Score one for the good guys

[mgriff]

No, I'm 30. But I have great skin.

And I didn't say for "no reason"...I said my reasons. They hate the way we live. They hate our culture. Its deeper than just your "well, we deserve it" reasoning.

Tell you what, why don't you go over there and explain all this to a group of terrorist and it will be all peachy. I'm sure they'll understand and forgive us if we just stop all the violence. Make sure you send me a postcard.

<---Veteran. U.S. Army. Airborne Infantry. All The Way. So try and break me down because you don't like what I say. I've served my country honorably. I did everything I was asked to do. Have you served?

The average "terrorist" doesn't hate our culture, which you would know if you bothered to read that. They hate our occupation and collateral damage. They hate our sanctions, they hate our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs and propping up dictators to rule them.

 

[mgriff]

MGriff, that paper might be even more controversial than Scheuer's books. And it's another one that OBL endorsed.

And the fact that he's a distinguished professor doesn't matter? Controversy means it must not be a viable source? Simply because you find what it says hard to take in doesn't mean it's useless. Maybe he endorsed it because it's the truth. They are the people looking at the real causes and not some blind stupid, "they hate us cuz we r freeeee" bullshit that everyone bought up to the Iraq war.

 

[RDU Irish]

I agree with mgriff in practice but not necessarily principle. I fail to see the logic of the EXPENSE incurred relative to that which we claim to protect. We have spent over $300 million per person killed on 9/11. Hate to put a dollar on it, but at some point you have to look at the economics of the matter. Bring 'em all home and let China and Europe worry about it.

Why not use our HUGE deficit as an excuse to fold up and go isolationist for a few years. See how bad everyone has it when the US isn't footing the bill anymore.

 

[mgriff]

I'm not condoning phork's comments per se, but by the same token in the statement highlighted above, when they kill US civilians, haven't they done the same thing to us, yet we don't see US citizens strapping suicide vests and detonating them in crowded civilian spaces or flying commercial airplanes into buildings? No, because we choose to act with our professional military means, doing everything possible to minimize civilian casualties and only seek to eliminate those who bear weapons (i.e rules of engagement). Heck, we even have bombs that are intended to only explode into a confined area so adjacent buildings don't get damaged. Talk about eliminating "blowback"! No other nation comes close to our miliatry in trying to be as surgical as possible to protect innocent civilians. So much so it's built into our military weapons research and design.

And what means did the Irish have to combat British power. India? They can't conventionally fight a war with us. It wouldn't work. That's why the Tamil Tigers and others developed and used terrorism, to achieve their goals without an open conflict where they would certainly lose.

 

[irishpat183]

The difference is, we don't TARGET civilians. Yes, in war civilians are sometimes killed and it's never a good thing...

But as NDBolier said, it's not like US soldiers are walking into bus stations and killing thousands of innocent people on purpose.

Big difference.

 

[mgriff]

The difference is, we don't TARGET civilians. Yes, in war civilians are sometimes killed and it's never a good thing...

But as NDBolier said, it's not like US soldiers are walking into bus stations and killing thousands of innocent people on purpose.

Big difference.

So have you served? Or you don't wanna go there now because you know I'm a vet?

What you fail to realize is that they don't care. Just like you don't care why they attacked us. People are dead so we need to go make other people dead. It's lunacy. What about the bombing campaign in Iraq after the Gulf War? We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

This thread is full of war mongers who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag. At least some of you have the grace to realize that we kill faaaaaar more people than any terrorist has. Those of you who think we should just keep going and killing thousands of innocents for tens of terrorists are looney. We are making more enemies and bankrupting ourselves. You want to fight terrorists, fine. But you don't use preemptive wars to do so. Drone strikes kill civilians too, ask Pakistan. Everyone is going to want to kill us pretty soon.

 

[RDU Irish]

If I walk into a kindergarten class and the little craps all run and start hitting me in the nuts, the only acceptable response is for me to leave the room as quickly as possible. Beating the hell out of all of them would only make my life worse.

mgriff is right, they are acting logically. I believe he is wrong in believing they are capable of knowing or understanding the bigger picture. Between iliteracy, controled media and thousands of years of culture, these folks are incredibly predisposed to violence and terrorism. Power is held through religion in the middle east which is further empowered by creating an evil enemy. Only thing to do there is leave the room.

Did I just call kindergartners terrorists there?

