Rioting in St Louis

Status
Not open for further replies.

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
love that you're pushing on this after pulling out a report written in 2006 to argue that the crime drop had ended. i'll tell you what, you can go look at the data directly: Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Data Analysis Tools - NCVS Victimization Analysis Tool (NVAT)

You... again... YOU... were the one that said that it dropped from the 90's, not me. So the data I provided (from the same fuqing site you linked) is accurately showing that you are incorrect.

Listen, the burden isn't on me to prove you wrong. You are the one that hasn't provided any actual information outside of the link you just provided, which was the SAME one I referenced in my post. So go ahead... prove me wrong. If you are so sure and have so much data to back up your claims then do it.
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
There's also a growing number of people who believe in aliens, Santa Claus, and that Pete Carroll never cheated at USC.

Seriously? Comparing legal experts to that? False equivalence much?

If you have a legitimate argument then post it but that is a bullshit post.

trolling.jpg
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Seriously? Comparing legal experts to that? False equivalence much?

If you have a legitimate argument then post it but that is a bullshit post.

I wouldn't necessarily say that. I mean, I think what kmoose was trying to point out was that you can find anyone to dispute anything.

There are legal experts that believe that Brown v Board of Education was unconstitutional. Doesn't mean that anyone thinks they are correct, but just because someone is a legal expert doesn't make their opinion accurate. The reality is that those people, and most likely the legal "experts" refuting this grand jury, are more rabble rouser than actual concerned citizen.
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
You... again... YOU... were the one that said that it dropped from the 90's, not me. So the data I provided (from the same fuqing site you linked) is accurately showing that you are incorrect.

Listen, the burden isn't on me to prove you wrong. You are the one that hasn't provided any actual information outside of the link you just provided, which was the SAME one I referenced in my post. So go ahead... prove me wrong. If you are so sure and have so much data to back up your claims then do it.

haha. there are about 800 links, you happened to pick the one that was published in 2006. you're like that annoying 8 year old who gets caught saying something wrong and decides the best approach is to double down and insist that he's right. funny. anyway here's one of those 800 links that shows data on the crime drop *that doesn't stop in 2005*. enjoy: The Public Intellectual » A crime puzzle
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
I wouldn't necessarily say that. I mean, I think what kmoose was trying to point out was that you can find anyone to dispute anything.

There are legal experts that believe that Brown v Board of Education was unconstitutional. Doesn't mean that anyone thinks they are correct, but just because someone is a legal expert doesn't make their opinion accurate. The reality is that those people, and most likely the legal "experts" refuting this grand jury, are more rabble rouser than actual concerned citizen.

Wooly I respectfully disagree, there has been a number of former federal prosecutors (including one who is a Stanford Law professor) as well as other legal experts who have done this before (grand juries) and say that what the prosecutor did was highly unusual and he cross examined other witnesses but not officer Wilson for his testimony though there were numerous holes in it. Do I think that Officer Wilson should have been indicted, I don't know, and I highly doubt he ever would have been convicted in a full trial but the truth is that the prosecutor had no interest in getting an indictment based off of his questioning of witnesses that disagreed with officer Wilson and his lack of questioning of Officer Wilson.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
Wooly I respectfully disagree, there has been a number of former federal prosecutors (including one who is a Stanford Law professor) as well as other legal experts who have done this before (grand juries) and say that what the prosecutor did was highly unusual and he cross examined other witnesses but not officer Wilson for his testimony though there were numerous holes in it. Do I think that Officer Wilson should have been indicted, I don't know, and I highly doubt he ever would have been convicted in a full trial but the truth is that the prosecutor had no interest in getting an indictment based off of his questioning of witnesses that disagreed with officer Wilson and his lack of questioning of Officer Wilson.

Unusual does not equal "conspiracy". Here's one for the legal "experts":

If the Prosecutor was so determined NOT to indict, why did he present witnesses whose testimony differed from Wilson's? He's not obligated to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to just omit the witnesses that might harm Wilson's case?
 

connor_in

Oh Yeeaah!!!
Messages
11,433
Reaction score
1,006
Why is it that no one ever points out Asian on Asian crime?



