QB situation

[Number3rockin]

I wanted PJ at half time. Don't know if book is broken, but there are cracks. It trickles down throuout the team. WRs aren't getting the ball, when they do its late and not accurate. OLine suffers, rbs need to stay on blocks longer. Def on the field way much (they're tackling has sucked since USC). Hoping Michigan game doesn't snowball with more losses. I just think it's time to see what PJ has.

 

[T-Boone]

Anyone think we will be able to recruit higher rated QBs now they can make money off advertisement. Surely (ordinarily speaking) the starting NDQB has a bigger public profile than the Clemson starting QB.

 

[koonja]

I wanted PJ at half time. Don't know is book is broken, but there are cracks. It trickles down throuout the team. WRs aren't getting the ball, when they do its late and not accurate. OLine suffers, rbs need to stay on blocks longer. Def on the field way much (they're tackling has sucked since USC). Hoping Michigan game doesn't snowball with more losses. I just think it's time to see what PJ has.

This is where I'm at. Book has not won us a single game this year.

Let PJ have a shot. Book can always come in and miss some WRs if PJ isn't cutting it.

 

[ab2cmiller]

The worst thing for PJ would be giving him the starting job if he's not ready. Destroys any confidence that they might have and they may never develop into the QB that they could've been.

We as fans may be ready to move on, the coaches may be ready to move on, but if PJ isn't ready, it could be detrimental to his development.

 

[koonja]

The worst thing for PJ would be giving him the starting job if he's not ready. Destroys any confidence that they might have and they may never develop into the QB that they could've been.

We as fans may be ready to move on, the coaches may be ready to move on, but if PJ isn't ready. It could be detrimental to his development.

If he's not ready in year 2 to play against teams who will be significantly less talented than his, I hope he transfers before next year.

 

[InKellyWeTrust]

The worst thing for PJ would be giving him the starting job if he's not ready. Destroys any confidence that they might have and they may never develop into the QB that they could've been.

We as fans may be ready to move on, the coaches may be ready to move on, but if PJ isn't ready, it could be detrimental to his development.

I never really have fully bought into this concept. I think its an excuse for players who just aren't very good. You can't keep good players off the field in my opinion.

 

[Meatloaf]

Put this in the BK Revisited thread but it's probably more relevant here.

The Athletic just published an article, What it's like to be QB1 for Brian Kelly.

Some pretty interesting quotes from former players:

“I think we have unrealistic expectations based on some of the successes that other teams have had, and it leads to unrealistic expectations for our players in terms of their development,” former Irish quarterback Andrew Hendrix said. “Guys like Tua (Tagovailoa) and Trevor Lawrence are generational players in terms of both their overall capacity and ability to play early, and they are playing on teams with generational talent. Falling just short of those guys still puts you in the 99th percentile, but when they are your standard, everything short of being perfect feels catastrophic.

“Early in a quarterback’s career, it is easier to call a game for them because you have less on their plate. You’d rather ‘let them play’ than bog them down with schemes and audibles and more complex game plans. As they mature, you put more on their plate, regression is natural, and it’s easy to pull the plug on them.

“This culture of ‘championship or bust’ doesn’t allow for players to develop because we don’t have Trevor Lawrence or Tua ready to play since the womb. We have Ian Book, who along with the other 99 percent of guys, is still maturing as a quarterback. He’s a damn good player. Let’s let him (mature), for once.”

 

[Irish YJ]

Sorry if already posted (free one from Prister)

https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Why-Notre-Dame-Is-Sticking-With-Ian-Book-137694689/

Just makes me think that PJ is simply not that good right now. After spending all that time trying to tweak his motion, did they really let him go back to old ways?

 

[Number3rockin]

Book isn't good right now. Give me book from last yr all day. But right now, he's gun shy. Can't be that way. Hell I dont care if it's the FR if he's gonna try to sling it. Might get picked...could be a td!! I just wanna see what the highly recruited kid can do. And like koon said, if it doesn't work, book can come in and look at people down field.

 

[Luckylucci]

Book isn't good right now. Give me book from last yr all day. But right now, he's gun shy. Can't be that way. Hell I don tell care if it's the FR if he's gonna try to sling it. Might get picked...could be a td!! I just wanna see what the highly recruited kid can do. And like koon said, if it doesn't work, book can come in and look at people down field.

In the 4 games against reasonable competition (UGA, UVA, USC, and UM), Book is 71/129 (55% comp pct.) with a 5.25 yds/att. If PJ is worse than that then so be it but it's definitely not a high bar to get over.

 

[ulukinatme]

Sorry if already posted (free one from Prister)

https://247sports.com/college/notre-dame/Article/Why-Notre-Dame-Is-Sticking-With-Ian-Book-137694689/

Just makes me think that PJ is simply not that good right now. After spending all that time trying to tweak his motion, did they really let him go back to old ways?

I think everyone needs to read that. This part was good:

But it’s been more difficult than that. Jurkovec struggled with his throwing motion/accuracy from the outset. He tinkered with it in the spring – tightening up his elongated arm action – only to have a disastrous Blue-Gold Game.

When August camp opened, Jurkovec had gone back to the mechanics that allowed him to throw for more than 8,000 yards and 71 touchdowns at Pine-Richland High School, including nearly 4,000 yards and 39 touchdowns as a senior. He also rushed for 1,211 yards in his final year on the prep level.

