Quarterback Controversy 2016

[koonja]

Team Malik.

 

[IrishLion]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">ICYMI: I summed up <a href="https://twitter.com/DKizer_14">@DKizer_14</a>'s outstanding season with charts! <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/NDFB?src=hash">#NDFB</a> <a href="https://t.co/BUZyK8PCGE">https://t.co/BUZyK8PCGE</a> <a href="https://t.co/NkqyfuF5uM">pic.twitter.com/NkqyfuF5uM</a></p>— Jude S. (@andrewwinn) <a href="https://twitter.com/andrewwinn/status/685088664519598081">January 7, 2016</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

 

[irishfan]

Love what Kizer did, but I think it's going to be Malik.

I posted this before, but I simply don't think a healthy Zaire leads this team to anything worse than 10-2 this past year as well. We didn't have a single win at the end of the year where Kizer carried the team. That's not a knock on him by any means. He did better than anyone could have expected.

Wins over Georgia Tech, UMASS, USC, Navy, Temple, Pitt, Wake, and BC are not very impressive. Again, not a knock on Kizer. He certainly kept us in the games against Clemson and Stanford. He pretty much played flawlessly against Stanford minus the one fumble.

I just don't think he did anything that Zaire wouldn't have also been able to do. He already beat out Kizer once for the job. He seems like both a better passer/thrower in the 2.5 games we were able to see him play for. I just think it's going to be Malik.

 

[IrishLion]

Two things amaze me about the above chart:

1. Holy DeShone. We've been clamoring for that famed Kelly QB-guru situation, and we finally got it. Kelly's most productive QB was a redshirt frosh that had no business even thinking about being a starter heading into the season (sounds an awful lot like Tony Pike at UC, circa 2008). And yet here he his, exiting 2015 as Kelly's best ND QB yet, injury issues around him and all.

2. Holy Tommy Rees. Every time I see something like this, I'm still amazed at what Rees was able to do despite his limitations. He had zero mobility and barely had an arm, and yet he was *barely* behind Golson's total yardage mark. Imagine if you could have put Rees' mind inside of Golson's body... Frankenquarterback would have been a world-beater.

 

[IrishLax]

One thing that's always a hilarious mental exercise for me is comparing Andrew Luck's RS frosh season to Kizer's.

They have almost identical build/athleticism, but obviously played in different schemes and Kizer probably had objectively better weapons... still, Kizer's metrics/production blow Luck out of the water.

 

[ND NYC]

anyone else take note of Kelly go up to Malik at end of"A Season With" and say "be ready"?

 

[koonja]

anyone else take note of Kelly go up to Malik at end of"A Season With" and say "be ready"?

Didn't see it, but can someone elaborate? Is there solid context here?

 

[kmoose]

Wins over Georgia Tech, UMASS, USC, Navy, Temple, Pitt, Wake, and BC are not very impressive.

I'm not saying it's going to be Kizer, but a win against the abomination that was Texas this year WAS impressive?

I mean, if you are going to downplay Kizer, because of the quality of opponents, then you have to apply the same filter to Zaire.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Didn't look like Zaire had any plans of winning game 2

 

[Irish Insanity]

Didn't look like Zaire had any plans of winning game 2

So you're saying team 127 behind Zaire had the potential to be worse than it ended up with Kizer.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Didn't look like Zaire had any plans of winning game 2

Don't be that guy.

We were winning 19-14 when Zaire got hurt. Zaire had us driving and Procise scored from 24 yards out the very next play. I guess we should give credit to Kizer for that one. Anyhow, one play after Zaire was hurt we were up 26 to 14.

Kizer came in and did a good job given the circumstances and we won. He made a great play to help us win the game. But I have no doubt that we would've won if Zaire had not gotten hurt.

 

[ND NYC]

Didn't see it, but can someone elaborate? Is there solid context here?

elaborate? he went up to malik and said "be ready"; it was after the game, as they were all talking to each other, hugs, farewells, the obligatory joe schimdt in tears scene, etc...not sure what "context" you are looking for/need?

 

[IrishLax]

Didn't look like Zaire had any plans of winning game 2

We had a two score 4th quarter lead?

 

[stlnd01]

Kizer seems like a guy with very little downside. He's proven himself a very competent QB and he's not going to make a lot of mistakes. He needs to get better at short/finesse passing and you could see him get antsy in the pocket against strong pressure. Those are both things that can improve with time.

Zaire probably has more upside and may be more dangerous as a runner. He also seems to be a remarkable leader/personality, which counts for a lot in college football.

I'd say we need both of them. Spring will be interesting. But I'd suspect it's still zaire's job to lose. Meanwhile we also need to persuade Wimbush to redshirt.

 

[stlnd01]

.

 

[irishfan]

I'm not saying it's going to be Kizer, but a win against the abomination that was Texas this year WAS impressive?

I mean, if you are going to downplay Kizer, because of the quality of opponents, then you have to apply the same filter to Zaire.

