Rumored Violations

[Emcee77]

It really makes no sense at all that the players don't even know when the hearings will be. How hard is it to give them that much?

I wonder if Kelly is at all thinking about just taking matters into his own hands.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, but there is no reason the players can't play right now except that Kelly (probably counseled by the athletic department) has decided to hold them out in case it turns out that these players did something that makes them ineligible.

So at what point does Kelly say, I can't wait for these honesty committee proceedings to conclude, so I'm going to use the resources of the athletic department to try to determine independently whether these guys did anything that would make them ineligible.

Can it be that hard? Christ, I'll do it. All I would need is a copy of the NCAA D-I rule book and the cooperation of the kids involved. And $175/hr for the investigation and report. (That's a "friend" price, ND.)

Or is there some rule that a kid is ineligible if he's convicted by his school's equivalent of an honor council, without spelling out precisely what conduct constitutes a violation but instead leaving that for the individual schools? If that's the case then Kelly just has to wait.

 

[GoIrish41]

It really makes no sense at all that the players don't even know when the hearings will be. How hard is it to give them that much?

I wonder if Kelly is at all thinking about just taking matters into his own hands.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong about this, but there is no reason the players can't play right now except that Kelly (probably counseled by the athletic department) has decided to hold them out in case it turns out that these players did something that makes them ineligible.

So at what point does Kelly say, I can't wait for these honesty committee proceedings to conclude, so I'm going to use the resources of the athletic department to try to determine independently whether these guys did anything that would make them ineligible.

Can it be that hard? Christ, I'll do it. All I would need is a copy of the NCAA D-I rule book and the cooperation of the kids involved. And $175/hr for the investigation and report. (That's a "friend" price, ND.)

Or is there some rule that a kid is ineligible if he's convicted by his school's equivalent of an honor council, without spelling out precisely what conduct constitutes a violation but instead leaving that for the individual schools? If that's the case then Kelly just has to wait.

J. Winston didn't get 5 minutes away from team activities for stealing crab legs or being accused of raping someone. I'd venture a guess that the NCAA rule book does not preclude these players from playing while this shit show plays out. This is ND taking their own academic credibility too far, IMO. Let the kids play!!!!!

 

[wizards8507]

J. Winston didn't get 5 minutes away from team activities for stealing crab legs or being accused of raping someone. I'd venture a guess that the NCAA rule book does not preclude these players from playing while this shit show plays out. This is ND taking their own academic credibility too far, IMO. Let the kids play!!!!!

So at what point does Kelly say, I can't wait for these honesty committee proceedings to conclude, so I'm going to use the resources of the athletic department to try to determine independently whether these guys did anything that would make them ineligible.

I think there's a step you're missing. It's not whether they did a thing that would make them ineligible. It's whether they did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible.

Not this: DaVaris did XYZ, so he's ineligible.

This: DaVaris did XYZ, so he gets an F on his final paper for "Principles of Cosmology," which drops his course grade to a D, which drops his semester GPA to a 1.62, which drops his cumulative CPA to a 1.97, which causes him to be ineligible.

Remember, DD already had to leave school for a semester due to grades. We can infer that his GPA was already borderline for what ND requires of student athletes. So I don't think it's an issue of receiving an athletic/extracurricular punishment, it's a matter of receiving an academic punishment, the results thereof having consequences for athletic eligibility.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

This: DaVaris did XYZ, so he gets an F on his final paper for "Principles of Cosmology," which drops his course grade to a D, which drops his semester GPA to a 1.62, which drops his cumulative CPA to a 1.97, which causes him to be ineligible.

That's a 5m exercise at the Registrar's office.

 

[CarrollVermin]

I think there's a step you're missing. It's not whether they did a thing that would make them ineligible. It's whether they did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible.

Not this: DaVaris did XYZ, so he's ineligible.

This: DaVaris did XYZ, so he gets an F on his final paper for "Principles of Cosmology," which drops his course grade to a D, which drops his semester GPA to a 1.62, which drops his cumulative CPA to a 1.97, which causes him to be ineligible.

Remember, DD already had to leave school for a semester due to grades. We can infer that his GPA was already borderline for what ND requires of student athletes. So I don't think it's an issue of receiving an athletic/extracurricular punishment, it's a matter of receiving an academic punishment, the results thereof having consequences for athletic eligibility.

