Quarterback Controversy 2016

[koonja]

Having TF alone is going to help our redzone offense a ton. Not as exciting, but he's better than both CJ and Adams. He always falls forward and can duck under to get 2-3 everytime. A 1-yard loss kills the red zone and TF will never do that.

You'll also see more trust in Alize next year in the red zone. I don't think we need to get fancy to drastically improve our RZ in 2016.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

How bout Kelly stay away from the O, and perhaps red zone will improve. There is after all only 1 constant for all these years

Also not having brown who couldn't separate as a starter might help

 

[NDohio]

If there's one thing we learned this year, and what cost us the game vs Clemson and Stanford, is that we had no rhythm in the red zone. Meanwhile, we consistently punched the ball in with Zaire against the #1 ranked defense in the SEC in LSU last year.

Kizer is big and fast in stride, but runs like a TE, while Malik could be a starting running back on most teams in the country. With a healthy Folston and Luatua (who is the best blocking TE in the country IMO), there isn't a team in the country with an answer for Zaire running the option in the red zone.

Yet Virginia could? Granted Folston wasn't there, but Luatua and MZ were along with CJ who is a fairly adequate runner... We couldn't get 2 yards in three plays against VA!


Again, this is a BK issue and not an MZ issue.

I do hope it is an open competition and the best QB plays, I am not a fan of a two QB system.

 

[ab2cmiller]

Here is my thing. The red zone issues are a constant under BK regardless of who is playing QB. I am not going to put any blame on MZ for the following failures, but here is what he did in his last game:

First Drive - Failed in the red zone - fake field goal for TD

Second Drive - Failed in the red zone - FG made

Third Drive - Failed near the red zone - FG made

Fourth Drive - Failed near the red zone - turned over on downs in short yardage situation. We had a second and two and couldn't get the first down in three attempts!!

Eighth Drive - Failed near the red zone - FG missed

Ninth Drive - MZ got hurt - scored TD on the next play

What do we really gain by changing QBs in the red zone?

It's fair to point out MZ's performance in the red zone. However it's not fair to pick out one game from MZ's starts as proof that he struggles in the red zone.

The problem with MZ is that we don't have a big sample size. He's started three games. In two of those games he was very good, including in the red zone. Against Virginia he wasn't. Everyone could tell he was not nearly as sharp as compared to Texas. So which is the real MZ? Again, not enough sample size.

Against LSU in the bowl game last year BK had Golson start the drive and when they got into the red zone, he put MZ back in. Not saying he will do this next year, but as phgreek pointed out, if BK thinks it's the best option, BK will do it.

I don't think most of us are suggesting that BK should definitely start MZ or that he should be brought in at the red zone, just that BK will most likely have a true open competition next year and if Kizer is the starter, that BK would "consider" using Zaire in the red zone.

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

Screw the Malik vs Deshone talk.

My money is on Brandon.

 

[koonja]

Screw the Malik vs Deshone talk.

My money is on Brandon.

BOOM!

 

[JD Irish]

Having TF alone is going to help our redzone offense a ton. Not as exciting, but he's better than both CJ and Adams. He always falls forward and can duck under to get 2-3 everytime. A 1-yard loss kills the red zone and TF will never do that.

You'll also see more trust in Alize next year in the red zone. I don't think we need to get fancy to drastically improve our RZ in 2016.

Very good point. Having Folston in the redzone will be huge.

 

[NDohio]

It's fair to point out MZ's performance in the red zone. However it's not fair to pick out one game from MZ's starts as proof that he struggles in the red zone.

The problem with MZ is that we don't have a big sample size. He's started three games. In two of those games he was very good, including in the red zone. Against Virginia he wasn't. Everyone could tell he was not nearly as sharp as compared to Texas. So which is the real MZ? Again, not enough sample size.

Against LSU in the bowl game last year BK had Golson start the drive and when they got into the red zone, he put MZ back in. Not saying he will do this next year, but as phgreek pointed out, if BK thinks it's the best option, BK will do it.

I don't think most of us are suggesting that BK should definitely start MZ or that he should be brought in at the red zone, just that BK will most likely have a true open competition next year and if Kizer is the starter, that BK would "consider" using Zaire in the red zone.

I don't want to get too far away from my point. I am not trying to bang on MZ here - my point is what do we gain by pulling one QB for another when we get into the red zone? IMO nothing as the red zone issues are not a QB issue but an offense as the whole issue.

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Malik Zaire has earned an opportunity to compete for the starting job. A HUGE chunk of ND's success this year is the cultural he built with teammates in the offseason. Night and day different than when Golson was at the helm, and the entire team was better for it.

It would be a complete disservice to him to just hand the job to Kizer, even though you'd be hard pressed to come up with a reason why Kizer shouldn't quite obviously be handed the job.

