Redshirting the Freshmen class

[NewEnglandGuy]

We have limited information on BK and the staff at ND to gain much of a grasp on how they incorporate freshmen onto the field year in, year out. The sophomore class currently has 19 members with 10 eligible for a 5th year. What will the numbers look like for this years newcomers? Although some say to redshirt everyone if you can, here are negatives on redshirting and 5th years:

1. Every time a 5th year uses a scholarship it effectively takes one away from the current recruiting class. (duh)
2. With the above in mind, to continue recruiting at a high level while obtaining full classes near 20 or greater, to ask back more than five 5th years in a given year strains the 85 man limit.
3. Great players do not necessarily stay for 4 years, let alone 5 (example: Te’o – we would be lucky to retain him for 2012, to keep him an ADDITIONAL year would almost be impossible).
4. Developing depth is difficult if sophomores are needed to contribute without game time competition as freshmen (another example: our freshmen skill players at DB, RB, and WR have to play this year in order to gain experience and develop into better players for the open starting positions next season).

Having said all that, here are players I hope redshirt:

Golson – It would be nice to stagger the eligibility with Hendrix and hopefully Crist and company will take care of the job.

Koyack – The biggest TE on our team may be hard to keep on the bench though we have solid depth ahead of him. The coaches may just play him if they feel he is too much of a game changer and unlikely to be in South Bend for 5 years.

Hegarty, Hanratty, N Martin, and Prestwood – OL is a position where value can definitely be gained with more time locked in the weight room with Longo (Carrico is not on the list because he made the 2 deep, and lets be real - we will not even use all of the guys listed. It will probably be narrowed to just two).

Niklas – Again maybe too much upside, but if he is showing skill at the CAT it would be nice to stagger him and IShaq and give his body time to decide if he will stay there (if he blows up he could go back to DE...Manti already calls him Hercules).

Hounshell and Springmann – With our DL depth and the fact classmates Lynch and Tuitt will already be playing, why not save a year in case we miss on recruits and the 2012 class is light on the DL? (lighter than we already know it is going to be)

Rabasa, Grace, and Councell – The ILB guys have a ton of players ahead of them, also I really want to utilize Ben, at position he was born to play, after more strength training is under his belt. He will eventually be a house and dominant as an upperclassman.

Brindza – With all the specialists on this team, unless he really stands out on punting compared to Turk, save him. He will be a stud and help avoid 3 kickers on a team in the future as he can kick and punt.

That is 13 of the 24 in the class, and I could easily see it around 10 (again because after 4 years there is no way we would keep more than 5/6…but 10-13 would at least give the coaches options in case of late bloomers or positions of need). Also if they do end up burning a year, as some articles have talked about with Niklas and Councell on special teams, I hope they make a highlight film play or two and contribute in a big win.

Thoughts?

 

[kmoose]

One factor that is probably as big as any on-field, or roster related problem:

We all (or at least most of us) know that ND does not redshirt, in the true sense of the word. Seniors who still have eligibility left can apply for a 5th, but only if they qualify. To qualify, a player must have already graduated, AND be accepted into a post-graduate studies program at ND. So, in addition to all of the "needs" based considerations, there are also some very strict academic requirements that require an ND football player to be fully engaged in his academics, almost from day one.

 

[Domina Nostra]

All good points.

I would just say to remember that because of the 85 man roster rule, you really can't plan on giving out more than about 5-7 5th year scholies. So what is the point of red-shirting a guy that is not necessarily going to be around 5 years anyway?

Also, the coach wants to make sure he has a job, so if someone is marignally better at something, like Kyle at KOs, then I guarantee he plays.

The linemen are the only guys who almost always make sense to sit. They generally need the most time to develop physically and they are the most hit or miss in terms of recruiting.

QBs are great canidates as well, since it can be overwhelming to run an offense.

That said I would would redshirt Golson (unless Crist gets hurt), Hegarty, Hanratty, N Martin, Prestwood, and Carrico- and probably Hounshell and Springmann. I'd play everyone else if they could help the team win.

 

[NewEnglandGuy]

We all (or at least most of us) know that ND does not redshirt, in the true sense of the word. Seniors who still have eligibility left can apply for a 5th, but only if they qualify. To qualify, a player must have already graduated, AND be accepted into a post-graduate studies program at ND. So, in addition to all of the "needs" based considerations, there are also some very strict academic requirements that require an ND football player to be fully engaged in his academics, almost from day one.