This part is true, but those calculations are pretty quick to do. I process grades here in about a half hour for my students at the end of the semester. I also have a turn around on tests and assignments of no more than 24 hours, because feedback is my way of rewarding their effort. I know the argument has been made that this could take a while to figure out grades, but it really doesn't (and I know that is not the argument that you are making).

The failure in my opinion is the idea that no one knows when this is going to happen. Someone on that campus does, and is holding the cards to move this forward. Why has that person not been in contact with Jenkins, the Provost, or anyone to let them know when they will "have time" to address this issue.

 

[Cali_domer]

Important question yet to be answered is will this thread hit 7,000 by the end of the day (PST).

 

[Bogtrotter07]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/f96p-IhcZhQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[wizards8507]

This part is true, but those calculations are pretty quick to do. I process grades here in about a half hour for my students at the end of the semester. I also have a turn around on tests and assignments of no more than 24 hours, because feedback is my way of rewarding their effort. I know the argument has been made that this could take a while to figure out grades, but it really doesn't (and I know that is not the argument that you are making).

The failure in my opinion is the idea that no one knows when this is going to happen. Someone on that campus does, and is holding the cards to move this forward. Why has that person not been in contact with Jenkins, the Provost, or anyone to let them know when they will "have time" to address this issue.

That's a 5m exercise at the Registrar's office.

Right, I'm not saying that's why there's a delay. They apparently haven't even had the hearings to determine if they're getting an F on the paper(s)/course(s) in the first place. I was responding to a poster who suggested that the athletic department might be able to conduct their own investigation and issue their own punishments according to NCAA rules. I was pointing out that the athletic consequences are contingent upon the academic ones.

 

[Emcee77]

J. Winston didn't get 5 minutes away from team activities for stealing crab legs or being accused of raping someone. I'd venture a guess that the NCAA rule book does not preclude these players from playing while this shit show plays out. This is ND taking their own academic credibility too far, IMO. Let the kids play!!!!!

Well, wait a sec, that's going too far. We cannot let a kid play who we know may have done something that makes him ineligible. The NCAA could force us to vacate wins if it turns out that he was ineligible while he played for us.

I think there's a step you're missing. It's not whether they did a thing that would make them ineligible. It's whether they did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible.

Not this: DaVaris did XYZ, so he's ineligible.

This: DaVaris did XYZ, so he gets an F on his final paper for "Principles of Cosmology," which drops his course grade to a D, which drops his semester GPA to a 1.62, which drops his cumulative CPA to a 1.97, which causes him to be ineligible.

Remember, DD already had to leave school for a semester due to grades. We can infer that his GPA was already borderline for what ND requires of student athletes. So I don't think it's an issue of receiving an athletic/extracurricular punishment, it's a matter of receiving an academic punishment, the results thereof having consequences for athletic eligibility.

I see why you think that, but I wasn't missing that step. I was presenting for discussion the idea that it might be possible for Kelly to conduct his own investigation to determine on his own whether these players "did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible."

Emphasis on "might." I said in my prior post that all Kelly's investigator would need is a copy of the NCAA rulebook and the cooperation of the kids involved. I should have said that he would also need a copy of DuLac or whatever document contains the relevant university rules, which is also readily and publicly available. But maybe the conduct of these kids was so borderline that there is no way to accurately predict what decision the honesty committee and whatever other university officials are involved will make.

I can't say with any degree of certainty, but maybe someone who knows more about these things can comment on that possibility.

 

[CarrollVermin]

No presser today with the bye week, correct?

 

[wizards8507]

Well, wait a sec, that's going too far. We cannot let a kid play who we know may have done something that makes him ineligible. The NCAA could force us to vacate wins if it turns out that he was ineligible while he played for us.

I see why you think that, but I wasn't missing that step. I was presenting for discussion the idea that it might be possible for Kelly to conduct his own investigation to determine on his own whether these players "did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible."

Emphasis on "might." I said in my prior post that all Kelly's investigator would need is a copy of the NCAA rulebook and the cooperation of the kids involved. I should have said that he would also need a copy of DuLac or whatever document contains the relevant university rules, which is also readily and publicly available. But maybe the conduct of these kids was so borderline that there is no way to accurately predict what decision the honesty committee and whatever other university officials are involved will make.

I can't say with any degree of certainty, but maybe someone who knows more about these things can comment on that possibility.

