Russia Invades Ukraine

[Wild Bill]

We nuked Japan, killing over a quarter million people, mostly civilians, and I've never heard anyone seriously question the morality of the bombing.

History is written by the victors.

 

[Crazy Balki]

The “limited information” argument is an interesting one, as is this whole philosophical discussion. It can also be applied to concepts like slavery — which is in the Bible — and other moral concepts. A lot of morality is just purely subjective and human construct. Others will argue that there are certain intuitive “laws of nature” that any empathetic person should recognize.

When Germany did concentration camps, no one involved got a pass. The world basically agreed that if you were mass murdering civilians then “just following orders” doesn’t apply… regardless of what information you have. With something like this, it’s hard to hold rank and file soldiers culpable for engaging military targets. When they target civilian targets, that’s a whole nother story. And obviously every oligarch and military leader should be held accountable here.

I think there's a huge difference between traditional German soldiers and the people who were responsible for rounding up the Jews and ferrying them to their deaths.

While it was common knowledge that these Jews and other "undesirable" groups were being rounded up and sent away, what was happening to them was kept from a majority of the German public and other nations. And even bringing up the question could put you and your family at risk.

Now, some might say that the Germans are cowards for not asking the question of what happened, but I imagine most here are Americans. So it would be very hypocritical for us to be outraged at the Germans for this, while at the same time, we didn't seem too bent out of shape about our government rounding up Asian Americans and putting them in internment camps. Can't imagine many questioned that back then. In hindsight, definitely nowhere near the same thing, but again, most weren't privy to the information, and didn't ask for fear of reprisal.

War is messy and especially nowadays, it's far from a black and white situation. It's frightening how little we truly about how the sausage is made and going down that rabbit hole can oftentimes be an exercise in inducing insanity.

 

[Johannes]

We nuked Japan, killing over a quarter million people, mostly civilians, and I've never heard anyone seriously question the morality of the bombing.

History is written by the victors.

You've seriously never heard anyone question the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

 

[Wild Bill]

You've seriously never heard anyone question the morality of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

Sure it's discussed and then everyone agrees it was the right thing to do bc it saved lives.

Our actions during WW2 are the least criticized of any American war post WW1. I guess that's just my opinion but I'm not sure it's a controversial hot take.

My point still stands, winners dictate the narrative and somehow manage to be the morally superior side of the conflict.

 

[ACamp1900]

We nuked Japan, killing over a quarter million people, mostly civilians, and I've never heard anyone seriously question the morality of the bombing.

History is written by the victors.

Tell me you haven’t spent of much time college campuses without directly telling me you haven’t,…

 

[Wild Bill]

Tell me you haven’t spent of much time college campuses without directly telling me you haven’t,…

I've been to a few ND games.

 

[IrishLax]

Same reason he has done basically nothing for the past year while it was clear Russia was amassing troops to invade Ukraine. They werent moving troops 30k at a time to the border just because. Same reason Afghanistan went down the way it did. This administration is inept. Completely reactive and no leadership and it is costing lives. The fact that the world has for the most part left Ukraine to fend for themselves up until now is shameful.

I’ve got an itchy trigger finger to write like a three paragraph response here but I know there is no chance I’d change your opinion.

Suffice to say Biden is not the guy who tried to withhold $400 million in congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine nor is he the guy who negotiated with the Taliban to leave the country on a ridiculous timeline nor is he the guy who goes out of his way to fellate a warmongering dictator who commissions assassinations of political rivals and journalists. That doesn’t mean there are things Biden can’t do better, but the amount of disingenuous propaganda spun by certain pundits and certain politicians to say “all of this is Biden’s fault” is comical.

 

[IrishLax]

We nuked Japan, killing over a quarter million people, mostly civilians, and I've never heard anyone seriously question the morality of the bombing.

History is written by the victors.

Really? I thought it was pretty widely debated, but that consensus was mainly that a land invasion would’ve cost more lives == justified.