 

[irishpat183]

<---Veteran. U.S. Army. Airborne Infantry. All The Way. So try and break me down because you don't like what I say. I've served my country honorably. I did everything I was asked to do. Have you served?
The average "terrorist" doesn't hate our culture, which you would know if you bothered to read that. They hate our occupation and collateral damage. They hate our sanctions, they hate our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs and propping up dictators to rule them.

That's awesome. Thanks for your service, I wouldn't dare question your service to our country or what you and other service members have sacrificed. I have numerous family members and friends that served. All of which have some class and humility. They don't walk around with the attitude of "I served, what have you done". Don't disrespect other service members with that lame-a$$ attitude. Yeah, you the man.

And you're really gonna tell me that thousands of years of religious differences and culture have NOTHING to do with it?

The conflict with the middle east isn't simply because of "occupation and collateral damage". It's deeper than that. I agree that you make some great points, and it's not that I disagree with you. But there is more too it than just our military operations.

 

[mgriff]

That's awesome. Thanks for your service, I wouldn't dare question your service to our country or what you and other service members have sacrificed. I have numerous family members and friends that served. All of which have some class and humility. They don't walk around with the attitude of "I served, what have you done". Don't disrespect other service members with that lame-a$$ attitude. Yeah, you the man.

And you're really gonna tell me that thousands of years of religious differences and culture have NOTHING to do with it?

The conflict with the middle east isn't simply because of "occupation and collateral damage". It's deeper than that. I agree that you make some great points, and it's not that I disagree with you. But there is more too it than just our military operations.

No, I never once brought up anyone's service until you told me to go over there and try to talk to terrorists. You assumed I hadn't served, and I wanted to make you realize what a dummy you are for saying something not knowing what I've done or where I've been. So look back through the thread if you can use that minute brain of yours to find all my comments, and you'll see I never once belittled anyone for not serving. That would be too easy. People would feel guilty but I'm not trying to make everyone feel guilty, only you. I want to educate people, not fight. But since you arent' very good at debating, you act like a complete tool like you do in most threads on this board.

You can't think of anything to say to my points so you just tell me to walk into Afghanistan or Iraq when I did my time. You haven't. My wife also just got back from a year in Afghanistan. She's still active duty. She agrees with my foreign policy. So while anyone is free to disagree, debate me, don't use childish tactics.

Where were the Islamic terrorists who hate us in the 18th century? The 19th? The early 20th? They weren't attacking us because we weren't interfering in their affairs. The rise of their hatred is in conjunction with our meddling in Middle Eastern affairs post-World War II.

 

[RDU Irish]

And the "did you serve" line is pure sh!t. Get off your horse and make your argument. Invalidating other people because they did not serve in the military is garbage.

You are making your arguments well, no need to get that way.

 

[irishpat183]

So have you served? Or you don't wanna go there now because you know I'm a vet?

What you fail to realize is that they don't care. Just like you don't care why they attacked us. People are dead so we need to go make other people dead. It's lunacy. What about the bombing campaign in Iraq after the Gulf War? We killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

This thread is full of war mongers who can't think their way out of a wet paper bag. At least some of you have the grace to realize that we kill faaaaaar more people than any terrorist has. Those of you who think we should just keep going and killing thousands of innocents for tens of terrorists are looney. We are making more enemies and bankrupting ourselves. You want to fight terrorists, fine. But you don't use preemptive wars to do so. Drone strikes kill civilians too, ask Pakistan. Everyone is going to want to kill us pretty soon.

So because you're a vet....there is no discussion? Please stop with that. Nobody is questioning that.


I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm simply saying that when a guy like this is taken off the board, I'm ok with it. I never said I was for war.

And while we've done some really...really...bad things. I'm all for gettting rid of terrorists. And I'll keep it at that.

 

[In Lou I Trust]

I have no desire to debate the most non-debatable topic in history... which came first, the chicken or the egg? War has been going on since the world began; that's life. However, if you believe that Iraqis enjoyed being ruled by a tyrant, you've never spoken with the ones who lived it. If you believe that Afghanistan was better before we arrived, you're naive. And if you believe that the Afghan people don't know what 9/11 is... you're an idiot. Have we, on numerous occasions, overstepped our boundaries? Yes. If we just let the rest of the world deal with its own issues would it be a better place? No. There are constant atrocities that require our intervention, unfortunately. Some of them only require a military presence and other times worse, military involvement. Casualties of war are an unfortunate but unavoidable result of our enemy's cowardice; not a result of our overzealous actions.

BTW: I am not pro-war.