Those rules aren't super black and white. The committee has guidelines when issuing punishments but it's not always as simple as "infraction A receives punishment B." The committee could find a player guilty and issue an array of different punishments. BK might be able to conclude "they did it," but he wouldn't be able to predict what punishment the committee would issue.

 

[Emcee77]

Those rules aren't super black and white. The committee has guidelines when issuing punishments but it's not always as simple as "infraction A receives punishment B." The committee could find a player guilty and issue an array of different punishments. BK might be able to conclude "they did it," but he wouldn't be able to predict what punishment the committee would issue.

Oh ok. That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the input.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Those rules aren't super black and white. The committee has guidelines when issuing punishments but it's not always as simple as "infraction A receives punishment B." The committee could find a player guilty and issue an array of different punishments. BK might be able to conclude "they did it," but he wouldn't be able to predict what punishment the committee would issue.

But he may be able to determine that certain players (KvR, for instance) definitely did not do anything that would make them ineligible according to NCAA rules, which would allow them to begin practicing with the team again.

It's a good point, Emcee, but I'd bet it's entirely academic. There are chain-of-command issues here, and Kelly's not about to go rogue on the off-chance he can get 1-2 players back a bit earlier. Especially not during a bye week with Syracuse coming up.

 

[wizards8507]

Oh ok. That's what I was afraid of. Thanks for the input.

If you're curious...

http://honorcode.nd.edu/assets/63630/guidelines_for_selecting_honor_code_sanctions_web_jul_2005.pdf

 

[Emcee77]

It's a good point, Emcee, but I'd bet it's entirely academic. There are chain-of-command issues here, and Kelly's not about to go rogue on the off-chance he can get 1-2 players back a bit earlier. Especially not during a bye week with Syracuse coming up.

Oh yeah, I'm sure you are right. We've beaten better teams than Syracuse without these guys already.

 

[CarrollVermin]

Oh yeah, I'm sure you are right. We've beaten better teams than Syracuse without these guys already.

Sure, because we had no injuries against Purdue that necessitate getting these guys back.

 

[IndyIrishFan1]

If you're curious...

http://honorcode.nd.edu/assets/63630/guidelines_for_selecting_honor_code_sanctions_web_jul_2005.pdf

That is fake right? Did ND really use Comic Sans in this document?

 

[GATTACA!]

But he may be able to determine that certain players (KvR, for instance) definitely did not do anything that would make them ineligible according to NCAA rules, which would allow them to begin practicing with the team again.

It's a good point, Emcee, but I'd bet it's entirely academic. There are chain-of-command issues here, and Kelly's not about to go rogue on the off-chance he can get 1-2 players back a bit earlier. Especially not during a bye week with Syracuse coming up.

Wouldn't it also make sense for Kelly to go and ask the registrar if the players end up getting an F in course X will they be ineligible? If the punishment ends up being expulsion the players wouldn't be considered ineligible until they expulsion actually happens correct? It would seem to me that the only way the program gets in trouble is if the players are below the academic standard, not for playing a player that is not yet expelled.

But...... i dont know what the fuck im talking about.

 

[wizards8507]

That is fake right? Did ND really use Comic Sans in this document?

I'm pretty sure it's Calibri or Arial. Definitely not Comic Sans.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

That is fake right? Did ND really use Comic Sans in this document?

That's depressingly appropriate for the current circumstances.

 

[pkt77242]

Thanks for your expert testimony on how to run a major University in America. You, and everyone else whining and crying, would do better to sit down and STFU, and enjoy the fact that this team has risen to a bunch of challenges, to start the season 3-0.

Why don't you. You are taking this way too personally. If anyone says anything negative about the way that ND is handling this you jump all over them. Calm the Fuck down. And Fuck USC.

 

[GATTACA!]

I'm pretty sure it's Calibri or Arial. Definitely not Comic Sans.

He's talking about the headers for the inserted examples. That's 100% comic sans, well maybe it's comic neue bold, but probably not.

 

[Emcee77]

Sure, because we had no injuries against Purdue that necessitate getting these guys back.

Of course we'll want to get them back as quickly as possible, but I wouldn't say we lost anyone against Purdue who we really need against Syracuse. The only guy hurt on Saturday who is definitely out for 'Cuse is Baratti, right? The depth chart is thin at safety, but hopefully Collinsworth will be back, and Turner and Onwualu can cross-train. Hunter will help to make up for the loss of Carlisle, if he can't return. Luke had a concussion, so he should be recovered in plenty of time, unless it's worse than we know. Am I missing any big ones? I'm not really worried about it.