All active members of this board know this information, if the word "redshirting" is going to hang up the discussion, then we can say "saving a year of eligibility" instead.

Toe May Toh vs. Toh Mah To

When Nix, Lombard, and Welch did not see action last year, we all knew exactly what was going on.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

There seems to be a strong presumption against "red-shirting" because there are too many variables involved for Kelly to count on getting that 5th year: (1) will the player be successful enough academically to get accepted to a grad program; (2) will the player bolt early for the NFL; etc.

Also, deliberately "red-shirting" a player undermines Kelly's philosophy of "best guy plays", which is presumably attractive to potential recruits.

The only kids that end up getting red-shirts are those that literally can't hope to hack it physically, such as freshman "Power" players or guys who lose a season to injury. Otherwise, Kelly prefers to blood them ASAP on Special Teams ("Power" players excepted), which has its own benefits. If Collingsworth and Jackson had been red-shirted, they wouldn't have distinguished themselves on ST, and they wouldn't now be providing critical depth in our secondary.

 

[kmoose]

All active members of this board know this information, if the word "redshirting" is going to hang up the discussion, then we can say "saving a year of eligibility" instead.

Toe May Toh vs. Toh Mah To

When Nix, Lombard, and Welch did not see action last year, we all knew exactly what was going on.

I have no hang-up with the word. My point was that it's not just that easy. As Whiskey pointed out above.......... what if you redshirt the guy, his freshman year, and he is 2 or 3 credits short of graduating at the end of his 4th year? That kid is NOT going to get a 5th year, so you basically sat him for nothing.

 

[NewEnglandGuy]

Agreed power players and QBs are the usual suspects, but Roberson, Moore, and Welch are guys that probably did not play because of the depth ahead of them rather than physical limitations. Kona was treated the same way until Ian was injured.

Kelly does love to get guys in early on special teams and I am not saying that is a bad thing. Just imagine though if Harrison played special teams his freshmen year...we would be missing the centerfielder for our D and captain of the team for dozens of coverage unit plays.

It is a great way to break guys in and give them confidence. The staff definitely weighs those options, and some guys will play while others will be held back to retain eligibility this year...but which ones?

 

[micks60]

No such thing as a "red shirt" at ND. Only 5th year players and medical redshirts after 5th year.

 

[IrishRugger2013]

No such thing as a "red shirt" at ND. Only 5th year players and medical redshirts after 5th year.

Thanks bro.

 

[GoldenDomer87]

Williams

Williams

Unless Fleming gets hurt, I don't see the need for Ishaq to play. Filer will give Fleming a blow when he needs it. At the spring game Ishaq's head was spinning and I say let's give him a year to figure it out. That Cat spot has many more reads than what Lynch or Tuitt will run into. The pass rush will be fine. Fleming lead the team in sacks last year, Lynch can provide a rush as well, and Johnson and Lewis-Moore will be in better shape to chase QBs as now they can actually get a resr with the depth we have now.

 

[BGIF]

All active members of this board know this information, if the word "redshirting" is going to hang up the discussion, then we can say "saving a year of eligibility" instead.

Toe May Toh vs. Toh Mah To

When Nix, Lombard, and Welch did not see action last year, we all knew exactly what was going on.

All active members may know this information but it still has to be repeated many times a year, every year I've been on this board. Usually because a poster tries to apply policies at Bama, OSU, UM, USC or homestate U. to ND. Last year in a press conference Kelly replied to a question on redshirting. In the next press conference he quickly noted that ND does not redshirt and he wouldn't make that mistake again. Kudos to Kmoose for reminding us of the "ND way".

Domina Nostra's reminder of the 85 man rule is also significant. Coaches didn't have to deal with that until '92. Holtz didn't have to start freshman in '88 because he had a roster packed with talent be it at OL or RB. Autry Denson became one of ND's All-Time leading rushers not because he could take it to the house but because started for he didn't have competition like Brooks, Brooks, Becton, Watters, Culver, Levens, and Bettis in his backfield. Ryan Harris got to start as an ND OL as did Sam Young because of need not because they were ready.

The lineman are traditionally the bulk (pun intended) of the 5 years for the simple development. Most 18 year old do not have the strength nor technique to go toe to toe with 22 and 23 year old men who spent 4 years in Div 1 weight rooms. Mike Gandy was 16 went he signed with ND. He sat out his freshman year and was an AA as a Senior OG.