(just trying to turn down the pressure in here guys)
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
haha. there are about 800 links, you happened to pick the one that was published in 2006. you're like that annoying 8 year old who gets caught saying something wrong and decides the best approach is to double down and insist that he's right. funny. anyway here's one of those 800 links that shows data on the crime drop *that doesn't stop in 2005*. enjoy: The Public Intellectual » A crime puzzle

So I learned two things with this post:

1) You have sank to name calling and personal attacks.

2) You still can't find a link that shows black on black murder has steadily declined since the 90's. The link you gave is a poorly googled article that has nothing but a crime rate table for the entire population showing murder rate falling, it makes zero reference to black on black crime whatsoever.

Anything else? Why don't you do some more googling and show an actual graph that shows black on black murder rates falling consistently from 1990-2014. Show me that, as that is your claim. That burden is on you and you haven't shown a damn thing.

Edit - If there are 800 links, then show me the one that proves your point. Sounds pretty easy to do if its that simple, right?
 
Last edited:

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
Unusual does not equal "conspiracy". Here's one for the legal "experts":

If the Prosecutor was so determined NOT to indict, why did he present witnesses whose testimony differed from Wilson's? He's not obligated to do that. Wouldn't it make more sense to just omit the witnesses that might harm Wilson's case?

He did present them but he also questioned them more on their discrepancies, while never questioning Officer Wilson on his discrepancies. He placed his emphasis on what he wanted. Also if he never presented witnesses that disagreed such as Dorian Johnson who was there then it would have caused a national outrage, and probably would have led to even more protests before we even got the verdict.

I highly doubt the prosecutor even wanted to bring this to the grand jury and it shows.
1. It his highly unusual to present all the evidence. This isn't a trial, and he treated it as such. The bar isn't beyond a reasonable doubt it is probably cause and he played both prosecutor and defense lawyer.
2. He grilled the people who's testimony doesn't match Officer Wilson's
3. Doesn't even question Officer Wilson on discrepancies in his account. How can a prosecutor not do that. The options are incompetence or he doesn't believe that Officer Wilson is guilty and thus giving him a pass. How else do you explain not doing a basic part of his job? He forgot?
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
Here you go, Autry. Even though the burden is on you and all you have provided is a) the same link I referenced and you have been mocking and b) an article that not once references black on black crime, I will provide you more data.

Here is a graph illustrating the murder rate per race. Since over 90% of black murders are committed by another black party, how can you honestly say that black on black crime has been drastically falling since the 90's?

Black-on-Black-Crime-Statistics--620x530.jpg


‘Race Wars’ Part 1: The Shocking Data on Black-on-Black Crime | Video | TheBlaze.com
 

Polish Leppy 22

Well-known member
Messages
6,594
Reaction score
2,009
Here you go, Autry. Even though the burden is on you and all you have provided is a) the same link I referenced and you have been mocking and b) an article that not once references black on black crime, I will provide you more data.

Here is a graph illustrating the murder rate per race. Since over 90% of black murders are committed by another black party, how can you honestly say that black on black crime has been drastically falling since the 90's?

Black-on-Black-Crime-Statistics--620x530.jpg


‘Race Wars’ Part 1: The Shocking Data on Black-on-Black Crime | Video | TheBlaze.com

On top of that, he still hasn't been able to identify the "institutional mechanisms" that are oppressing minorities, nor has he identified the reforms needed to eradicate it.
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
So I learned two things with this post:

1) You have sank to name calling and personal attacks.

2) You still can't find a link that shows black on black murder has steadily declined since the 90's. The link you gave is a poorly googled article that has nothing but a crime rate table for the entire population showing murder rate falling, it makes zero reference to black on black crime whatsoever.

