree that we have wasted too much money and, even worse, too many lives fighting this fight. I would like to see the US take a step back from policing the world and concentrate on our issues stateside. But, after 9/11, it's going to be hard to convince our leadership that a "proactive military" approach to fighting terrorism and curbing attacks on American soil is unnecessary. Sadly, I feel that we may have reached a point of no return and that it may be too late to rest on our laurels. Continued Middle Eastern presence may be the only thing that prevents another 9/11.

Fair enough, I get it, but aren't we simultaneously threatening our national security with our increased presence in the Middle East? I mean, our actions for the last fifty years aren't just going to be wiped out, but when is enough enough? We are right there to kill now, we've played right into their hands. We agree on many points and we mostly agree that we've gotten ourselves into quite a quagmire.

 

[BCSorBust]

So how do we fix this? I say disengage and stop wasting money on a lost cause. Keep covert operations and intelligence working though.

I will answer this question but honestly I'm not going to debate it because just like everyone can love this country, their family, their community as much as the next person, every member of said country, family, community probably has a different idea than the next on how to fix it if it's not working. Most of the time no one is right and no one is wrong.

My thought is education. People in these countries have to pay for their education and very simply they cannot afford it. If there is somehow a universal, basal education it would change the power balance. I'm not sure if this is possible however, because we can't fix our own educational system. I'll leave my thoughts on it at that because I'm not prepared/don't really want to include myself in the debate at hand because from what I have read, it is not the healthiest of discussions.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

My thought is education. People in these countries have to pay for their education and very simply they cannot afford it. If there is somehow a universal, basal education it would change the power balance. I'm not sure if this is possible however, because we can't fix our own educational system. I'll leave my thoughts on it at that because I'm not prepared/don't really want to include myself in the debate at hand because from what I have read, it is not the healthiest of discussions.

It's called the internet, and we're already doing it. Let's just pray Congress doesn't mess that up too with new iterations of SOPA/ PIPA.

 

[DSully1995]

Well for Canadian armed forces education is very difficult w/o constant occupation. The afghan taliban resent female education and will attack schools to prevent it, and i doubt the internet is very accessible in a remote village...

 

[BCSorBust]

Well for Canadian armed forces education is very difficult w/o constant occupation. The afghan taliban resent female education and will attack schools to prevent it, and i doubt the internet is very accessible in a remote village...

Actually the inet is accessible pretty much everywhere. I was where they had no running water or electricity but had perfect inet connection through satellite broadband that normal villagers use. However, no we aren't doing it effectively yet so I'll disagree with the previous poster there. Hopefully with time we can though.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Actually the inet is accessible pretty much everywhere. I was where they had no running water or electricity but had perfect inet connection through satellite broadband that normal villagers use. However, no we aren't doing it effectively yet so I'll disagree with the previous poster there. Hopefully with time we can though.

Doing what effectively? "Educating" the world? I'd argue that all we need to do is ensure the internet remains as free and accessible as possible; the rest will take care of itself.

Note how critical social media has been in the Arab Spring, and many other nascent democratic movements. The internet has made it harder than ever for tyrants and autocrats to maintain control over their people.

I'm not sure how America could actively go about "educating" the world anyway. Aside from basic literacy in one's mother tongue, virtually every decision regarding curriculum and philosophy would be polarizing, and likely lead to claims of propagandizing.

 

[Black Irish]

Mgriff:

I think incorporating more specifics may help. You keep throwing out broad assertions but not many specifics. You say "they" hate us because we are a bully who is violtating national sovreignty, eschewing diplomacy, and have been meddling in their affairs for 50 years.

What is the difference between sound foreign policy and meddling and can you cite an example of each?
The U.S. used to be on good terms with the militants in Afghanistan when they were battling the Soviet Union, but then they turned into Al Queda and started launching terrorist attacks. Are we culpable there?
What do we do about sovreign nations that do not have the capacity or the desire to eliminate the Al Queda networks in their midst? Wait and hope for the best?

 

[irishpat183]

Doing what effectively? "Educating" the world? I'd argue that all we need to do is ensure the internet remains as free and accessible as possible; the rest will take care of itself.

Note how critical social media has been in the Arab Spring, and many other nascent democratic movements. The internet has made it harder than ever for tyrants and autocrats to maintain control over their people.

I'm not sure how America could actively go about "educating" the world anyway. Aside from basic literacy in one's mother tongue, virtually every decision regarding curriculum and philosophy would be polarizing, and likely lead to claims of propagandizing.

We shouldn't. We shouldn't be playing "world police" so why must we play "world educator"? And it's not like that wouldn't have costs involved. Every politican in Washington would suddenly be sponsoring a country in the name of "educating the world"....sheesh.

And could you imagine the claims??? Good grief.

I say take care of us and make sure that American people are well educated. That's good enough for me.

 

[BestBIrish47]

My reaction to what this thread turned into...

 

[BobD]

Have you guys seen the state of our public school system? American's should never say we are going to educate other countries, they might ask for references.

 

[Black Irish]

Have you guys seen the state of our public school system? American's should never say we are going to educate other countries, they might ask for references.

Especially with erroneously placed commas, as in "American's."


(Nothing personal man, but you made it too easy).

 

[BobD]

Especially with erroneously placed commas, as in "American's."


(Nothing personal man, but you made it too easy).

I am an example to prove my point : )