The early to the NFL argument is overplayed at ND. It's not a common occurrence probably because of the type of student athlete ND recruits. Face it, "I'm so good I don't have to go to class" athletes are getting into ND. As for those that left early, I can think of Zorich, Ismail, Taylor (Bobby), Tuck, Fasano, Clausen, and Rudolph. There may be others but not many. Floyd flirted with an early draft but came back. Were it not for his two injuries and Weis's termination Clausen might have come back. Ismail, Taylor, Clausen, and Rudolph played as freshman. The other did not. Many of those that left ND without playing 4 season incurred a significant injury(ies) whlle there.

As for the 5th year denying a freshman scholarship that's as much nonsense as a 4th senior filling denying a slot to a freshman. Coaches have to manage their rosters within NCAA guidelines and at ND within the guidelines of ethics (players who get beaten out don't have their scholarships pulled), academics, Residential Life, and the Faculty Board which approves (or denies) 5th year requests. All athletes don't mature at the same rate. Some take longer and thus blossom later. Some never get better than their high school careers. Throw in injuries, family situations (Bullard), missions (Badger). Coaches have to constantly evaluate and project.

There's an axiom in recruiting called the One Third Rule. One third of your recruits will be starters, one third contributors, and one third will ride the bench or be lost through attrition of one sort or another. Back in the mid '90's I wrote an article on that for the Irish Recruiting Journal. I took several ND recruiting classes and noted the results 4 years later. The results corresponded. In every class there is an "anchor" recruit, usually a couple. Fifth years provide some insurance for the anchors that never develop.

 

[dshans]

I have always been bothered by the term "Redshirt" freshman – or sophomore or junior or senior. Almost as much as "sixth (or seventh) year senior." The focus is on athletics rather than academics.

Notre Dame's Architecture program is five years, so a "fifth year senior" would be applicable. Most programs are designed for a degree to be earned within four years, though five or six are allowed under certain circumstances. Health, family and other unusual circumstances come to mind, as well as consideration for double majors.

A debilitating injury that require a hospital stay the precludes completion of classes is one thing. A strained hammy that calls for crutches or a golf cart to get from dorm to classes is another.

I would rather comments from writers and TV commentators be phased as "sophomore so-and-so with four years of NCAA eligibility remaining," or some such (less clunky) thing. It's the old "student-athlete" vs "athlete-student thing.

Notre Dame, unlike other schools (think USC) does not allow Ball Room Dancing 101 as reason for granting an athletically eligible student a fifth year taking, up valued space in a classroom.

The curmudgeon hath spoken.

 

[irishog77]

Unless Fleming gets hurt, I don't see the need for Ishaq to play. Filer will give Fleming a blow when he needs it. At the spring game Ishaq's head was spinning and I say let's give him a year to figure it out. That Cat spot has many more reads than what Lynch or Tuitt will run into. The pass rush will be fine. Fleming lead the team in sacks last year, Lynch can provide a rush as well, and Johnson and Lewis-Moore will be in better shape to chase QBs as now they can actually get a resr with the depth we have now.

Except an elite-level talent guy with an NFL body (particularly playing a darling of a position in the NFL right now) is tough to keep around for 5 years, let alone 4. Guys like Ishaq need to get on the field. Somebody like Golson (without an NFL body or game) on the other hand, I'm fine with redshirting. I'll go ahead and bet anything right now that Golson will not leave school early. So I say redshirt a guy like him.

 

[irishlaw77]

I thought Prestwood had to sit out this year no matter what due to his transfer. Is that wrong?

 

[irishog77]

I thought Prestwood had to sit out this year no matter what due to his transfer. Is that wrong?

Yeah, Prestwood is automatically on the list anyway.

 

[micks60]

I thought Prestwood had to sit out this year no matter what due to his transfer. Is that wrong?

You are correct.

 

[Old Man Mike]

Although Coach pays attention to everything, I don't think that he pays much attention to this. Kelly has said that if you're the best man, you will play. I've yet to catch him lying about these things, so I believe him. Often last year, Kelly said that he did not want to play a certain player, but that his performance in practice might force him to do so [Kona is the best example of that actually happening, but Collingsworth is another, and, I believe, Spond is another]. Kelly ended up roughly splitting the ones who got in vs the ones who did not---that alone indicates that there is not a strong strategy of sitting freshmen out.

