no.1IrishFan
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The a$$hole in me wants to fight you tooth and nail about this all night(or morning). To be completely honest, I think you and I may agree on more than we both think. First off, I should let you know that I have the utmost respect for you and your wife for serving. I, myself, tried to serve in the Marines, but, 1 dumb decision as an 18 year old kid thwarted that, even though I attempted to get a waiver. All I know is that I wanted to help and protect innocent people, that's probably why I became a paramedic. At the end of the day though, I can't see a day coming when I excuse terrorist activity because of our past/present imperfections as a nation. No doubt, we've done some shady things, but what is adequate penance? I guess I judge my acceptance or disapproval of our actions based on our intent. I don't ever think our intent has been to intentionally harm innocent people. That, to me, is what makes our reactions to terrorist activity acceptable.
FLDomer
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This goes back to way before there was a United States. The Crusades. This a Christian Muslim thing IMO and since we a country founded on Christian values it makes since we are a target. And y'all here could argue forever on the topic because obviously the fight has been going on much longer than we have been around. It's all about "who fired the 1st shot?"....we didn't just randomly start bombing these countries, they welcome and allow criminals to walk around freely and in some cases even support em, well **** em
notredomer23
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Yup. This has nothing to do with the United States. You can see their hatred of the United States all the way back to the barbary wars. They hate the West and always have. You can label it on the crusades, the battle of Vienna, the battle of Tours, whatever, they will always hate the West. Sadly the only way that Radical Islam will ever be expelled is if they get their hands on a nuke because you know if that happens we are going to royally **** any single country harboring terrorists from said group
G
Grahambo
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I see this getting out of hand quickly.
There will never be peace. Evil exists in this world, always have and always will until He returns (my Christian belief). Evil also must be dealt with. I believe we have an obligation to protect those that can't protect themselves around the world. Mgriff, I absolutely have no qualms or a problem with what you said. I completely respect it and would never question your belief. We just happen to disagree on this particular subject, nothing more and nothing less.
I didn't serve in Iraq or Afghanistan but I did serve in Africa and "took care of business". I'm also majoring in international relations so I have studied foreign policy both past and present. I think we will ultimately agree to disagree.
There will never be peace. Evil exists in this world, always have and always will until He returns (my Christian belief). Evil also must be dealt with. I believe we have an obligation to protect those that can't protect themselves around the world. Mgriff, I absolutely have no qualms or a problem with what you said. I completely respect it and would never question your belief. We just happen to disagree on this particular subject, nothing more and nothing less.
I didn't serve in Iraq or Afghanistan but I did serve in Africa and "took care of business". I'm also majoring in international relations so I have studied foreign policy both past and present. I think we will ultimately agree to disagree.
kmoose
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Great list, yet you still fail to acknowledge that collateral damage from our strikes is a concept known as blowback. What created the Al Qaeda terrorists? Our own foreign policy decisions which are perpetuated from administration to administration.
So we are going to bomb all those countries? That's the solution? Bomb them all, kill thousands of civilians and create even more of a threat to our national security? You think our actions have no consequences?
I've earned my right to voice my opinion on this matter, and if it differs with your world view, I'm very sorry. Wake up, why don't you wake up and see that all our foreign policy does is incite hatred for us and put us at more of a risk. Iraq and Afghanistan? The first had the second largest amount of oil reserves and no ties to terrorism. Afghanistan? Bounty of Rare Earths Discovered in Afghanistan | Rare Earth Elements & Minerals | Raw Materials for Modern Technologies, Innovation | Lanthanum, Cerium & Neodymium | LiveScience We won't be leaving there until we can contract that out and secure the metals so China's monopoly is broken. The people of Afghanistan have no ****ing idea what Sept. 11th even is yet we are creating a multitude of terrorists in that country from collateral damage and our damaging economic policies. We drive farmers into the Taliban because we kill their crops yet heroin production is at an all time high since the invasion. Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan Excuse me if I think our boys and my brothers are being wasted for profit and a flawed foreign policy. We aren't the America of World War II anymore. We are Britain during colonialism.