Anything else? Why don't you do some more googling and show an actual graph that shows black on black murder rates falling consistently from 1990-2014. Show me that, as that is your claim. That burden is on you and you haven't shown a damn thing.

"I'm right! look, here's data from 9 years ago."

nope, you're wrong. here's the data, look for yourself.

"I'm right! I don't have to look at the data, you have to look at the data"

ok, here's the data in a graph.

"I'm still right! I just need to change the question slightly, but I'm still right. I don't believe the actual data that you pointed me to. I don't believe the people who analyze that data. you have to find another way to prove I'm wrong."

ok, now that you've changed the question here's another page that focuses specifically on black on black crime: The Myth of the Black-on-Black Crime Epidemic | Demos

I know you won't give up, like that annoying 8 year old. it's difficult to be wrong. but here are some more tips: 1) change the question again so that you can be right. 2) don't actually look at the data that I've sent you in multiple forms - if you don't look, it doesn't really exist. 3) try to find at least a couple words in one of your sentences that is partially right and focus on those - or find one or two that could be misconstrued and focus on those. 4) just keep insisting you're right. in a war of attrition, you've got 9,500 posts and i've got work to do so you win that one.
 

irish4ever

Well-known member
Messages
3,792
Reaction score
896
White people aren't calling for change and accusing blacks of systematically trying to kill them. White people aren't burning down buildings in any town because a white man was shot by a black cop (which believe it or not, happens). The reason that white on white crime isn't an issue here is because white people aren't trying to accuse other races of oppression. If white people were doing that, then I think other races should tell them to work on themselves first.

A completely irrelevant point.

Excellent!
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
Here you go, Autry. Even though the burden is on you and all you have provided is a) the same link I referenced and you have been mocking and b) an article that not once references black on black crime, I will provide you more data.

Here is a graph illustrating the murder rate per race. Since over 90% of black murders are committed by another black party, how can you honestly say that black on black crime has been drastically falling since the 90's?

Black-on-Black-Crime-Statistics--620x530.jpg


‘Race Wars’ Part 1: The Shocking Data on Black-on-Black Crime | Video | TheBlaze.com

I didn't even think you would go back to your original approach of assuming history stopped in 2005. this is innovative, even for you. well done.
 

woolybug25

#1 Vineyard Vines Fan
Messages
17,677
Reaction score
3,018
"I'm right! look, here's data from 9 years ago."

nope, you're wrong. here's the data, look for yourself.

"I'm right! I don't have to look at the data, you have to look at the data"

ok, here's the data in a graph.

"I'm still right! I just need to change the question slightly, but I'm still right. I don't believe the actual data that you pointed me to. I don't believe the people who analyze that data. you have to find another way to prove I'm wrong."

ok, now that you've changed the question here's another page that focuses specifically on black on black crime: The Myth of the Black-on-Black Crime Epidemic | Demos

I know you won't give up, like that annoying 8 year old. it's difficult to be wrong. but here are some more tips: 1) change the question again so that you can be right. 2) don't actually look at the data that I've sent you in multiple forms - if you don't look, it doesn't really exist. 3) try to find at least a couple words in one of your sentences that is partially right and focus on those - or find one or two that could be misconstrued and focus on those. 4) just keep insisting you're right. in a war of attrition, you've got 9,500 posts and i've got work to do so you win that one.

You are the one crying about the Justice Dept not having the last 9 years on their site, not me. You are the one making the claim and putting the number starting in the 90's. Here's the reality, you still haven't shown a single graph, a single report or a single article that proves your point. There is no evidence that black on black crime is still decreasing. None whatsoever. In fact, the article you just linked has a graph that proves you are wrong. It also... ironically.... is missing all data after 2005. The exact thing that you are accusing me of oppressing.