 

[Wild Bill]

Really? I thought it was pretty widely debated, but that consensus was mainly that a land invasion would’ve cost more lives == justified.

Yes that's the story and it's accepted without much serious debate. I guess scholars like acamp stumble upon hard hitting Nagasaki debates more often than plebs like me.

Maybe I missed something along the way but I've never heard it called a war crime or anything of that nature and the conversation usually ends with "it saved lives".

I think our perception of the events would be bit different if the soviets or any other nation dropped those nukes.

Imagine if the same thing happened today and we were told it was done to save lives. Would we simply accept it and move on?

This isn't a WW2 thread and I'm sorry to go on and on. I was simply pointing out that we're quite capable of justifying questionable wartime behavior.

 

[notredomer23]

The Russian Ruble is down 41% so far Monday

 

[ab2cmiller]

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

I’ve got an itchy trigger finger to write like a three paragraph response here but I know there is no chance I’d change your opinion.

Suffice to say Biden is not the guy who tried to withhold $400 million in congressionally approved military aid to Ukraine nor is he the guy who negotiated with the Taliban to leave the country on a ridiculous timeline nor is he the guy who goes out of his way to fellate a warmongering dictator who commissions assassinations of political rivals and journalists. That doesn’t mean there are things Biden can’t do better, but the amount of disingenuous propaganda spun by certain pundits and certain politicians to say “all of this is Biden’s fault” is comical.

There is a reason Bidens approval ratings are hovering in the mid 30% right now on a good day. I am in agreement that this is not all his fault, and wont make it a trump vs Biden thing, but Biden has been underwhelming at best in his first year and I think there are a lot of indicators that say as much. In some instances he was definitely dealt a tough hand, but he hasnt played them well either.

 

[ab2cmiller]

 

[ACamp1900]

Yes that's the story and it's accepted without much serious debate. I guess scholars like acamp stumble upon hard hitting Nagasaki debates more often than plebs like me.

I hope you’re being playful here because that wasn’t my intent at all,… working in higher ed you just get used to the ‘America is always the bad guy’ narratives and the atomic drop is a fav in those circles. It’s just the first thing that came to mind when I read your post is all. I wasn’t attacking…

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Exactly. A response with balanced and reasoned argumentation to IrishLax’s point is unlikely, because the premise of the initial argument was an exercise in bad-faith politics that undermines genuine discussion. Also, accusing others of “using drugs” for differing arguments is an automatic red flag.

I dont have any issues with LAX’s response at all. We can agree to disagree, but you clearly didnt read the other discussion thoroughly leading up to the drugs comment. There was no differing argument, dude repeatedly attributed comments and talking points to me that simply didnt exist. The left will be left though, and the right will be right. That much I know for sure.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Not good if true…

 

[TorontoGold]

I dont have any issues with LAX’s response at all. We can agree to disagree, but you clearly didnt read the other discussion thoroughly leading up to the drugs comment. There was no differing argument, dude repeatedly attributed comments and talking points to me that simply didnt exist. The left will be left though, and the right will be right. That much I know for sure.

I asked you to explain the logic behind making this statement - "Im not sure why it wouldnt be reasonable for him to observe something as smart or well timed, while also not supporting it or believing it is just or right."

That's all. Never once did I "bring politics or emotion" into it. You then went on to claim I'm not an adult or that I do drugs. Which is ironic, given your swath of bad faith political arguments in a thread not dedicated for that. Grow up.

 

[Wild Bill]

I hope you’re being playful here because that wasn’t my intent at all,… working in higher ed you just get used to the ‘America is always the bad guy’ narratives and the atomic drop is a fav in those circles. It’s just the first thing that came to mind when I read your post is all. I wasn’t attacking…

I am. Just bantz. Except the pleb part. I really am.

 

[BobbyMac]

Not good if true…

Horrible.