Stick to football BGIF, you're better at it. Tell me to wake up? Buddy I've got a better view of this than most, and I realize there are plenty of other veterans on here who may disagree with me, but that doesn't make my stance unreasonable. Just look at all donations from active duty military to the one peace candidate. You sit on your high horse here and act like you know everything there is to know; you don't. Your opinion and stances are not the end all be all and if you disagree, maybe you should debate instead of telling people to wake up, as if your stance is the only reasonable or logical one.
They look like that every quarter high speed. Everyone wants to honor the troops, how about listening to us? Every service member may not agree with this foreign policy, but a whole lot do, much more than those of any other candidate.
Are you serious with this "no ties to terrorism" crap? Hussein was absolutely known to finance and harbor terrorists. Just because we couldn't link him to the 9/11 hijackers, that doesn't mean that he "had no ties to terrorism". Stick with college football, you're much better at it.
Old Man Mike
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Lawrence Kohlberg determined by a lot of study that there were six levels of moral development. The first was that of a child. Basically it was "no clue, but concern about what authority [usually Mom and Dad] will think and do". Stage two was a grown-up who never gets past that ego-centric child stage. It's all about "me" and what I can get away with. Authority [usually "The Law"] is all that keeps these self-centered individuals in line. These people will scream that they have rights, but will do everything they can to do get out of doing anything to support the body politic which protects those rights. The concept of moral duty even good citizenship is alien. Stage three is the person who realizes that the world's too big and complicated for them to go it alone, and so become a friendly joiner of something. They have soft loyalty to that, but little real conviction. [at least to begin with].
Now we come to the stages which fuel this discussion and most of the world's problems. Stage fours are persons who give themselves into some organization or cause wholeheartedly, submerging much of themselves in the process. This can be a religious dogma: "Convert or Die!!". This can be a nation: "My Country, Right or Wrong!!". This can be a business: "What's good for General Motors is good for the Country!!". This can be a street gang; this can be even a football team, in particularly trivial shrinkages of ones priorities.
When that larger entity is attacked, either in "discussion" or in the physical, the stage four "moralist" regards this attack as having the most massive significance and wants to strike back to annihilate the threat. This striking back, for the Stage Four, does not stop to consider the longer range consequences [much], but merely the need for a rapid annihilation to protect the "integrity" of ones chosen macro-self or ones beliefs. In this, a Stage Four is just like a Stage Two, but with a larger Sacred Cow than just oneself. The Sacred Cow has become part of the intimate definition of oneself.
Islamic religious fanatics are clearly stage fours. So are "Don't tread on me !!" American super-patriots. Both see themselves as "Warriors for the Right". Between such persons there is no common ground. Is there any solution??
Usually not. Because it is such individuals who naturally gather the worldly power unto themselves to protect the chosen cherished macro-self. The only possible solutions [other than extermination of the viability of the macro-selves] lie in Kohlberg stage fives and sixes. A Stage Five person is a person who has appreciation and loyalty to the macro-organization within which he/she resides, but only to a point. That person refuses to merely strike out precipitously without an attempt at least to discover what truly is going on. That mind-set requires the thought, sincerely, that it is just possible that oneself is wrong. Once honestly trying to understand the precise situation [rarely falling prey to generalities], that individual may attempt discussion before physical violence, or very select violence before indiscriminate violence. In short, a Kohlberg Stage Five will often attempt diplomacy or at least broadly thought through strategy. Stage Fours usually consider such behavior "weak" and irresponsible, while the Stage Fives see four behavior as reckless, immoral, and completely irresponsible. And thus we have wars of fact, and wars of words on IE.
Stage Six?? Jesus Christ. Or some of us on our best days. Try to actually love somebody who is not yourself, nor even your friend. Naturally such a philosophy plays no role in the "real world". That's why the "real world" sucks so much.
Now we come to the stages which fuel this discussion and most of the world's problems. Stage fours are persons who give themselves into some organization or cause wholeheartedly, submerging much of themselves in the process. This can be a religious dogma: "Convert or Die!!". This can be a nation: "My Country, Right or Wrong!!". This can be a business: "What's good for General Motors is good for the Country!!". This can be a street gang; this can be even a football team, in particularly trivial shrinkages of ones priorities.
When that larger entity is attacked, either in "discussion" or in the physical, the stage four "moralist" regards this attack as having the most massive significance and wants to strike back to annihilate the threat. This striking back, for the Stage Four, does not stop to consider the longer range consequences [much], but merely the need for a rapid annihilation to protect the "integrity" of ones chosen macro-self or ones beliefs. In this, a Stage Four is just like a Stage Two, but with a larger Sacred Cow than just oneself. The Sacred Cow has become part of the intimate definition of oneself.