 

[mgriff]

And the "did you serve" line is pure sh!t. Get off your horse and make your argument. Invalidating other people because they did not serve in the military is garbage.

You are making your arguments well, no need to get that way.

I know I'm making my points. He told me to go over there and talk to them, having no idea who I am or what I've done. So I called him on his bullshit. No one else in this thread who disagreed with me before him had that thrown in their face. Maybe he should check himself and I won't have to make him look like an idiot. Read what he said before you correct me.

 

[RDU Irish]

So because you're a vet....there is no discussion? Please stop with that. Nobody is questioning that.


I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm simply saying that when a guy like this is taken off the board, I'm ok with it. I never said I was for war.

And while we've done some really...really...bad things. I'm all for gettting rid of terrorists. And I'll keep it at that.

(interjecting self in middle of someone else's argument)

Exactly. If we are going to engage, DO IT AND DON'T HOLD BACK. I just don't understand why these guys aren't disappearing into the night, never to be seen again. Do we have no good assassins on the payroll Uncle Sam? This half a$$, ten year war garbage is too expensive. Strike back fast and furious when attacked or with overriding intelligence but don't hang around half a generation trying to make friends. Ain't gonna happen.

 

[RDU Irish]

I know I'm making my points. He told me to go over there and talk to them, having no idea who I am or what I've done. So I called him on his bullshit. No one else in this thread who disagreed with me before him had that thrown in their face. Maybe he should check himself and I won't have to make him look like an idiot. Read what he said before you correct me.

Just resist the temptation next time. It drags you down more than him. (said as if I have any authority on anything)

 

[mgriff]

So because you're a vet....there is no discussion? Please stop with that. Nobody is questioning that.


I'm not even disagreeing with you. I'm simply saying that when a guy like this is taken off the board, I'm ok with it. I never said I was for war.

And while we've done some really...really...bad things. I'm all for gettting rid of terrorists. And I'll keep it at that.

I said absolutely nothign about no discussion, I've been here discussing it for three pages. I want to discuss it. I don't want ignorant people like you telling me to go over there as if I have no idea what I'm talking about. As a vet and now an active duty spouse I have first hand knowledge, better than most. So when you come with some stupid comment like, "why don't you go over there and try to talk to the terrorists" you are talking out your ***, so I called you on it. Debate that fine.

 

[irishpat183]

No, I never once brought up anyone's service until you told me to go over there and try to talk to terrorists. You assumed I hadn't served, and I wanted to make you realize what a dummy you are for saying something not knowing what I've done or where I've been. So look back through the thread if you can use that minute brain of yours to find all my comments, and you'll see I never once belittled anyone for not serving. That would be too easy. People would feel guilty but I'm not trying to make everyone feel guilty, only you. I want to educate people, not fight. But since you arent' very good at debating, you act like a complete tool like you do in most threads on this board.

You can't think of anything to say to my points so you just tell me to walk into Afghanistan or Iraq when I did my time. You haven't. My wife also just got back from a year in Afghanistan. She's still active duty. She agrees with my foreign policy. So while anyone is free to disagree, debate me, don't use childish tactics.

It was sarcasm. I thought that you'd be bright enough to pick that up. My point was that we wouldn't be very well recieved with a diplomatic approach at this point...At no point, did I actually think that you would agree to walk into the middle east and take your argument to them.

And when the hell did I ever assume that you didn't serve? No where in my comments did I even hint at that.

 

[irishpat183]

I said absolutely nothign about no discussion, I've been here discussing it for three pages. I want to discuss it. I don't want ignorant people like you telling me to go over there as if I have no idea what I'm talking about. As a vet and now an active duty spouse I have first hand knowledge, better than most. So when you come with some stupid comment like, "why don't you go over there and try to talk to the terrorists" you are talking out your ***, so I called you on it. Debate that fine.

Nobody ever said you didn't know what you were talking about...

Talk about being on the defense...well...I guess it fits with your philosophy, LOL.

I wonder what the over/under is for times you're going to mention "I"m a vet"?

Dude, I get it. You're a vet.

 

[mgriff]

I have no desire to debate the most non-debatable topic in history... which came first, the chicken or the egg? War has been going on since the world began; that's life. However, if you believe that Iraqis enjoyed being ruled by a tyrant, you've never spoken with the ones who lived it. If you believe that Afghanistan was better before we arrived, you're naive. And if you believe that the Afghan people don't know what 9/11 is... you're an idiot. Have we, on numerous occasions, overstepped our boundaries? Yes. If we just let the rest of the world deal with its own issues would it be a better place? No. There are constant atrocities that require our intervention, unfortunately. Some of them only require a military presence and other times worse, military involvement. Casualties of war are an unfortunate but unavoidable result of our enemy's cowardice; not a result of our overzealous actions.