 

[IrishLion]

Thanks for your expert testimony on how to run a major University in America. You, and everyone else whining and crying, would do better to sit down and STFU, and enjoy the fact that this team has risen to a bunch of challenges, to start the season 3-0.

This is the "Rumored Violations" thread (...among other things). I understand the anti-whining-and-crying feelings, but this is the appropriate place for everyone to state their opinions/beliefs/theories/feels/etc.

Please refrain from asking Koon, or anyone, to "STFU" just because you don't think he's qualified to run the University. He's not running the University. He's stating his opinion, on an internet forum, in the proper place, about the University.

 

[GoIrish41]

Well, wait a sec, that's going too far. We cannot let a kid play who we know may have done something that makes him ineligible. The NCAA could force us to vacate wins if it turns out that he was ineligible while he played for us.



I see why you think that, but I wasn't missing that step. I was presenting for discussion the idea that it might be possible for Kelly to conduct his own investigation to determine on his own whether these players "did a thing that would cause them to fail an assignment, fail a course, or be expelled from the university that would, in turn, make them ineligible."

Emphasis on "might." I said in my prior post that all Kelly's investigator would need is a copy of the NCAA rulebook and the cooperation of the kids involved. I should have said that he would also need a copy of DuLac or whatever document contains the relevant university rules, which is also readily and publicly available. But maybe the conduct of these kids was so borderline that there is no way to accurately predict what decision the honesty committee and whatever other university officials are involved will make.

I can't say with any degree of certainty, but maybe someone who knows more about these things can comment on that possibility.

I think they cannot play a kid who they know has done something that makes him academically ineligible. From everything I've read, nobody knows if they have or have not done anything of the sort. It is insane how poorly this whole thing has been handled. IMO, this has not been about any actual academic integrity of the players for several week, but more about the perception of the university's academic integrity ... all at the expense of the students involved, the team, the coach and the fans of the team. They could have announced following the investigation what the findings were for the players -- something like, "it was discovered that all five players committed academic fraud, and punishments will be decided by an established process." We would have all gotten used to the idea of the players being gone, and this topic would have died on the vine. It appears that either the university administration is incredibly incompetent or they didn't want that. Instead, they let the debate rage on about how the university has great integrity because it held out it star football players in case there might have been academic irregularities. That's super for the university, but what about the players who are hanging in limbo? If any of them are cleared, well, don't even get me started on how f*cked up that would be.

 

[kmoose]

They could have announced following the investigation what the findings were for the players -- something like, "it was discovered that all five players committed academic fraud, and punishments will be decided by an established process." We would have all gotten used to the idea of the players being gone, and this topic would have died on the vine. It appears that either the university administration is incredibly incompetent or they didn't want that. Instead, they let the debate rage on about how the university has great integrity because it held out it star football players in case there might have been academic irregularities. That's super for the university, but what about the players who are hanging in limbo? If any of them are cleared, well, don't even get me started on how f*cked up that would be.

Or........ it could be that a bunch of fans have an overblown sense of self-worth, and think that they are entitled to an "insider's" view of everything that is going on....

 

[GATTACA!]

Or........ it could be that a bunch of fans have an overblown sense of self-worth, and think that they are entitled to an "insider's" view of everything that is going on....

 

[koonja]

It's crazy that it takes longer to hold a hearing than it did to conduct the entire investigation. Maybe ND should hire a private company to schedule the hearing.

 

[kmoose]

There's nothing "badass" about it. I'm just tired of hearing supposedly grown men whine and moan like teenage girls, because they aren't being treated like they are special. No one on the IE board is going to be a part of the hearings, so what makes anyone here think that the University owes them a timetable of what is to come? Why should the University inform anyone here when the hearings will be? Some people here have a seriously skewed view of what they are entitled to.

 

[koonja]

For those that say it's taking a long time therefore is likely bad.

2 things: 1) DD knows what he did and what they know. Why would he be complaining if he knew what he did was that bad that he won't be back? And why is BK starting to show frustration with how long it's taking? BK knows what happened, don't kid yourself. He's answering QUs in the manner of someone who knows at least some will be back IMO.