Rioting in St Louis

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Accountable for what? A police officer confronted a man for violating the law. The man responded "this ends now" and resisted arrest. The police respond with the force necessary to subdue a 350-pound man. The ensuing struggle aggravates the man's preexisting medical condition and he dies. Nothing in there is grounds for a murder charge. Honestly, this man would have died if he tried to jog around the block. He was not murdered.

According to the NYPD rules for more than two decades it was unnecessary force, and a chokehold isn't a preexisting medical condition. He was also getting arrested for nothing. Witnesses say he wasn't selling loosies. He broke up a fight. He was being targeted for having done it in the past.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

It was ruled a homicide so that means it was someone else's fault, just like manslaughter and murder.

 

[wizards8507]

The one who put him in a chokehold because that was the cause of death

How big are you NJNP? How would you go about cuffing an absolute giant who is resisting arrest?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

How big are you NJNP? How would you go about cuffing an absolute giant who is resisting arrest?

Pressure points is how I was trained for security. Also not trying to do it by yourself. I've had to restrain people resisting and I've never killed anyone. You don't grab someone by the neck ever.

 

[IrishLax]

Accountable for what? A police officer confronted a man for violating the law. The man responded "this ends now" and resisted arrest. The police respond with the force necessary to subdue a 350-pound man. The ensuing struggle aggravates the man's preexisting medical condition and he dies. Nothing in there is grounds for a murder charge. Honestly, this man would have died if he tried to jog around the block. He was not murdered.

Literally violated written NYPD policies/guidelines... and then they showed a blatant disregard for his life and let him die. The death was medically determined to be a homicide.

The negligent handling of the arrest caused the death, and it's absurd that this did not even go to trial to determine guilt of the parties involved. How can you have justice if the people responsible for the death don't even stand trial for their actions?

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

And this didn't even go to trial, which means they thought there was no chance there was even a crime. It's embarrassing and rigged by the prosecutor.

 

[wizards8507]

Witnesses say he wasn't selling loosies.

You mean like the witnesses who said Michael Brown was shot in the back with his hands in the air? People who admittedly HATE the police cannot be trusted as eyewitnesses against the police.

It was ruled a homicide so that means it was someone else's fault, just like manslaughter and murder.

Justifiable homicide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Why do you think you know so much better than the grand juries who sat for hours upon hours and saw every shred of evidence in these cases? Don't you think those folks know what happened a little better than you do?

 

[GoIrish41]

How big are you NJNP? How would you go about cuffing an absolute giant who is resisting arrest?

Why did they need to cuff him in the first place? He was selling cigarettes for christ sakes, not committing a violent crime. How about writing a citation? There was litterally no need for them to come into physical contact with him whatsoever. If he was speeding on the highway, would he get cuffed or would he get a citation?

 

[Grahambo]

Pressure points is how I was trained for security. Also not trying to do it by yourself. I've had to restrain people resisting and I've never killed anyone. You don't grab someone by the neck ever.

I had to bring large people down before. I've used choke holds too. You know how many people said I was breaking their arm, they couldn't breathe, etc.

They said it was a cause AMONG other things. There were other contributing factors. If you told me this ends now and I'm not going. I have no choice but to take you down.

Personal accountability. Get arrested and go to court like the justice system intended. Most cases get tossed, I've been involved in quite a bit that weren't even papered.

And if he violated NYPD procedures then they'll get him but murder and civil rights violations? It's a witch hunt.

 

[Wild Bill]

Accountable for what? A police officer confronted a man for violating the law. The man responded "this ends now" and resisted arrest. The police respond with the force necessary to subdue a 350-pound man. The ensuing struggle aggravates the man's preexisting medical condition and he dies. Nothing in there is grounds for a murder charge. Honestly, this man would have died if he tried to jog around the block. He was not murdered.

It's not that simple. There are a few issues, in my opinion. I would agree, he was resisting and some force was required to arrest him. The issue is whether the force was reasonable. He wasn't a threat to flee and he was not using force against any of the officers. I think any reasonable person would agree. I don't know what an officer is trained to do under these circumstances but the response I saw in the video struck me as unreasonable. Maybe my opinion would change if the officer has a duty to act in the manner he acted but I think this should have went to a jury.

His health is irrelevant. You take the person as you find him and you apply reasonable force. I don't assume you'd be comfortable with an officer applying a choke hold on an elderly family member b/c, well, they're going to die soon. That's absurd.

 

[wizards8507]

Why did they need to cuff him in the first place? He was selling cigarettes for christ sakes, not committing a violent crime. How about writing a citation?

Oh I agree on that front. The interaction never needed to happen, but it's the result of an overreaching state and local government that drove this, not a racist or negligent cop. I've already brought this up, but De Blasio and Bloomberg before him have issued special instructions to the NYPD to go after these "loosie" sellers because New York is missing out on the precious tax revenue they collect on their $13 packs of cigarettes. No joke, the New York cigarette taxes have created entire mafia operations from these loosie sales.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/41785506#.