Islamic religious fanatics are clearly stage fours. So are "Don't tread on me !!" American super-patriots. Both see themselves as "Warriors for the Right". Between such persons there is no common ground. Is there any solution??
Usually not. Because it is such individuals who naturally gather the worldly power unto themselves to protect the chosen cherished macro-self. The only possible solutions [other than extermination of the viability of the macro-selves] lie in Kohlberg stage fives and sixes. A Stage Five person is a person who has appreciation and loyalty to the macro-organization within which he/she resides, but only to a point. That person refuses to merely strike out precipitously without an attempt at least to discover what truly is going on. That mind-set requires the thought, sincerely, that it is just possible that oneself is wrong. Once honestly trying to understand the precise situation [rarely falling prey to generalities], that individual may attempt discussion before physical violence, or very select violence before indiscriminate violence. In short, a Kohlberg Stage Five will often attempt diplomacy or at least broadly thought through strategy. Stage Fours usually consider such behavior "weak" and irresponsible, while the Stage Fives see four behavior as reckless, immoral, and completely irresponsible. And thus we have wars of fact, and wars of words on IE.
Stage Six?? Jesus Christ. Or some of us on our best days. Try to actually love somebody who is not yourself, nor even your friend. Naturally such a philosophy plays no role in the "real world". That's why the "real world" sucks so much.
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irishpat183
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Earth to mgrill....while I am a fellow individual freedom lover who also knows we have a serious "world police" attitude that needs to stop, I also understand the importance in getting rid of these scumbags that want to hurt OUR citizens. And I will support that, and every other man hunt for these guys.
And those countries you mentioned hate us. War or not. They hate our way of life. They hate our beliefs. So us going after the bad guys doesn't matter either way. I'd rather get the bad guy and they still hate us, then not get him...and they still hate us.
BobD
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I'd be willing to bet the total amount of money represented by this chart (Mgriffs military donation pie chart) is less than $250,000 and if you looked up some current statistics, Obama is probably getting more than the other candidates now.
It has to be a little amusing and a bit comical to the bad guys that some Americans will cast blame on each other and almost try to justify the horrific acts committed by terrorist.
Everyones entitled to their opinion, but I hope no one believes these scumbags will ever go away by cowering to them and trying to pass it off as if we've suddenly become elightened to the cruel reality of collateral damage.
Terrorist are cockroaches.
It has to be a little amusing and a bit comical to the bad guys that some Americans will cast blame on each other and almost try to justify the horrific acts committed by terrorist.
Everyones entitled to their opinion, but I hope no one believes these scumbags will ever go away by cowering to them and trying to pass it off as if we've suddenly become elightened to the cruel reality of collateral damage.
Terrorist are cockroaches.
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irishpat183
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Nothing we could ever do, no amount of money, no amount of peaceful talks and cease-fires can ever get that part of the world to respect us...much less like us.
Now some can blame us and our way of life for that....but it's our way of life. And compared to getting stoned in the streets (by rocks...LOL) and having beautiful women like Kate Upton covered from head to toe...I'll gladly take our way of life anyday of the week and some ridicule from those third world sh*tholes.
Call me infidel all you want while I'm enjoying internet porn, bacon, and cold beers. I can live with that.
Now some can blame us and our way of life for that....but it's our way of life. And compared to getting stoned in the streets (by rocks...LOL) and having beautiful women like Kate Upton covered from head to toe...I'll gladly take our way of life anyday of the week and some ridicule from those third world sh*tholes.
Call me infidel all you want while I'm enjoying internet porn, bacon, and cold beers. I can live with that.
RDU Irish
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One of my first bosses once told me "Being right isn't always enough." He was right. Sometimes you are best off eating a sh!t sandwich instead of throwing it back in someone's face. Our collective ego got us into a mess and our collective "conscience" won't let us approach the "war" properly. Isreal would (will) hit and run when the time comes. They won't hang around to sing kumbia and try to get everyone to like them. Ain't going to happen so stop trying!