I'd be shocked if anyone thought the keys should be handed over without competition. Kelly will never outright claim an incumbent in a situation like this. He needs both players growing and sharpening their skill sets. Kelly will not settle for complacency.

I wonder if Kelly would find a pistol (or some other)package with Kizer and Zaire on the field at the same time. Talk about a defensive headache.

Could even line-up with split backs and two attached TEs and offset TE or jumbo WR.

I just can't imagine how you'd defend two pass-catching TEs, one with elite TE speed and two QBs who can throw the pass or tuck and run.

 

[IrishLax]

Other thing to consider is that it makes no sense for Zaire to transfer because he'll get his degree next year and have full range of transfer options for his final year... whereas if he leaves, he has to sit out a year anyways.

So I'd be pretty shocked if he left unless it's an emotional decision. There is no logical case to be made for leaving.

 

[irishfan]

I'd be shocked if anyone thought the keys should be handed over without competition. Kelly will never outright claim an incumbent in a situation like this. He needs both players growing and sharpening their skill sets. Kelly will not settle for complacency.

I wonder if Kelly would find a pistol (or some other)package with Kizer and Zaire on the field at the same time. Talk about a defensive headache.

Could even line-up with split backs and two attached TEs and offset TE or jumbo WR.

I just can't imagine how you'd defend two pass-catching TEs, one with elite TE speed and two QBs who can throw the pass or tuck and run.

I've always loved the idea of two QBs in the shotgun as a package. Especially with a righty and lefty who are both mobile.

Also, I know the Wildcat is pretty outdated, but a Wildcat with Zaire getting the direct snap and Kizer split out wide would keep a defense from keying on the run. Not just cause Zaire can throw it, but they'd be very wary of a trick play with Kizer on a reverse. The below play being probably the simplest trick we could do out of that formation.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fH4X-vWrmw8" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Irish#1]

BK will open this up to all three. MZ still provides a better threat at running, but DK appears to be a better passer. We really don't have much of a sample size to base MZ on, but you have to start somewhere. I still maintain our inability to run in the red zone is due to us running out of the shotgun/spread. Putting two QB's out there is not going to work and alternating them won't either. I'm sure coaches have thought about it and even practiced it. As the old saying goes, when you have two QB's, you have no QB's.

 

[pumpdog20]

I'm not on the anti-kizer boat, I'm on the pro-MZ one.

I think MZ deserves a fair chance at the spot, and if he gets one, he'll re-take the reins.

 

[mick2]

is it possible we see zaire in bowl game for special packages? I thought i heard somewhere that he is out of the cast and close to being ready

 

[alohagoirish]

Zaire secured his starting role with his performance against LSU----

Kizer has earned the start with an exceptional season of performance and development,,

IMO--how open the spring competition is will heavily depend upon the bowl game. If Kizer has a BC type game ( his only poor outing) throwing three picks hitting 50% and ND loses badly--in that case expect the spring competition will be wide open irrespective of Kizers season long excellent play and cumulative experience. If Kizer plays a strong game he wins the spring job on January 1st.

 

[IrishLion]

As long as BK manages the competition and decision better than Urban managed Barrett/Cardale this year, we'll be okay.

 

[mick2]

As long as BK manages the competition and decision better than Urban managed Barrett/Cardale this year, we'll be okay.

I have complete trust in Kelly and his management of qbs since as early as I started paying attention to him which was the pike/collaros years at cincinatti, what he did in 12' with a freshman and rees was miraculous. He has shown he knows what he is doing when it comes to qb's I don't think even his detractors could argue that (though they probably will)

 

[GATTACA!]

I don't really put too much weight into Kelly telling MZs family that it's his team or whatever. There was no way Kelly could have ever predicted in his wildest dreams that Kizer would play as well as he did. I know Kelly is always all about the next man in mentality, but DK blew past even the most optimistic expectations anyone had when MZ went down.

 

[gkIrish]

Some of you guys want an open QB competition when we already have a guy that was arguably a top 10 QB this year despite not getting first team reps in camp or until after week 2 of the season. Oh yeah, and he has 3 years of eligibility left...

I don't care what happens in practice during August, Kizer is the starter.

 

[rocket66]

If Kizer beats osu and looks good doing it, I'd be very surprised if there was a "competition" next year. If he struggles and turns the balls over, then all bets are off.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[clashmore_jon]

BK did tell MZ's mom not to worry and that it was his team. IMO we'll see a lot of both.

That was regarding the 2015 team, not the 2016 team.

 

[NDohio]

is it possible we see zaire in bowl game for special packages? I thought i heard somewhere that he is out of the cast and close to being ready

I don't believe this is a possibility. BK ran through all the injuries in his presser the other day and stated what players will be available for the Bowl, Malik was never mentioned.

 

[mick2]

I don't believe this is a possibility. BK ran through all the injuries in his presser the other day and stated what players will be available for the Bowl, Malik was never mentioned.

yeah that's what I thought, darn.