There was litterally no need for them to come into physical contact with him whatsoever. If he was speeding on the highway, would he get cuffed or would he get a citation?

This didn't start physical. If you watch the video, the interaction opens as a normal conversation until GARNER freaks out. Yes, if you freak out like that after speeding on the highway, you're going to get cuffed.

 

[wizards8507]

His health has nothing to do with the officer's response. You take the person as you find him and you apply reasonable force. I don't assume you'd be comfortable with an officer applying a choke hold on an elderly family member b/c, well, they're going to die soon. That's absurd.

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean it's okay to kill him because he's already close to death. I meant a relatively small amount of force was enough to push him over the edge because his heart was in such poor condition to begin with. There's nothing in that video that shocks me into thinking "OMG THEY'RE KILLING THIS GUY." It looks like a reasonable takedown until, next thing you know it, the man is dead.

 

[Grahambo]

The cops were called to that location to deal with him. They had no choice. A misdemeanor arrest is still an arrest. Some states allow a ticket, others you have to take to jail.

 

[GoIrish41]

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean it's okay to kill him because he's already close to death. I meant a relatively small amount of force was enough to push him over the edge because his heart was in such poor condition to begin with. There's nothing in that video that shocks me into thinking "OMG THEY'RE KILLING THIS GUY." It looks like a reasonable takedown until, next thing you know it, the man is dead.

Man we must be watching different videos. There was nothing reasonable in that video from beginning to end.

 

[IrishLax]

A medical determination is not sufficient to make something a crime.

Completely ignoring the first part of the quoted text, which is that they violated procedure during the arrest.

Proximate cause... the man's obesity and medical conditions caused his death.

If someone has severe arachnophobia and you put them in a confined space with tarantulas and they have a heart attack and die, what caused their death? YOU PUTTING THEM IN A SITUATION WHICH TRIGGERED LATENT HEALTH ISSUES.

If someone is allergic to peanuts and you drop a peanut in their coke and they die, what caused their death? YOU PUTTING THEM IN A SITUATION WHICH TRIGGERED LATENT HEALTH ISSUES.

This is Logic 101. And Law 101. If you aggravate a condition that would otherwise not have been aggravated without your actions, it is your actions -- not the latent condition -- that is the proximate cause.

I'll ask you the same thing I asked NJNP. Why do you think you know better than the grand jury? Reviewing the facts and evidence has been their full time job for hours upon hours and they reached this decision based on more information than any of us have.

Oh, I don't know more than the grand jury. In fact... if you scroll back in this thread, I made a similar comment to NJNP about Ferguson when the news broke... so this is a bit ironic. But, I do have eyeballs. And I can read police guidelines. There may be reasonable doubt to whether the cops are guilty of a crime, but there is no way that you can watch that video and read the text of what cops are NOT to do and think there wasn't probable cause for arrest.

And what's funny is that you have NO IDEA what evidence was presented to the grand jury or if they "got it right" because the proceedings haven't been unsealed. So, for example, if the grand jury was not provided instruction/evidence that the cop violated procedure in using a choke hold then there was no way for them to find "probable cause for arrest." In short, it's ignorant -- in this case -- to say the grand jury knew more or acted correctly because you don't have access to the proceedings.

 

[Wild Bill]

That's not what I meant. I didn't mean it's okay to kill him because he's already close to death. I meant a relatively small amount of force was enough to push him over the edge because his heart was in such poor condition to begin with. There's nothing in that video that shocks me into thinking "OMG THEY'RE KILLING THIS GUY." It looks like a reasonable takedown until, next thing you know it, the man is dead.

The officer continued to ride him like a bull and did not release the choke even after he went down and clearly not getting up. If the victim was threatening an officer or the officer didn't have another officer there to help him, I could see him not letting go of the choke hold b/c he has to protect himself. That wasn't the case. He had a ton of support and this guy was not a threat to anyone. The cuffs would have went on just as easy if he let him go as soon as he hit the ground.

 

[wizards8507]

Woah woah woah... who said anything about "murder"?

NJNP, like a hundred times.

 

[wizards8507]

If I'm running a haunted house, and I yell "BOO!" at a guy and he has a heart attack, do I get indicted for negligent homicide? "Take the victim as you find him" and that, right?

What if the haunted house employee policy says you're only allowed to yell "arrrrrrgh" and not "BOO"?

 

[Wild Bill]

If I'm running a haunted house, and I yell "BOO!" at a guy and he has a heart attack, do I get indicted for negligent homicide? "Take the victim as you find him" and that, right?

What if the haunted house employee policy says you're only allowed to yell "arrrrrrgh" and not "BOO"?