Now consider if we had given each of the 3000 (or so) 911 victim families $100 million each and then spend another $200 billion on rebuilding NYC ASAP we would only be halfway to the $1 trillion spent on the wars. Economically speaking, turning the other cheek kicks some serious arse.
So Mr. President. Should we spend $500 billion here in the US or $1 trillion overseas and more than triple the body count to US citizens? Actually, since I am cheap I would only give victims $10 million and cut my cost in half.
And I would de-fund the United Nations and all foreign aid, especially food and medical "relief" and "aid." Let the rest of the world actually see how awful we are for a few years. That is what biting the hand that feeds you should get.
Now consider if we had given each of the 3000 (or so) 911 victim families $100 million each and then spend another $200 billion on rebuilding NYC ASAP we would only be halfway to the $1 trillion spent on the wars. Economically speaking, turning the other cheek kicks some serious arse.
So Mr. President. Should we spend $500 billion here in the US or $1 trillion overseas and more than triple the body count to US citizens? Actually, since I am cheap I would only give victims $10 million and cut my cost in half.
And I would de-fund the United Nations and all foreign aid, especially food and medical "relief" and "aid." Let the rest of the world actually see how awful we are for a few years. That is what biting the hand that feeds you should get.
IrishinSyria
In truth lies victory
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As I'm currently serving and getting ready to deploy to Afghanistan, I'll keep my thoughts short. The benefits of "Pax Americana" to the world, and to the United States, far outweigh the costs. In the years since World War II the world has become a safer and wealthier place, and an aggressive American foreign policy is directly tied to this. That being said, the issues raised in this thread are real- there are negative consequences to American foreign policy as well. The best we can do is be vigilant and leave as small of a footprint as appropriate.
Don't think we should ever consider a killing as an unmitigated victory- at best a necessary evil in the defense of peace, prosperity, stability, and American power.
Don't think we should ever consider a killing as an unmitigated victory- at best a necessary evil in the defense of peace, prosperity, stability, and American power.
IrishinSyria
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Hey, I work for a living...
BobD
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For some reason every time someone says that, it makes me think of a this West Point Lieutenant we had for awhile, he was always getting lost, one time he tried to wear tennis shoes under rain boots on a 20 mile force march and he also lost a crate full of Law Missles (seriously, he really did, we found them) off the back of his jeep.
Probably because it was so much work preventing him from getting us killed along with keeping him alive and out of trouble.
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WaveDomer
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Saying that American actions create terrorists is kind of true, but in a twisted way. If you have the willingness and time, read The Looming Tower by Lawrence Wright. It chronicles the history of Al Qaeda. AQ would not exist without OBL and Zawahiri. Before AQ most terrorism was narrow in scope and geography. But Zawahiri was influenced by Sayyid Qutb, an Egyptian who studied in Colorado. He thought it was impossible for true Islam to exist in a modern world. Zawahiri mentors OBL and OBL widens the war and thinks he can attack America because there is a presence in the Middle East.
So you have OBL and Zawahiri who contort things in order to justify their actions. Zawahiri even twists things to justify killing innocents and using suicide which the Koran is against. So while America has made mistakes, you can't blame America for men like OBL and Zawahiri contorting things to justify terrorism.
So you have OBL and Zawahiri who contort things in order to justify their actions. Zawahiri even twists things to justify killing innocents and using suicide which the Koran is against. So while America has made mistakes, you can't blame America for men like OBL and Zawahiri contorting things to justify terrorism.
mgriff
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No he did not harbor terrorists, at all.
9/11 panel sees no Iraq-al-Qaida link - US news - Security - msnbc.com
Hussein's Iraq and al Qaeda not linked, Pentagon says - CNN
mgriff
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Amazon.com: Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (9781400063178): Robert Pape: Books
Read this book. Our actions absolutely create terrorists. You know that we bankrolled ***** and Saddam and gave them weapons in the 70's and 80's, right?
mgriff
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Those countries don't hate us for our way of life, what are you, five? They sit over there hating people in a far off land for no reason? That's a very immature comment. As I said, they hate us because of our foreign policy, sanctions, and bombings on targets in the Middle East for 50+ years. You know we overthrew the elected government of Iran because the new leader was not pro-West and wanted oil profits to go to Iran and not to foreign companies, right?