True. However, that was a arguably a better game statistically than Kizer had all season. And that was his 2nd career start in the opening week when offenses tend to be stagnant.

Kizer's games against Clemson, Temple, and Stanford were all comparable but included turnovers.

 

[Wingman Ray]

I just cant see how Kizer can lose the job. How do you take a guy who has had a full year of GAME experience and put in a guy who played 4 total quarters of real game time? Short of Kizer getting hurt or in trouble doing things he shouldnt do.

Concern of course is Wimbush leaving. That kid has serious talent and sitting for more years will be a tough thing to ask him to do.

 

[NorthDakota]

I'll let Kelly figure it out. I think it will be Zaire though.

Let's go!

 

[Blaise]

I just cant see how Kizer can lose the job. How do you take a guy who has had a full year of GAME experience and put in a guy who played 4 total quarters of real game time? Short of Kizer getting hurt or in trouble doing things he shouldnt do.

Concern of course is Wimbush leaving. That kid has serious talent and sitting for more years will be a tough thing to ask him to do.

confused by the 4 quarters statement.. He started against LSU and Texas, and played against Virg and USC from year before......... Zaire has experience

 

[IrishLion]

I just cant see how Kizer can lose the job. How do you take a guy who has had a full year of GAME experience and put in a guy who played 4 total quarters of real game time? Short of Kizer getting hurt or in trouble doing things he shouldnt do.

Concern of course is Wimbush leaving. That kid has serious talent and sitting for more years will be a tough thing to ask him to do.

I think this would be more meaningful if the entire receiving corps were returning. As it is, the top two guys (and the guys Kizer had good-to-great chemistry with) are now gone. So I don't think that experience is as big of a deal breaker as it usually would be.

There is something to be said for the fact that Kizer was THE man in "must win" games against Clemson and Stanford, whereas Malik doesn't have experience with that kind of pressure atmosphere just yet... but a bowl game against LSU and a season-opener against Texas are pretty close.

I would have no problem if BK said that it's DeShone's job to lose, but I will also have no problem when it's an open competition through the spring and start of summer.

 

[koonja]

I feel like it's easier to start with Malik and go to the more proven Kizer if Malik struggles than it is other way around. We know what we'll get with Kizer and it's good enough to win most games. I think this will factor into BK's decision some.

You're not going to pull Kizer for a more unknown Malik. At least less likely IMO.

 

[Wingman Ray]

From what I remember against LSU, it was runs and high % completion passes for Malik. Am I incorrect? Texas just sucked at that time and would have lost to a MAC team opening weekend. I know Malik can run the ball better but has the guy given anyone reason to believe he would be a better or even equal passer than Kizer? If ND becomes run dependent, opponents just stack the box and the run ends.

Question is, do you use Malik or Wimbush for backup? One has to sit the pine. You technically could redshirt Wimbush but that is when all the transfer offers start coming in for a guy as talented as he is. BK really screwed up this year not giving Wimbush more mop up game time. Not saying it was there every game but it was there and he rarely saw the field. Yes I know he had the fumble but a backup needs those kinds of experiences to hit the ground running when it is his time.

 

[kmoose]

Don't be that guy.

We were winning 19-14 when Zaire got hurt. Zaire had us driving and Procise scored from 24 yards out the very next play. I guess we should give credit to Kizer for that one. Anyhow, one play after Zaire was hurt we were up 26 to 14.

Kizer came in and did a good job given the circumstances and we won. He made a great play to help us win the game. But I have no doubt that we would've won if Zaire had not gotten hurt.

Zaire was 7/18, 115 yards, 1 TD, when he got injured. 60(59) of those yards came on the TD pass to Fuller. So throw out his best and worst plays, and he was 6/16 for 55 yards. The idea that we might have lost to Virginia if Zaire had played the whole game is not outrageous. I'm not saying we would have, but we certainly could have. I don't think we say enough of Malik to really say much about him, other than he appeared to be competent. However, as well Kizer played over the totality of the season, he had moments where he looked almost clueless, so it's not like it would be outrageous to think that Malik could unseat him as the starter.

 

[IrishLion]

From what I remember against LSU, it was runs and high % completion passes for Malik. Am I incorrect? Texas just sucked at that time and would have lost to a MAC team opening weekend. I know Malik can run the ball better but has the guy given anyone reason to believe he would be a better or even equal passer than Kizer? If ND becomes run dependent, opponents just stack the box and the run ends.

Question is, do you use Malik or Wimbush for backup? One has to sit the pine. You technically could redshirt Wimbush but that is when all the transfer offers start coming in for a guy as talented as he is. BK really screwed up this year not giving Wimbush more mop up game time. Not saying it was there every game but it was there and he rarely saw the field. Yes I know he had the fumble but a backup needs those kinds of experiences to hit the ground running when it is his time.

I think you use whoever doesn't win the starting job (either Malik or DeShone) as the backup, and explain to Wimbush that if he redshirts this year, the team will be his for two whole years rather than one.

