Rumored Violations

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BGIF

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Sorry Koonja, I tried to quote your post but it was deleted while I was trying to respond.

2 of them have NFL grades from last year,

Powlus was going to win two Heisman's.

Quinn got invited to the NFL Draft.

Clausen was a once in a generation QB.


So what?


What's relevant is their Notre Dame grades, the ones that determine eligibility now and for past semesters.
 
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koonja

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Sorry Koonja, I tried to quote your post but it go deleted while I was trying to respond.



Powlus was going to win two Heisman's.

Quinn got invited to the NFL Draft.

Clausen was a once in a generation QB.


So what?


What's relevant is their Notre Dame grades, the ones that determine eligibility now and for past semesters.

I'm on my phone so I won't be able to put up much of a fight, but those players lost their stock on their own merit. IFF, these guys are innocent and they know it, the University is holding them out of contributing towards a skill they came here to capitalize on.

When college is the only route players who want to get to the NFL can go (besides sit out for 3 years which is unrealistic IMO), I think there's possible grounds.
 
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Grahambo

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IDK about impossible. If they have an evaluation grade and someone willing to go on record with it... Maybe some lawyers on here can comment on the legality of it.

My un-lawyer opinion is no chance in hell. How many guys have had 1st-2nd round talent only to fall to the late rounds or even out of the draft due to 'character issues'?
 

Crazy Balki

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I think if players don't like the way these processes are conducted, the players should: 1)not engage in behavior that is against the rules, or 2)not engage in behavior that could be perceived to be against the rules, thus requiring an investigation, or 3) if 1 or 2 occurs, transfer to another institution that is willing to pay their full tuition, or 4) if 1 or 2 occurs, accept the consequences of the school and move on like a responsible human being.

Suing ND for damages is utterly absurd.

Not saying there is anything that can be used in court for this,

However, there is a lot of grey area in your argument. You say the players should not engage in behavior that "could be perceived" to be against the rules, but the fact is, not a lot of people know what that is. Who knows how involved Player A was in seeing student A cheat. Maybe he walked in while they were cheating, but didn't know anything about it and/or were told something other than the truth, for example:

Student A: Hey what you doing? (Student on computer, currently copy/pasting paper)
Student B: Oh you know, just finishing up a mid-term paper.
Player A: Oh, cool.

There really isn't any grounds to punish a player/student for "possibly" knowing about cheating, because it's not his responsibility to do so, no matter how gung-ho we want to be about academic honesty. It's just not within reason to put that on a student, especially when there is way too much grey area where that conviction can go. He's got his own shit to deal with, and you expect him to drop that just because he MAY have seen cheating? I mean, these so-called "educated professionals" can apparently tell when a paper is plagiarized, so why is it so important that they tattle on them when it's obvious they'll most likely get caught anyway? If he was directly involved in the cheating, then okay, that has legs, but if they're going off, well Student A was in the same room as Student B when he cheated, that's just not good enough.
 
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Cackalacky

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My un-lawyer opinion is no chance in hell. How many guys have had 1st-2nd round talent only to fall to the late rounds or even out of the draft due to 'character issues'?

I agree and I am ignorant regarding tort, negligence, settlements etc., but I have seen some lawyers pull some stunners.
 

kmoose

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I couldn't disagree more. I don't, nor will I ever see football, or any sport for that matter, as an "extracurricular activity". It is a service. An important one at that.

No offense, but...
1. How you see it is immaterial. No one is consulting you before determining anyone's eligibility.

2. ex·tra·cur·ric·u·lar adjective \ˌek-strə-kə-ˈri-kyə-lər\

—used to describe extra activities (such as sports) that can be done by the students in a school but that are not part of the regular schedule of classes

Sports is in the very definition of "extracurricular!

Jenkins/Kelly/Jack can't just wake up in the morning and say, "Hey, I don't like your shoes...pack your shit, you're going home."

Yes they can. Don't confuse "can't" with "it's not wise to". Notre Dame is not obligated to keep any of these guys on scholarship. No athlete is OWED anything, legally. That's how the SEC can get away with oversigning and then "cutting". Father Jenkins could get up one morning, decide that there is only room in the Athletics Budget for 80 football players to have scholarships, and inform Kelly/Swarbrick that they need to furnish the names of the 5 players who will either be packing their shit and going home, or getting someone else to cover the cost of their schooling.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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gut feeling: longer this goes the more I worry the results are going to be very bad.

Gut feeling : the longer this thing goes on, the more I think that no one has a Michigan clue; and, truth really is stranger than friction.
 

Irish#1

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I'm on my phone so I won't be able to put up much of a fight, but those players lost their stock on their own merit. IFF, these guys are innocent and they know it, the University is holding them out of contributing towards a skill they came here to capitalize on.

When college is the only route players who want to get to the NFL can go (besides sit out for 3 years which is unrealistic IMO), I think there's possible grounds.