833-FF-chart.jpg


So thank you for proving my point. All why making yourself look like an ignorant @ss that doesn't know what he is talking about.
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
You are the one crying about the Justice Dept not having the last 9 years on their site, not me. You are the one making the claim and putting the number starting in the 90's. Here's the reality, you still haven't shown a single graph, a single report or a single article that proves your point. There is no evidence that black on black crime is still decreasing. None whatsoever. In fact, the article you just linked has a graph that proves you are wrong. It also... ironically.... is missing all data after 2005. The exact thing that you are accusing me of oppressing.

833-FF-chart.jpg


So thank you for proving my point. All why making yourself look like an ignorant @ss that doesn't know what he is talking about.

beautiful. you went with #2, don't look at the data and it doesn't exist. if you read the post you would have found data that went through 2011. again though, your strength is in the war of attrition. I seriously have to work. your tantrum is awesome to watch though.
 

Woneone

New member
Messages
1,445
Reaction score
125
Here is a comment from Lisa Bloom (MSNBC Legal Analyst and Yale Law grad.)

Ferguson Coverage: MSNBC | Hot 107.9

There has been a growing number of lawyers who thought that the prosecutor took it easy on Wilson and who believes that the prosecutor didn't do his job to his fullest abilities/didn't want an indictment.

It's not that he didn't want an indictment, it's that as a prosecuting DA, he understood that he should have stopped this before it even went to the Grand Jury. There wasn't close to enough to get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. A great summary about this, from a former prosecuting DA, was posted on ND Nation (maybe this was already linked, but here is the text):

From Here - Any emphasis added was mine.

As a former "Major Violent Crimes" prosecutor and current defense attorney, I cannot recall ever hearing about a grand jury proceeding where the prosecuting attorney presented every shred of evidence and every single witness (including expert witnesses) to the jury.

On CNN, Sonny Hostins and Mark Garagos and Jeffery Toobin are claiming that this irregular grand jury presentation was an indication of bad faith and "stacking the deck" in favor of Officer Wilson.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

The reality is that the investigation into this shooting will go down as arguably the most transparent, thorough criminal investigation of an alleged act of police misconduct in the history of our nation.

We now have transcriptions of every eye-witness account of the shooting. We have transcriptions of the statements of every major investigating witness. We have a transcription of the defendant's statement. We have all of the photos; all of the police reports; all of the DNA analysis; all of the CSI reports; and three separate M.E. reports.

What's more, throughout this investigation, the State investigators worked hand-in-hand with Federal authorities.

The takeaway from the evidence is so obvious, it is not open to rational debate: the criminal case against Darren Wilson was non-prosecutable. No prosecutor--no matter how talented or persuasive--could possibly overcome Officer Wilson's presumption of innocence, beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. Given the weight of the evidence, any prosecution of Officer Wilson would have been unethical.

The third-party eyewitness testimony in this case is a mess of inconsistency. Much of it is demonstrably false. Some of it, however, *is* consistent with the statements of Officer Wilson. What's more, the eyewitness testimony that is consistent with Officer Wilson's statement, also happens to comport with the physical evidence. That presents an insurmountable hurdle for a prosecution.

If this were any other case, in which the prosecuting authority was not facing intense national scrutiny and the threat of mob violence, this case never would have gone to a grand jury. This case would have been "no-filed" by the D.A.'s office based upon the conclusion that either: (1) the evidence supports a finding of justifiable homicide, or (2) given the totality of the evidence, there is no reasonable likelihood of successful prosecution.

However, had Bob McCullough simply "no-filed" this case (which, it should be noted, happens regularly), the media and social justice agitators would have vigorously protested. They could have justifiably complained that one D.A. made a decision behind closed doors, with the intent of shielding a police officer from justice.


So, Mr. McCullough took the only politically viable option open to him: he presented the investigation in its entirety to the grand jury, and then published the proceeding. This option provided maximum transparency.

On the other hand, this option placed Mr. McCullough in a bizarre position. He decided to take a case to the grand jury, knowing that even if he could make the case for probable cause, he could never make the case for guilt, beyond and to the exclusion of every reasonable doubt. When a prosecutor does not believe he/she can prove a case, it is the prosecutor's ethical obligation not to proceed.