BTW: I am not pro-war.

Sure sounds like you're pro-war. How many Afghans have you talked to? They don't know what 9-11 is. They don't have news like we do. Still, to this day, after 10+ years in their country, many still have no idea what it is or was. They only know that we are there and many are happy. Many are also upset and want us out of their country, so they fight us and we call them terrorists. What would you do if someone invaded our country? You'd fight and call yourself a patriot.

What do you call propping up a dictator in Mubarak for decades? What about the bombing of Iraq for a decade after the Gulf War resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths? That number alone is more than the victims of 9-11. THe solution is to kill more people and make more enemies?

 

[irishpat183]

(interjecting self in middle of someone else's argument)

Exactly. If we are going to engage, DO IT AND DON'T HOLD BACK. I just don't understand why these guys aren't disappearing into the night, never to be seen again. Do we have no good assassins on the payroll Uncle Sam? This half a$$, ten year war garbage is too expensive. Strike back fast and furious when attacked or with overriding intelligence but don't hang around half a generation trying to make friends. Ain't gonna happen.

Yes! If you're gonna go to war....GO TO WAR. WIPE THEM OFF THE PLANET. Otherwise, I'm all for just doing some assassin style work and taking out the nut jobs

 

[BobD]

So many people in the Middle East hate the U.S. and it's policies so they continue to move here in droves because we suck.

 

[mgriff]

Tell you what, why don't you go over there and explain all this to a group of terrorist and it will be all peachy. I'm sure they'll understand and forgive us if we just stop all the violence. Make sure you send me a postcard.

This is what you said numb nuts. As if I don't know what the climate is like over there. That's why I threw it in your face. Don't tell me to go somewhere you have no clue about. I've got my experience, you don't, so I called you on it. Don't be mad because you can't debate and talk about things you have no grasp on.

 

[BCSorBust]

No, I'm 30. But I have great skin.

And I didn't say for "no reason"...I said my reasons. They hate the way we live. They hate our culture. Its deeper than just your "well, we deserve it" reasoning.

Tell you what, why don't you go over there and explain all this to a group of terrorist and it will be all peachy. I'm sure they'll understand and forgive us if we just stop all the violence. Make sure you send me a postcard.

So I've been avoiding this subject because I see all of the personal attacks that come out. i think the best thing to come out of this thread was (as usual) OMM's post. I've been a member and reader of this board for a long time but rarely post because of this kinda of stuff. First some background, I'm a physician who has been working in predominantly Muslim East Africa - mainly Kenya, Tanzania, and Somalia. I have had the opportunity to actually do just what you said to many Islamic Somalis, many of which I am sure had terrorist ties and a couple of times this discussion came up when I was fearing for my life (usually involving alcohol, yes some Muslims drink . . . a lot). Their response always was one of confusion. They literally said over and over again, "Why are you here? You are American, you hate Muslims." That was it. It wasn't an argument or discussion, it was a simple statement of fact - "We hate them". I'm sure it's secondary to their education. Saudi and the UAE sponsors schools in the area that are free for Muslims but don't actually teach them anything (I know Three Cups of Tea is bullsh!t but these schools exist at least in Islamic Africa). I'm sure it's also because of the propaganda from the government. I'm sure it's from our involvement or lack of involvement over time in these countries. If we claim to know why they think what they think, we are foolish. All we can do is control what we are able to control.

In the end I think these types of discussions are wonderful and what we need to be doing. However, I also think that when people take extremes in view points and simply go back and forth at each other like we see people do on Fox News and Bill Maher and all of the others that I don't feel like listing, it is worthless. There are valuable points from most of the posters in this thread and I appreciate all of your view points. My most interesting class at ND back in the day and I think the more important discussion that hasn't even been raised really yet, is how do we reconcile all of this with our Catholic beliefs. There is very specific teaching from the church as to what is just and unjust. That is a discussion for another thread I think though.

 

[mgriff]

So many people in the Middle East hate the U.S. and it's policies so they continue to move here in droves because we suck.

I notice you're back with no hard points only your sarcasm. Well it's better than those failing arguments on the other page when you tried to compare the war on terror to a bomb, a million dollars, and your lawn.