So is this:

 

[GATTACA!]

I hope Ukraine uses one of those nifty drones Turkey lent them and blows one of them up on the pad. Fuck Belarus.

 

[BobbyMac]

I don't hang out in the Political forums too often but this is probably the most on edge I've been at anytime in my life besides the morning of 9-11.

I have a BA in International Policy concentrating on the Soviet Bloc. Got it in '89 so it didn't age well on the shelf. Spooky part for me? My senior thesis was entitled, "Why WWIII will start over The Ukraine and not Israel".

The Belorussian developments today are a very bad sign.

 

[ShamrockOnHelmet]

Even if russia takes Kyiv, there will be an essentially permenant insurgency, similar to our quagmires in Iraq, Afghanistan and vietnam. It won’t end, but I think Putin would be fine with that outcome. His finger only gets close to the button as a scorched-earth last resort if they DON’T take Kyiv soon, and I have hope (maybe naively optimistically so) that a general in the room would fit a round in his temple before letting him hit the button.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

I asked you to explain the logic behind making this statement - "Im not sure why it wouldnt be reasonable for him to observe something as smart or well timed, while also not supporting it or believing it is just or right."

That's all. Never once did I "bring politics or emotion" into it. You then went on to claim I'm not an adult or that I do drugs. Which is ironic, given your swath of bad faith political arguments in a thread not dedicated for that. Grow up.

Every time you post you change the story…literally every.single.time which is why I asked if you do drugs.

 

[IrishLax]

There is a reason Bidens approval ratings are hovering in the mid 30% right now on a good day. I am in agreement that this is not all his fault, and wont make it a trump vs Biden thing, but Biden has been underwhelming at best in his first year and I think there are a lot of indicators that say as much. In some instances he was definitely dealt a tough hand, but he hasnt played them well either.

Very fair statement. I don’t begrudge anyone their opinions here, it’s all very complex. Hindsight makes it easy to point at specific strategic moves over the past decade for multiple leaders in multiple countries that led to this situation.

I still think that it is wild how people piled on Romney in 2012 for being *completely right* about Russia.

 

[Johannes]

Interesting discussion of the Russian military's performance thus far versus expectations.

Edit: Added one more.

 

[IrishLax]

Russia thinks that they can bluff their way into a position of strength by saying “we have nukes!” when in reality they will never, ever use them unless the rumors of Putin’s declining mental health are true… and even if those rumors are true, it takes three people to fire nukes in Russia and I have a really hard time believing all three people in charge are insane. And if they are, we were all fucked anyways.

 

[ab2cmiller]

I thought this twitter thread was interesting from an urban warfare expert.

 

[Irish#1]

Yes that's the story and it's accepted without much serious debate. I guess scholars like acamp stumble upon hard hitting Nagasaki debates more often than plebs like me.

Maybe I missed something along the way but I've never heard it called a war crime or anything of that nature and the conversation usually ends with "it saved lives".

I think our perception of the events would be bit different if the soviets or any other nation dropped those nukes.

Imagine if the same thing happened today and we were told it was done to save lives. Would we simply accept it and move on?

This isn't a WW2 thread and I'm sorry to go on and on. I was simply pointing out that we're quite capable of justifying questionable wartime behavior.

Two distinct differences. The U.S. didn’t start the war with Japan and they were given the opportunity to surrender after the first bomb.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Have to wonder what the end game for Belarus is here. What do they gain from becoming part of this. Surely they have to be aware by now how this had isolated Russia and the entire world is condemning this. What is the motivation to run aboard the sinking ship. Am I missing something?

 

[IrishLax]

Have to wonder what the end game for Belarus is here. What do they gain from becoming part of this. Surely they have to be aware by now how this had isolated Russia and the entire world is condemning this. What is the motivation to run aboard the sinking ship. Am I missing something?

They have a dictator who Putin is promising to keep in power like a little North Korea as long as he helps him.