Rioting in St Louis

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Irishbounty28

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Of all the cases, Tamir Rice is the one where I have by far the least amount of sympathy. It's a tragedy that he was young, but he was pointing a very real looking gun at people and "scaring the shit" out of them. Cops were called directly because of his actions... this wasn't a kid getting stopped-and-frisked or minding his own business or in a situation like Crawford in Walmart... he was alone waving a gun around that had the orange tip purposely removed to look as real as possible.

Cops respond to the call and you can't see exactly what happens, by their account he reached for the gun, and there is no evidence to contradict that. For adults, they call an action like that "suicide by cop."

I'm sympathetic that he was probably too young to know better, outside of that all his death was 100% preventable through just his actions alone.
To bounce off of LAX a little. This is exactly why this statement was made by the PD, because it is the most proactive approach that can be taken to prevent this from happening in the future. If Tamir Rice was in fact too young to know better, than this information could have benefited the situation greatly if it was presented to him by parents prior to the incident.
 

wizards8507

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To bounce off of LAX a little. This is exactly why this statement was made by the PD, because it is the most proactive approach that can be taken to prevent this from happening in the future. If Tamir Rice was in fact too young to know better, than this information could have benefited the situation greatly if it was presented to him by parents prior to the incident.
Which perfectly explains the title of the article "Kids will be kids?" Yes, kids will be kids. That's why you, parents, need to be parents.
 
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Princeton

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Yes I went to Ferguson in August and I went to the one in Indianapolis after the Michael Brown grand jury decision.
 

ulukinatme

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Those Princeton people are smart. They found a way to make their voice heard without breaking the law and shutting down a road. Inconceivable!
 
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Princeton die-in

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wizards8507

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NJNP, can I ask what you think "no justice, no peace" means? I saw a national news anchor use it incorrectly so I'm curious how widespread the misconception is.

The anchor used it to mean "we are not receiving justice so society is not at peace." What it really means is "we are not receiving justice so we will not ALLOW society to be at peace." No justice, no peace is not a diagnosis of a problem, it's a promise to do violence until the perceived problem is solved.
 
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NJNP, can I ask what you think "no justice, no peace" means? I saw a national news anchor use it incorrectly so I'm curious how widespread the misconception is.

The anchor used it to mean "we are not receiving justice so society is not at peace." What it really means is "we are not receiving justice so we will not ALLOW society to be at peace." No justice, no peace is not a diagnosis of a problem, it's a promise to do violence until the perceived problem is solved.

It's the explanation of civil disobedience and shutting down streets. We don't get justice, you don't get to peacefully live your life and ignore it.
 

kmoose

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Princeton

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Look at all of those white faces.


That, ladies and gentlemen, is the face of institutionalized racism in America!
 
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"Everyone is crying out for peace, none is crying out for justice / I don't want no peace / I need equal rights and justice"
 

GoIrish41

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NJNP, can I ask what you think "no justice, no peace" means? I saw a national news anchor use it incorrectly so I'm curious how widespread the misconception is.

The anchor used it to mean "we are not receiving justice so society is not at peace." What it really means is "we are not receiving justice so we will not ALLOW society to be at peace." No justice, no peace is not a diagnosis of a problem, it's a promise to do violence until the perceived problem is solved.

That might be the case if the opposite of "peace" was "violence." But it isn't. Peace is defined as freedom from disturbance; quiet and tranquility. So, no justice no peace is the promise of disturbing the calm of society until justice is served. It literally has nothing to do with violence unless you are reaching for it to mean that.
 
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wizards8507

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That might be the case if the opposite of "peace" was "violence." But it isn't. Peace is defined as freedom from disturbance; quiet and tranquility. So, no justice no peace is the promice of disturbing the calm of society until justice is served. It literally has nothing to do with violence unless you are reaching for it to mean that.
Violence was the wrong word, you're right. "Disturbance" is fine. We agree on the definition.
 

IrishinSyria

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They don't need to comment on it and blame the 12 year old on his shooting. Have some tact and stay away from topics like that after what has happened.

Also telling the child to reach for the gun and make a sudden movement is terrible advice.

I appreciate your passion and I have a lot of sympathy for what you're saying but I really think you're letting your emotions cloud any sort of clear headed analysis of the issues that are coming up here- this ranges from your take on the larger issues (cops making it hard for people to live) to small, but critically important, details.

Read the letter again. They do not say to reach for the gun and make a sudden movement. The exact quote is this.

Remember if an airsoft pistol is tucked in your pants like a holster then obviously the orange tip is no longer visible. The police will respond lights and sirens and come to a screeching halt in the area where your child is playing with the gun. Here are some tips to help your child respond appropriately. Do not run away. They need to no longer have the gun in their hands, throw it away from them.

There is a clear break in topic from the part about it being tucked in your pants to the part about throwing it away. Throwing it away is advice for what to do if you have an airsoft gun in your hand and the police respond.

The person who wrote that post could have been more clear with their language. But it's good and important advice.
 