Most reporters seem confident that Wimbush is at ND for the long-haul so far as they can tell.

 

[IrishLion]

Zaire was 7/18, 115 yards, 1 TD, when he got injured. 60(59) of those yards came on the TD pass to Fuller. So throw out his best and worst plays, and he was 6/16 for 55 yards. The idea that we might have lost to Virginia if Zaire had played the whole game is not outrageous. I'm not saying we would have, but we certainly could have. I don't think we say enough of Malik to really say much about him, other than he appeared to be competent. However, as well Kizer played over the totality of the season, he had moments where he looked almost clueless, so it's not like it would be outrageous to think that Malik could unseat him as the starter.

Exactly. I think we should put forth a motion to take that Virginia game out of the equation when discussing the QB competition.

There really isn't a definitive way to say who should start and argue it as if it's a fact. We haven't seen enough of Malik to know what his limits are, but we HAVE seen enough to know that he can get the job done. We have also seen that DeShone can get the job done, and we've also seen that he can still make huge improvements (which is saying a lot, considering the success he had).

I don't think there's a wrong way to go, unless BK mismanages it as bad as Urban handled Cardal/JT at the beginning of OSU's season.

 

[kmoose]

I don't think there's a wrong way to go, unless BK mismanages it as bad as Urban handled Cardal/JT at the beginning of OSU's season.

I'm not sure that Meyer did mishandle it. I don't think that Barrett's DUI was his first time driving drunk, and I think his subsequent automotive issues(before the bowl game) just support that supposition. I suspicion that Barrett was even worse, at the beginning of the season, and that is why Meyer started Jones. To send a message to Barrett that he needed to clean up his act off of the field. And I think Barrett probably made a token attempt to appear like he was doing just that. That, coupled with their offensive struggles behind Jones, led Meyer to plug Barrett back in. But once Barrett fell back into the same old habits, it was too late for Meyer to make the switch back to Jones.

 

[IrishLion]

I'm not sure that Meyer did mishandle it. I don't think that Barrett's DUI was his first time driving drunk, and I think his subsequent automotive issues(before the bowl game) just support that supposition. I suspicion that Barrett was even worse, at the beginning of the season, and that is why Meyer started Jones. To send a message to Barrett that he needed to clean up his act off of the field. And I think Barrett probably made a token attempt to appear like he was doing just that. That, coupled with their offensive struggles behind Jones, led Meyer to plug Barrett back in. But once Barrett fell back into the same old habits, it was too late for Meyer to make the switch back to Jones.

So JT had more legal issues before the season?

If that's true, then I don't think he could have handled it much differently.

However, if JT was in good standing, he should have been their QB from the start. Their offense last season was at it's most efficient when Barrett was running the option and getting high-percentage looks via tempo and tired defenses.

Cardale offers some nice upside to certain offensive systems, but OSU's full playbook is not one such system. Their playoff run was nice, but a limited playbook would have been solved over a longer period (as it basically was this season when he was the starter).

 

[kmoose]

So JT had more legal issues before the season?

If that's true, then I don't think he could have handled it much differently.

However, if JT was in good standing, he should have been their QB from the start. Their offense last season was at it's most efficient when Barrett was running the option and getting high-percentage looks via tempo and tired defenses.

Cardale offers some nice upside to certain offensive systems, but OSU's full playbook is not one such system. Their playoff run was nice, but a limited playbook would have been solved over a longer period (as it basically was this season when he was the starter).

No. I don't think Barrett had legal issues before the initial DUI arrest. But I bet that he was known for liking to have a few and then drive, and Meyer probably knew that it was just going to be a matter of time before that caught up to him. And Meyer probably didn't want the rest of the team thinking that you could drink and drive, and the coaches wouldn't care as long as you were talented enough.

There's a LOT of supposition on my part in these views, but I don't think its wild speculation.

 

[IrishLion]

No. I don't think Barrett had legal issues before the initial DUI arrest. But I bet that he was known for liking to have a few and then drive, and Meyer probably knew that it was just going to be a matter of time before that caught up to him. And Meyer probably didn't want the rest of the team thinking that you could drink and drive, and the coaches wouldn't care as long as you were talented enough.

There's a LOT of supposition on my part in these views, but I don't think its wild speculation.

Well either way, my point remains the same... as long as it isn't botched badly in such a way that results in a transfer and/or flip-flopping, there aren't really any "bad" outcomes for however the QB position shakes out at ND for '16.

 

[wizards8507]

Well either way, my point remains the same... as long as it isn't botched badly in such a way that results in a transfer and/or flip-flopping, there aren't really any "bad" outcomes for however the QB position shakes out at ND for '16.

I don't necessarily agree that the only chance a transfer happens is if the staff botches something. If I go to a school to be "the guy" at quarterback, I don't know that I stay with a program that might give me a starting opportunity for one year, three years from now.