It IS true that O-Linemen are prime candidates for sitting [Michigan has been almost universal in not getting frosh linemen on the field]. One MIGHT see Hegarty displace Carrico on the two-deep just because of outstanding talent, and maybe even get on the field in preparation for next year's line repairs. But even in a case like Koyack, where we are loaded beyond sanity, I would not be staggered to see Coach play Ben if he stood out enough. That is how you motivate a young stud to develop as far as he can, and, while doing so, crush a defensive player violently in the Rodeo drill.

Kelly is going to juggle multiple dimensions on all decisions; that's who the man is. But the main thing is going to be: is that player outplaying the other guys at that position. The only game you have to win is the one you're playing, not the one four years from now. Foresight is required but Kelly's holistic management and recruiting flexibility will never leave a bare cupboard, like we have seen too often in the past.

 

[Irish in StPete]

Great post great responses

Great post great responses

What a great post---what a difference from ones likee---
who will be the first guy out of the tunnel in 2014.

Thank you New England and all the others---great reading.
Even made me think.

 

[NDinL.A.]

Nice list by the OP.

One thing that maybe some people are forgetting or did not know is that at the open session of practice the other day, there were LOTS of freshmen on the special teams first and second string units. Some freshmen on the first string were Troy Niklas (3 diff teams), Cam McD, Davaris Daniels, Eilar Hardy, and Kyle Brindza (in competition for the 1st string anyway). And there were lots of freshmen who could be one injury away from playing special teams if starters get hurt (guys like Farley, Councell, Koyack, the Atkinsons, etc), as they are on the 2nd team. And that is just in the first week. Some guys may be moved up the depth chart.

As has been mentioned, Kelly is going to put freshman on the field, even if it's only for special teams, if he thinks it's going to help him win games. Guys like Daniel Smith, Collinsworth, and Jackson only played special teams, thus burning a year. But they were all standouts on those teams, so they played. So I wouldn't count on a lot of those freshmen, aside from the linemen, never getting time in a game. I think we'll see the following freshmen play for sure:

Lynch
GA III
Tuitt
Ishaq
McDaniels
Brindza
Daniels
Niklas
Koyack

Very Possible, if not likely:
Josh Atk.
Golson
Counsell
Rabasa
Hardy
Farley

And a lot of that has to do with special teams...

 

[GoldenDomer87]

Nice list by the OP.

One thing that maybe some people are forgetting or did not know is that at the open session of practice the other day, there were LOTS of freshmen on the special teams first and second string units. Some freshmen on the first string were Troy Niklas (3 diff teams), Cam McD, Davaris Daniels, Eilar Hardy, and Kyle Brindza (in competition for the 1st string anyway). And there were lots of freshmen who could be one injury away from playing special teams if starters get hurt (guys like Farley, Councell, Koyack, the Atkinsons, etc), as they are on the 2nd team. And that is just in the first week. Some guys may be moved up the depth chart.

As has been mentioned, Kelly is going to put freshman on the field, even if it's only for special teams, if he thinks it's going to help him win games. Guys like Daniel Smith, Collinsworth, and Jackson only played special teams, thus burning a year. But they were all standouts on those teams, so they played. So I wouldn't count on a lot of those freshmen, aside from the linemen, never getting time in a game. I think we'll see the following freshmen play for sure:

Lynch
GA III
Tuitt
Ishaq
McDaniels
Brindza
Daniels
Niklas
Koyack

Very Possible, if not likely:
Josh Atk.
Golson
Counsell
Rabasa
Hardy
Farley

And a lot of that has to do with special teams...

Great list. Don't think Rabasa will play though. I think Springmann will see playing time (staff is raving about him and II guys are high on him as well).

 

[NewEnglandGuy]

Good discussion.

I understand ND does it different but besides linemen some guys will get held out. I really hope Golson does not find the field because if we are healthy hopefully we will not need him this year (and I DONT want Hendrix transferring). Without a QB recruit in the 2012 class, it would be convenient to to allow him to fill that spot.

Unless he is a world beater...if he plays it will really show me something in how the staff has evaluated him.

 

[NewEnglandGuy]

SIAP but a few days ago Keith Arnold had a similar article to this topic. With BKs comments we can be assured half of the class will not play (which is a great decision...bring on the Kool-Aid!).

Handicapping playing time for the freshman | Inside the Irish