 

[NDohio]

Some of you guys want an open QB competition when we already have a guy that was arguably a top 10 QB this year despite not getting first team reps in camp or until after week 2 of the season. Oh yeah, and he has 3 years of eligibility left...

I don't care what happens in practice during August, Kizer is the starter.

I do want an open competition as it keeps both(all three) players pushing each other to be better.

I agree though - it's Kizer's job to lose.

 

[mick2]

Some of you guys want an open QB competition when we already have a guy that was arguably a top 10 QB this year despite not getting first team reps in camp or until after week 2 of the season. Oh yeah, and he has 3 years of eligibility left...

I don't care what happens in practice during August, Kizer is the starter.

You're probably right, Kizer is the starter, and I would agree. But what if there is something zaire brings that kizer doesn't.

aren't you always preaching you want the coaches to put the players that give us the best opportunity to win on the field?

Kizer is the clear favorite as he should be, but, what if zaire could get us those extra 2 wins that we didn't get this season?

Again all hypothetical but you cannot discount zaire's ability.

 

[IrishLion]

I have complete trust in Kelly and his management of qbs since as early as I started paying attention to him which was the pike/collaros years at cincinatti, what he did in 12' with a freshman and rees was miraculous. He has shown he knows what he is doing when it comes to qb's I don't think even his detractors could argue that (though they probably will)

I agree. Even further back, to the Mauk/Grutza/Pike year in 2007, BK did an excellent job of finding the best option, and getting great play from the next man up when it was needed.

The only thing that gives me pause is the way he managed Crist/Rees and then Rees/Hendrix. The start to the 2011 season could have been handled better, and he didn't show a great feel for when to use Hendrix as the change-of-pace guy.

I think he's gotten past that; it showed in 2012 when he used Rees as the cold-blooded closer for young Golson, and it shows with how Kizer is playing this year.


(Also, BK didn't exactly get a bunch of help in 2011, considering Crist/Hendrix were both absolute liabilities when asked to actually lead the team. But still, I worry about the Rees/Crist juggling that happened to start that season.)

 

[mick2]

I agree. Even further back, to the Mauk/Grutza/Pike year in 2007, BK did an excellent job of finding the best option, and getting great play from the next man up when it was needed.

The only thing that gives me pause is the way he managed Crist/Rees and then Rees/Hendrix. The start to the 2011 season could have been handled better, and he didn't show a great feel for when to use Hendrix as the change-of-pace guy.

I think he's gotten past that; it showed in 2012 when he used Rees as the cold-blooded closer for young Golson, and it shows with how Kizer is playing this year.


(Also, BK didn't exactly get a bunch of help in 2011, considering Crist/Hendrix were both absolute liabilities when asked to actually lead the team. But still, I worry about the Rees/Crist juggling that happened to start that season.)

11' sucked, I still kinda wish crist got a longer leash, probably just my bias and I have no real backup for that, but it seemed to turn out as well as it could have with rees going on to win a lot of games for us.

 

[GATTACA!]

I do want an open competition as it keeps both(all three) players pushing each other to be better.

I agree though - it's Kizer's job to lose.

Problem is if Malik comes in and is looking better than Kizer it could ruin his psych. Kizer had talked on a season with ND about how he was performing so poorly around the time of the spring game, comparatively to Golson and Malik, that he was having thoughts about quitting football and switching to baseball. So while in theory it would be good to be able to push DK I don't want to end up messing with his confidence.

 

[irishknight35]

Problem is if Malik comes in and is looking better than Kizer it could ruin his psych. Kizer had talked on a season with ND about how he was performing so poorly around the time of the spring game, comparatively to Golson and Malik, that he was having thoughts about quitting football and switching to baseball. So while in theory it would be good to be able to push DK I don't want to end up messing with his confidence.

Just my opinion but I'm guessing Kizer is well past any confidence issues. He just had a great year for being thrust into a pressure packed situation of being the starting QB at ND. He really showed a lot of mental toughness and developed quite a bit a moxy (a TD celebration here and there) over the course of the '15 season.

My only concern is that his youth did show a few times in each game with where he made decisions that could have been/did turn into INTs and fumbles. I know it's such a limited amount of games to go off of for Zaire but he seems to take care of the ball better and make quicker decisions on when to bail out of the pocket. Kizer really liked to hang in the pocket too long at times. This could be a determining factor in Zaire's favor.

Both Kizer and Zaire seem confident in their abilities and hopefully both remember that at any time, regardless of who is starting, the backup can be called upon to lead the ND offense.

As a meaningless prediction as of today I still think Zaire starts in 2016.

 

[irish4ever]

Kizer between the 20's.

Zaire in the red zone.

Problem solved.

That idea I like! Kizer would still get some passing TD's with his big hitters to our deep threat WR's (Fuller, ESB, etc.).