Not criminally. Generally, criminal liability doesn't attach to a person without the proper mens rea - you need a guilty mind.

 

[calvegas04]

This actually happened to me. I bought a BB gun at a Walmart when I was about 17 and made the mistake of taking it out of the box in the car in the parking lot. Someone called the police about a "kid with a gun outside the Walmart." I was ripped from the vehicle and thrown to the ground with some pretty good bumps and bruises but I didn't cry police brutality. Thank God I wasn't fired on but guns were drawn and pointed at me.

Don't worry, I'm gonna go lay down in the road for the injustice that happened to you. #NoJusticeLaydown

 

[kmoose]

The one who put him in a chokehold because that was the cause of death

The chokehold was not necessarily the cause of death. The coroner's report found that compression of the neck, compression of the chest, and "prone positioning during physical restraint by police" caused his death.

 

[Wingman Ray]

Ferguson, the cop was 100% innocent. This cop was guilty. And an arrogant sob. I realize the dude was a lot bigger than he was but he had backup and could have let up when the dude was down. This is police brutality. And the fact that the arrogant sob WAVED at the camera was enough. No person committing an "accident" would do that.

problem is that you indict one office and you have the country's law enforcement questioning if they are next if they do their job.

 

[Hammer Of The Gods]

Ferguson, the cop was 100% innocent. This cop was guilty. And an arrogant sob. I realize the dude was a lot bigger than he was but he had backup and could have let up when the dude was down. This is police brutality. And the fact that the arrogant sob WAVED at the camera was enough. No person committing an "accident" would do that.

problem is that you indict one office and you have the country's law enforcement questioning if they are next if they do their job.

Totally agree with you.

Did anyone watch Hannity last night? I'm a conservative, but I wanted to choke his ass out last night. He was telling everyone the difference between a choke hold and a headlock because he has been trained in martial arts...what the f***k is that? I wrestled in high school. I wrestled some chump and was actually able to get a 'head in arm' on him. We hit the mat, he wiggled, I clamped down....next thing I know, dude is snoring. Totally choked him out, not using a choke hold. Hannity was a complete jackass last night.

I'm not saying this cop needs to go away for 25 years. There just should be a severe punishment.

 

[GoIrish41]

Totally agree with you.

Did anyone watch Hannity last night? I'm a conservative, but I wanted to choke his ass out last night. He was telling everyone the difference between a choke hold and a headlock because he has been trained in martial arts...what the f***k is that? I wrestled in high school. I wrestled some chump and was actually able to get a 'head in arm' on him. We hit the mat, he wiggled, I clamped down....next thing I know, dude is snoring. Totally choked him out, not using a choke hold. Hannity was a complete jackass last night.

I'm not saying this cop needs to go away for 25 years. There just should be a severe punishment.

That is how I feel about Hannity all the time. LOL
It is insane that this cop is noy going to trial

 

[GoIrish41]

Not surprised in either case. Saddened by both

 

[Nick Setta]

The NYPD is pathetic.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Lake Shore

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

Flavor Flav in Ferguson.

Surprised we haven't seen Chuck D yet.

 

[NoJusticeNoPeace]

This is why a special prosecutor was needed.

McCulloch supporter: McCulloch never intended to indict Wilson | MSNBC

Jeff Roorda, business manager for the St. Louis Police Officers Association, appeared on Wednesday night’s ‘All In’ to discuss the ways police officers are viewed by the people they are tasked with protecting. During the course of the conversation, Roorda tells Chris Hayes that St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney, Bob McCulloch only convened a Grand Jury to “oblige the public outcry when he didn’t believe there was enough to charge.”

Below is a transcript of that conversation:

HAYES: Mr. Roorda, if this is the best process that will can be offered,

will you commit here on air for calling for Bob McCulloch to pursue this

process in all subsequent cases?

ROORDA: The process that Bob McCulloch used in this case was different.

It was to oblige the public outcry when he didn`t believe there was enough

to charge. He didn`t believe that the evidence led to the conclusion that

the officer violated the law, but he still took it –

HAYES: If it`s a good process, should the prosecutor demand that process -

ROORDA: He still provided all the evidence to the grand jurors and they

reached the same conclusion that he did.

HAYES: If the process is a good process, should the prosecutor always use

that process, yes or no?

ROORDA: No, he shouldn`t have used in this case. He should have said

there`s not enough evidence to pursue a charge here. He should have never

taken it to the grand jury.

 

[Rhode Irish]

This is why a special prosecutor was needed.

McCulloch supporter: McCulloch never intended to indict Wilson | MSNBC

I've been saying this. At least this one asshole is stupid enough to admit it. Between this and his idiotic letter to the NFL I can't figure out why they keep letting him say stuff.

My little bro is out there with the people tonight in NYC. Wish I could be there.