Amazon.com: Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism (9781400063178): Robert Pape: Books
Read this book and come talk to me
mgriff
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You really should read about the motivations of terrorists and the 9-11 Commission Report. We were attacked because of our actions in the Islamic world for 50+ years. That doesn't excuse the attacks, but continuing the same policies which precipitated the attacks is foolhardy. We fought back when we were attacked, why do you think other people won't? You think they care that we think we are acting in the best interests of the world? No, they know our sanctions and bombings deprive them of prosperity and kills their citizens. We propped up Mubarak in Egypt but Saddam had to go. Both were dictators, we just bankrolled one.
mgriff
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Amazon.com: Educating Rudy: The Ron Paul reading list
I would urge those disagreeing with me to read these books. We absolutely create terrorism, and people in other parts of the world don't hate us for our way of life, that's simply foolish. They hate us because of our actions.
I would urge those disagreeing with me to read these books. We absolutely create terrorism, and people in other parts of the world don't hate us for our way of life, that's simply foolish. They hate us because of our actions.
mgriff
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That Pax Americana is best for the world is completely debatable. While many welcome our money and presence, those same people also profess their love for us and plant IEDs at night because they disagree with our occupation of their countries. You can't expect any less, can you? If anyone invaded America we would be the first to grab weapons, should we expect less when we do it to other countries. Look at how we treat other countries and imagine what we would do if they did the same thing to us. We acted aggressively to contain communism, but it's only to preserve our unipolarity at this point, at the cost of hatred across the world and increased threats to our national security.
Stay safe over there.
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mgriff
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http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CGAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lssu.edu%2Ffaculty%2Fjswedene%2FFULBRIGHT_FILES%2FDo_Muslims_hate_Americans.doc&ei=AvmnT7mBG8aTiALemsWTAg&usg=AFQjCNHmMJJXigqV7J-BXQXd2HXm-qzr2Q&sig2=DHiXB1rKATY0v8cIyjg_eg
Why They Hate Us by Laurence M. Vance
Here are some links as to why we are hated abroad.
Why They Hate Us by Laurence M. Vance
Here are some links as to why we are hated abroad.
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BobD
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You seem to have convinced yourself that murder is the fault of whatever motivates or enables the murderer, instead of the murderer being responsible for their actions. If I rob a bank and get caught, with your logic, I should be excused of the crime because my boss didn't pay me enough and the gun store sold me a gun.
mgriff
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It's about motive. I'm not excusing anything, way to deflect away from the point though. Killing people is killing people, but not paying attention to what is inciting this hatred is sophomoric. You can't have it both ways. When we do it it's necessary and for the good of the world, but when others do it to us it's terrorism. That's what we call a double standard, and in the military, we set high standards, not double standards.
Did you read that list? Please do. I realize I'm telling hard truths here, but they are truth. We create terrorists, and you should read everything I've put on here. Our own 9-11 Commission Report and the CIA have said as much. Don't try and attack my character because you can't beat my argument. I've served my country honorably, and I love my country. That's why I have the strong feelings I do, because I've lived this, much more than most. Don't you want to know why countries hate us enough to try and kill our citizens? It's not like they just woke up and went, I'm gonna kill Americans today. They've been living for 50+ years under our policies and watching us meddle in their affairs and kill their citizens. You think people won't respond in kind?
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BobD
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If I have 1 million dollars, a bomb and a terrorist in my yard and I shoot the terrorist, the money, the bomb and me are all safe.
If I have 1 million dollars, a bomb and a terrorist in my yard and I wonder where he got the million dollars, where he got the bomb and what I may have done to bring him to my yard, I'm probably gonna die.
If I have 1 million dollars, a bomb and a terrorist in my yard and I wonder where he got the million dollars, where he got the bomb and what I may have done to bring him to my yard, I'm probably gonna die.
mgriff
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Do you want to come up with poor situational learning tools or debate what I've said? I've left you ample material to refute yet you insist on these poor scenarios. You're not debating anything, you're using hypothetical situations to get you out of an argument you are clearly losing. You haven't read half of what I have on this subject, and short of an IR professor on this board, I doubt anyone has.
The bottom line is that terrorist wants to be on your lawn because of our actions abroad. You think we can use diplomacy at the end of a gun to solve our problems? Real intelligent and enlightened. People are hostile when you invade their countries, it doesn't matter what our justification is.