Unfortunately, the threat of violence and the unprecedented scrutiny of the case all but foreclosed the possibility of Mr. McCullough proceeding in the normal fashion. I sincerely believe he proceeded in the best way possible, given the circumstances.

Yet, nevertheless, we have Sonny Hostins on CNN, hyperventilating that Mr. McCullough should have more persuasively framed the case by *not* presenting all of the evidence. She would have preferred for Mr. McCullough to have only presented a sliver of the evidence, in order to obtain a finding of probable cause. She prefers this approach, knowing full well that the evidence does not support a finding of guilt. In other words, in the mind of Ms. Hostins (a former prosecutor), the State should have proceeded in a less transparent fashion, in order to charge a defendant that the State had reason to believe was innocent.

This mindset is unbecoming of an attorney who has sworn an oath to uphold the Constitution. It is doubly unbecoming of a former prosecutor, who has taken the additional oath of upholding justice.

These are scary times, when the leviathan of modern 24/7 media presents "experts" who advocate for arresting and charging individuals despite the weight of the evidence, all while standing against the backdrop of a mob threatening violence.

And yet, these are hopeful times as well. Despite the pressure; despite the threats; despite the unprecedented attempt to intimidate; 12 American citizens showed up, day after day, and diligently sifted through the evidence, making a sober decision based upon the facts and the law.

The process worked. *That* is justice.

Also seen on NDNation, this video. As another poster stated, I'd buy this guy a beer:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/T7MAO7McNKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
Last edited:

Booslum31

New member
Messages
5,687
Reaction score
187
It's not that he didn't want an indictment, it's that as a prosecuting DA, he understood that he should have stopped this before it even went to the Grand Jury. There wasn't close to enough to get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. A great summary about this, from a former prosecuting DA, was posted on ND Nation (maybe this was already linked, but here is the text):

From Here - Any emphasis added was mine.



Also seen on NDNation, this video. As another poster stated, I'd buy this guy a beer:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/T7MAO7McNKE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Absolutely love this guy. His articulation of the real problem was spot on though those who really need to see it won't watch it. Thanks for posting
 

autry_denson

Active member
Messages
514
Reaction score
150
Absolutely love this guy. His articulation of the real problem was spot on though those who really need to see it won't watch it. Thanks for posting

He also terminated a cop a couple months ago for unnecessarily killing a citizen. He received a vote of no confidence from the officers on his force.

I like him too, and happen to have had some dialogue with him. He's smart, he's fair, and he cares about people being killed in his city. that came through in this clip which people seem to love.

what isn't discussed on the right wing sites playing this clip is that he has proven that if an officer behaves in an overly aggressive way and kill someone, the blame will not automatically be placed on the dead victim. if someone had mentioned Chief Flynn a month ago, before this interview and after his officers voted no confidence, a whole bunch of you would not have liked him very much.
 

IrishLax

Something Witty
Staff member
Messages
37,545
Reaction score
28,995
I guess I have to post this again.

B3TPROECcAAT_yc.jpg

You do know that everything but the middle section is obviously inaccurate with any attempt at just basic critical thinking, right? Or does someone need to spell it out for you point by point?
 

pkt77242

IPA Man
Messages
10,805
Reaction score
719
It's not that he didn't want an indictment, it's that as a prosecuting DA, he understood that he should have stopped this before it even went to the Grand Jury. There wasn't close to enough to get a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. A great summary about this, from a former prosecuting DA, was posted on ND Nation (maybe this was already linked, but here is the text):

From Here - Any emphasis added was mine.

So you literally just said we should believe some guy on NDnation over legal experts? That is your defense. LOL.