Sorry, Koonja but I disagree. If you have the skills to play in the NFL, they will get their shot even if the miss the rest of the year. I'm sure BK can get more than one team to take a look at any of them that have the ability.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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Thought a decision was already made: spicy beam and cheese dip is delicious

Now here is some news from Keith Arnold :

* It’s time for the Honor Code committee to get their work done and decide what happens to these five kids. Provost Tom Burish was in Indianapolis on Friday for the Shamrock Series Fan Fest. Now he should get together with his deans and Honor committee and make a decision.

I never believed anything about decisions. Like I tried to say, these were the judgments of some people that had some understanding of what the circumstances were, nothing more.

But I do think the idea that KVR was on the hook for not "squealing", or that there were different dispositions for different players had merit. I also think that most of this is stuff that would not normally be considered cheating in most places, i.e., more about how much "editing" is too much, than fraudulently acquired papers.
 

DogDaysIrish

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Now here is some news from Keith Arnold :



I never believed anything about decisions. Like I tried to say, these were the judgments of some people that had some understanding of what the circumstances were, nothing more.

But I do think the idea that KVR was on the hook for not "squealing", or that there were different dispositions for different players had merit. I also think that most of this is stuff that would not normally be considered cheating in most places, i.e., more about how much "editing" is too much, than fraudulently acquired papers.

Very well said.
 

Crazy Balki

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Now here is some news from Keith Arnold :



I never believed anything about decisions. Like I tried to say, these were the judgments of some people that had some understanding of what the circumstances were, nothing more.

But I do think the idea that KVR was on the hook for not "squealing", or that there were different dispositions for different players had merit. I also think that most of this is stuff that would not normally be considered cheating in most places, i.e., more about how much "editing" is too much, than fraudulently acquired papers.

If that is the case, there isn't much KVR (in theory) can be deemed guilty of then. You can't really squeal on "too much editing", because unless he is being thoroughly walked through step by step, he's not going to know how much editing is going on.
 

wizards8507

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The notion that KVR was merely a witness to cheating rather than a cheater himself is unsubstantiated internet rumor. It MIGHT be true for all we know but I don't see any reason to run with it as fact and make even further speciation off it.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4
 

BobD

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Today is the day that something happens.













Not with this issue, but I'm sure something will happen elsewhere.
 
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Bogtrotter07

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The notion that KVR was merely a witness to cheating rather than a cheater himself is unsubstantiated internet rumor. It MIGHT be true for all we know but I don't see any reason to run with it as fact and make even further speciation off it.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy S III using Tapatalk 4

Agreed. But people are going to want to understand the situation. I was merely trying to point out one of the possibilities that made sense.

When I talk to several ND grads that are professors at different institutions and they have been talking about editing, etc., I am going to believe something like that to be at the heart of this whole thing until otherwise disproved. For the sake of conversation.

Kind of like the reflections of firelight and shadows on the cave wall, which is the most any of us see, that we need interpreted by those worthy of ruling, who really know what it is, and must interpret it for us . . . .
 

FrankMA

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Sorry, Koonja but I disagree. If you have the skills to play in the NFL, they will get their shot even if the miss the rest of the year. I'm sure BK can get more than one team to take a look at any of them that have the ability.

If they have the skills to play in the NFL, they will get a shot as undrafted free agents; however, if they miss the season and had the opportunity for a great season, which is the case with at least 2 of the players, they will potentially lose millions of dollars.
 

kmoose

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If they have the skills to play in the NFL, they will get a shot as undrafted free agents; however, if they miss the season and had the opportunity for a great season, which is the case with at least 2 of the players, they will potentially lose millions of dollars.

They also had the chance to have their football careers ended, forever, by a catastrophic injury....

Perhaps the University should be suing THEM, for a piece of their contract(s)?
 

Booslum31

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They also had the chance to have their football careers ended, forever, by a catastrophic injury....

Perhaps the University should be suing THEM, for a piece of their contract(s)?[/QUOTE]

Interesting take KMoose. Really all of our angst has been against the University...and not much against those involved. Maybe that comes after we hear what they actually did.
 

BigIrish

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My OPINION is that none of these guys will be returning to the team this semester. I suspect that there is enough compelling evidence against them to warrant at least a semester-long suspension, and I believe THAT is why there has been no sense of urgency to dole out a verdict. The delay between the announced conclusion of the investigation and the hearings suggests that there is considerable time being spent on the penalty phase of the process. Perhaps there is some internal negotiation taking place behind the scenes - disagreement as to the severity of the punishment being considered. Who knows?

Again, just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't believe that ND is dragging this out without any good reason. The simplest answer has to be that the results of the investigation are particularly damning for the players involved.
 
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koonja

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We're all speculating at this point so what the hell.

BK knows what they did. He's talked to the kids. He understands the severity (albeit not the punishment, but he can make an educated guess).

The last couple of weeks, he's sounded like he knows some will be back. Rather than 'we've moved on, etc', it's 'if they're cleared, they'll play tomorrow'.

He's answering hypotheticals, but he seems to have changed his tone. If he knew they were F-d either way, he wouldn't seem so upset that a decision hasn't been made.

Rather than deflect attention, he's inviting it by saying those things, and it's for a reason. He's putting pressure on admin by indirectly opening them up to questioning from outsiders. JMO.

And with that, Fuck USC.
 
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