 

[BobD]

And what means did the Irish have to combat British power. India? They can't conventionally fight a war with us. It wouldn't work. That's why the Tamil Tigers and others developed and used terrorism, to achieve their goals without an open conflict where they would certainly lose.

"Conventionally" who could fight a war with us? Terrorist are like kidnappers, once you start negotiating with them, you've lost.

 

[RDU Irish]

I have no desire to debate the most non-debatable topic in history... which came first, the chicken or the egg? War has been going on since the world began; that's life. However, if you believe that Iraqis enjoyed being ruled by a tyrant, you've never spoken with the ones who lived it. If you believe that Afghanistan was better before we arrived, you're naive. And if you believe that the Afghan people don't know what 9/11 is... you're an idiot. Have we, on numerous occasions, overstepped our boundaries? Yes. If we just let the rest of the world deal with its own issues would it be a better place? No. There are constant atrocities that require our intervention, unfortunately. Some of them only require a military presence and other times worse, military involvement. Casualties of war are an unfortunate but unavoidable result of our enemy's cowardice; not a result of our overzealous actions.

BTW: I am not pro-war.

The best way to avoid war is to not start one. However, we have been at war for decades and only until 9/11 did we finally feel the need to engage. BGIF illustrated the list of assaults by terrorists on Western civilization and mgriff has documented Western civilization's assaults on goat herders and muslims living in deserts. At the end of the day, the IRR on this investment looks horribly negative to me and I would rather self insure losses which may go up or down as a result of a change to passivity. Since we have never been passive, it is impossible to know what the response would be to that approach. I do know that guarilla warfare is nearly impossible to defeat on foreign soil and can be waged for a pittance. Its been true for centuries and is one reason we are American and not Brittish.

I can say this, a bunch of bitter nuts hiding in caves plotting our demise at the hands of our own technology is an unavoidable cost of doing business in an increasingly globalized world.

Still no response, commentary on the cost per life spent to seek retribution for 9/11?

 

[mgriff]

So I've been avoiding this subject because I see all of the personal attacks that come out. i think the best thing to come out of this thread was (as usual) OMM's post. I've been a member and reader of this board for a long time but rarely post because of this kinda of stuff. First some background, I'm a physician who has been working in predominantly Muslim East Africa - mainly Kenya, Tanzania, and Somalia. I have had the opportunity to actually do just what you said to many Islamic Somalis, many of which I am sure had terrorist ties and a couple of times this discussion came up when I was fearing for my life (usually involving alcohol, yes some Muslims drink . . . a lot). Their response always was one of confusion. They literally said over and over again, "Why are you here? You are American, you hate Muslims." That was it. It wasn't an argument or discussion, it was a simple statement of fact - "We hate them". I'm sure it's secondary to their education. Saudi and the UAE sponsors schools in the area that are free for Muslims but don't actually teach them anything (I know Three Cups of Tea is bullsh!t but these schools exist at least in Islamic Africa). I'm sure it's also because of the propaganda from the government. I'm sure it's from our involvement or lack of involvement over time in these countries. If we claim to know why they think what they think, we are foolish. All we can do is control what we are able to control.

In the end I think these types of discussions are wonderful and what we need to be doing. However, I also think that when people take extremes in view points and simply go back and forth at each other like we see people do on Fox News and Bill Maher and all of the others that I don't feel like listing, it is worthless. There are valuable points from most of the posters in this thread and I appreciate all of your view points. My most interesting class at ND back in the day and I think the more important discussion that hasn't even been raised really yet, is how do we reconcile all of this with our Catholic beliefs. There is very specific teaching from the church as to what is just and unjust. That is a discussion for another thread I think though.

You and OMM for posts of the thread. Well stated.

 

[mgriff]

"Conventionally" who could fight a war with us? Terrorist are like kidnappers, once you start negotiating with them, you've lost.

No one could conventionally fight a war with us, which is why they don't do it. Terrorism is using terror to achieve your goals, which for Islamic terrorists is us off the Arabian peninsula and not getting involved in their affairs. So the British and the Irish should still be at war? They should never try and make peace? Just keep killing each other? That's your solution? You're smarter than this, man, I know you are.

 

[irishpat183]

You and OMM for posts of the thread. Well stated.

You forgot to mention that you're a vet.....

 

[phork]

IF YOU DON'T WANT YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY COLLATERALLY KILLED THEN DON'T BE A BOMBING JERK.

Vicious circle McGriff, sadly you aren't listening to anyone else and forcing your thoughts and ideas on all of us because YOU ARE RIGHT AND WE DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.