IrishinSyria

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I would respectfully disagree with this. This incident, along with many others are unfortunate and I think most people would hope for a different outcome that didn't involve anyone, regardless of race, losing their life. With that being said, there have been many law enforcement officers that have lost their own life because of hesitation in similar situations. I would agree that this situation could have been handled in a different manner that would have circumvented this tragedy from happening. Whether that be stopping further away and utilizing alternate forms of communication from a distance, or whatever else.

It could have been the officer involved made the wrong decision initially to pull up to the child in question, and contact him within a close proximity. The proximity to the individual could have heightened the threat in the officers view, therefore leading to a quick decision that ended up being horrific.

The biggest issue in law enforcement today is not racism on the individual officers part, but the lack of training on an institutional level. Many officers are placed in positions that they have not had training on for a long period of time, and are expected to make the right decision every time. If the right decision isn't made, then they will be chastised and demonized for making the wrong decision. In all actuality, they have been put in a position by not having the training necessary when dealing with the most important situation in regards to using deadly force.

In contrast, escalation of force and the rules of engagement are gone over every single day with our military. These things cover when it is okay and not okay to utilize deadly force. It is talked about during every warning order before combat patrols, before taking up post to protect the base, and before going out on convoys. I know for a fact that it is not covered to that extent in law enforcement where the lines are even more skewed than in combat, and repercussions are even more sever.

I agree with everything you posted here, but no amount of training in the world can completely cut down on the sort of (justified) fear that seems to provoke these overly-quick reactions.

The first time my unit took fire in the Stan we responded with an overwhelming volume of fire that probably covered about 200º even though the guys shooting at our dudes were standing shoulder to shoulder about 300m away. I classified the incident as "ineffective small arms fire" but that doesn't change the fact that for the guys in that position, there was nothing ineffective about the fire. All it would take is one bit of bad luck to end your life.

Why do cops feel so threatened? Because there is a very real threat to them...

Law Enforcement Line of Duty Deaths in 2014

2014 Line of Duty Deaths
Gunfire: 43
 

Bishop2b5

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Frederick Wilson II is indeed a smart young man. He gets it. This is great advice for any group, regardless of race, who feel the world or the cops are picking on them.
 
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Eric Garner's wife said the cop who killed her husband is still getting a paycheck while she's looking for a way to feed her kids now. Jesus</p>— Lady E (@FloeticJustice7) <a href="https://twitter.com/FloeticJustice7/status/540364951895158784">December 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>I feel like crying for our country, for our people. How many more times must we go down this road? <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/ICantBreathe?src=hash">#ICantBreathe</a></p>— John Lewis (@repjohnlewis) <a href="https://twitter.com/repjohnlewis/status/540558610380906497">December 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
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kmoose

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Eric Garner's wife said the cop who killed her husband is still getting a paycheck while she's looking for a way to feed her kids now. Jesus</p>— Lady E (@FloeticJustice7) <a href="https://twitter.com/FloeticJustice7/status/540364951895158784">December 4, 2014</a></blockquote>
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Which cop, exactly, killed her husband? Because looking at the video, Garner was in the choke hold for only about 15 seconds. So it's not like someone cut off his air until his heart stopped. I'm not saying that the cops were not responsible for his death, but it seems very hard to say that one particular cop caused his death.
 

IrishLax

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Not sure if anyone has posted this yet...

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Mad World NewsThis Black Man’s Advice To Black People Is Going Mega-Viral… He NAILS It!

Frederick Wilson II is indeed a smart young man. He gets it. This is great advice for any group, regardless of race, who feel the world or the cops are picking on them.

I agree with the premise of the video, that personal accountability is often ignored in favor of the race card and victim mentality.

At the same time, there are many instances (Garner only being the most recent) of a lack of accountability for law enforcement. So it's hard to pontificate on "personal accountability" when cops that DO overstep their bounds are not held accountable for their actions.

I try to be as fair and logical as possible when approaching issues/discussions like this, and I find it hard to reconcile asking people to be mature/respectful/accountable when they see authority figures not being held accountable for their actions.
 

wizards8507

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I try to be as fair and logical as possible when approaching issues/discussions like this, and I find it hard to reconcile asking people to be mature/respectful/accountable when they see authority figures not being held accountable for their actions.
Accountable for what? A police officer confronted a man for violating the law. The man responded "this ends now" and resisted arrest. The police respond with the force necessary to subdue a 350-pound man. The ensuing struggle aggravates the man's preexisting medical condition and he dies. Nothing in there is grounds for a murder charge. Honestly, this man would have died if he tried to jog around the block. He was not murdered.
 
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Which cop, exactly, killed her husband? Because looking at the video, Garner was in the choke hold for only about 15 seconds. So it's not like someone cut off his air until his heart stopped. I'm not saying that the cops were not responsible for his death, but it seems very hard to say that one particular cop caused his death.

The one who put him in a chokehold because that was the cause of death
 
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