I have also stated that the Officer Wilson was probably not guilty of any crime but the fact is that the way the prosecutor presented the case was slanted. How can you argue against that. He did not cross examine Wilson on any inconsistencies in his testimony, did not ask him why parts of his story changed from the day of the shooting to his testimony but the prosecutor did grill other witnesses who had inconsistencies in their story or made changes from their initial statement. I get the fact that Officer Wilson was never going to be found guilty of a crime, but the prosecutor couldn't even claim to be fair and balanced during the grand jury proceedings, and that is more likely to contribute to ongoing claims that Officer Wilson was being protected even if he didn't need to be protected. It is the fact that the prosecutor didn't even try that is going to add fuel to the fire.
 

kmoose

Banned
Messages
10,298
Reaction score
1,181
That black on black crime is relevant.

Funny how people only bring up black on black crime in a negative, non-constructive way when a white on black crime occurs.

The only reason I have seen anyone bring up black on black crime, is to refute the idea that white on black crime is an epidemic, or some other similar contention.
 

Woneone

New member
Messages
1,445
Reaction score
125
So you literally just said we should believe some guy on NDnation over legal experts? That is your defense. LOL.

I have also stated that the Officer Wilson was probably not guilty of any crime but the fact is that the way the prosecutor presented the case was slanted. How can you argue against that. He did not cross examine Wilson on any inconsistencies in his testimony, did not ask him why parts of his story changed from the day of the shooting to his testimony but the prosecutor did grill other witnesses who had inconsistencies in their story or made changes from their initial statement. I get the fact that Officer Wilson was never going to be found guilty of a crime, but the prosecutor couldn't even claim to be fair and balanced during the grand jury proceedings, and that is more likely to contribute to ongoing claims that Officer Wilson was being protected even if he didn't need to be protected. It is the fact that the prosecutor didn't even try that is going to add fuel to the fire.

Legal Experts? Ok, let's do this:

Syracuse, NY -- Onondaga County District Attorney William Fitzpatrick - Fitzpatrick concluded that the evidence didn't support criminal charges against the officer.
• A prosecutor who wanted to indict Wilson could have gotten the grand jury to do so: A prosecutor has the ability to present only evidence favorable to the case.

If St. Louis Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch had only presented witnesses who claimed Brown had his hands up in a universal sign of surrender, he could have gotten an indictment, Fitzpatrick said. But that could have been misconduct, because he was obligated to present clearly exculpatory evidence, Fitzpatrick said.

• Presenting all the evidence was the right call: Fitzpatrick credited McCulloch for releasing the grand jury testimony so he couldn't be second-guessed.

• Releasing the grand jury's findings at a different time wouldn't have stopped the violence: Fitzpatrick said some people were going to riot regardless of the outcome. Fitzpatrick said he didn't know what McCulloch's reasons were for releasing the findings when he did, but argued that someone would have leaked the findings if there had been any further delay.

Micheal Meyers - Executive DIrector of the New York Civil Rights Colation
From the angle of race relations and the law, trust is necessary and earned, not assumed. This grand jury earned its stripes, laboriously, having taken its time to focus on evidence, and ignoring racial rhetoric.

The jurors did their civic duty the old-fashioned way — they studied the evidence and applied the law to the conduct of the cop, as to whether he acted reasonably and lawfully in the circumstances he encountered Brown.

The grand jury in quarters of sanity will be heralded; they did the right thing.

David Figler, Defense Attorney, Las Vegas, NV

In reviewing the transcripts of the receipt of evidence, it appears everything was done within the letter of the law. So what went wrong?

In a phrase ironically borrowed from Spike Lee, the prosecutors (led by St. Louis County DA Bob McCulloch) did the right thing....

In Missouri, DA Bob McCulloch goes to sleep at night knowing he gave Officer Wilson the fairest Grand Jury proceeding that no law requires, but his moral drive allowed. Likely, had this degree of evidence been presented to a full Criminal Jury with defense attorneys working their magic, Wilson would have been acquitted or at least there would have been a hung jury.

Best Article, linked here, basically debunks all the "experts" you've cited point by point:

From Paul Cassell, Professor of Law at the University of Utah

You're right, you don't have to believe some guy on NDNation.

It just turns out he's right.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top