His accuracy and spin remained sketchy. He threw some of the ugliest passes ever attempted by a Notre Dame quarterback on the practice field. But he improved as camp progressed and at least showed a semblance of the four-star quality that made him such a ballyhooed prospect in mop-up duty against New Mexico and Bowling Green.

And yet his physical ability was just a small part of it. Not the “gym rat” type student of the game like Book -- who has to be forced out of the film room some days/nights -- Jurkovec has not picked up the many nuances of the game that go far beyond his physical ability.

A quarterback has much to decipher at the line of scrimmage. First, he must set the protection, which Book has learned well through his experiences on the practice field and in game competition. Then it’s a matter of understanding what the defense is trying to do to him coverage-wise.

Only then do the physical components come into play.

Playing time in live competition certainly would help Jurkovec’s development. But a quarterback has to prove his knowledge of the game on the practice field first. It’s come slowly for Jurkovec.

“Phil has gotten better and will continue to get better,” Kelly said. “He’s challenging Ian every single day, even if you guys don’t see it. Just because he’s No. 2 doesn’t mean that he’s not challenging Ian and making him better every day in practice.

“We think that he is better as a football player and a quarterback than he was when camp started. We just hope that continues to move in the right direction. We’re pretty confident that it will.”

Kelly went on to say that “all (Jurkovec) is missing right now is getting to the point where he actually plays in some games and makes those quick decisions – changing protections – (which) he’s going to have to continue to work on.” What he was really saying was that if he were showing that ability in practice, he might be closer in the running for live action.

But he’s not, and with the belief that Book has it in him to make better decisions than he’s shown too many times this season, there’s really no decision to be made as to whom will start at quarterback the remainder of the season, provided Book is healthy.

Just because Book has struggled does not mean there’s a better alternative.

It was also mentioned that you don't sacrifice for next year when you have Seniors on this squad that have given so much and deserve the best possible finish.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

Put this in the BK Revisited thread but it's probably more relevant here.

The Athletic just published an article, What it's like to be QB1 for Brian Kelly.

Some pretty interesting quotes from former players:

I get where Hendrix is coming from, but I haven't met an ND fan that expects Book to be Tu'a, Jalen or Trevor.

He was great for his first five starts in 2018, completing (on average) 76% of his passes for 293 yards, 3 TDs and 0.8 INTs per game. His 6th start against Northwestern was when opposing DCs started figuring him out, and his passer rating consistently dropped thereafter -- 168.9, 140.9, 144.0, and then bottoming out against Clemson at 83.6.

Fast forward to 2019, and things haven't gotten any better. He looked great against New Mexico and Bowling Green, but those teams are among the worst in the FBS. Disregarding those glorified scrimmages, he hasn't come close to regaining his form from early 2018, and has steadily gotten worse as the season progressed. His performance against SC was only marginally better than that against Clemson, with the sh!t show in Ann Arbor being by far the worst game of his career.

The second half of our schedule includes three soft defenses-- VT (88th), Duke (29th), Navy (21), BC (103rd), Stanford (79)-- so maybe Book can regain some confidence along the way and get back to the quick-release field general that took the job from Wimbush last year. But he's not the victim of unreasonable expectations. Ian rates 40th in TQBR right now, so he's not even within hailing distance of Tu'a (1st), Jalen (2nd) or Trevor (7th). If you take out the stat-inflating games against New Mexico and Bowling Green, he drops to 57th. That's simply unacceptable for a team with our talent level.

We know Book is capable of playing much better, but on his current trajectory, we're in danger of dropping a very winnable game against an inferior team due to his limitations. And the difference between 10-2 and 9-3 is huge for us. Not sure what the answer is, but Kelly's inability to develop QBs might be what finally seals his fate at ND.

 

[Luckylucci]

I think everyone needs to read that. This part was good:



It was also mentioned that you don't sacrifice for next year when you have Seniors on this squad that have given so much and deserve the best possible finish.

Most of it doesn't mean much to me because of just how ineffective Book has been recently. Those numbers are essentially what Wimbush put up that got him benched and they don't event the whole story because of the amount of plays Book eats.

But, I think it's pretty clear the bolded was the deciding factor. They feel that they owe it to the Seniors to finish the best they can and they believe Book does that. "They" is the team.

 

[Irishize]

Most of it doesn't mean much to me because of just how ineffective Book has been recently. Those numbers are essentially what Wimbush put up that got him benched and they don't event the whole story because of the amount of plays Book eats.

But, I think it's pretty clear the bolded was the deciding factor. They feel that they owe it to the Seniors to finish the best they can and they believe Book does that. "They" is the team.

True but the seniors need to play like they want to win out b/c despite all the pre-season hype I don’t see any of them making as much money as they could be for their draft status by dominating their inferior opponents.

Okwara has been really disappointing. Outside of the 2nd half of the UVA game, he’s been average. He’s way behind on his run stuffs in comparison to last season. He acts like he doesn’t want to tackle & instead just rush the QB. What’s going to happen vs Navy when someone is diving at his knees 50 times a game?

Kareem has been more steady but he hasn’t looked like one of the best in the nation like he & Okwara were advertised. They haven’t even faced a great offense yet.

Elliott & Gilman have seemed to regress too. Gilman may be trying to do too much when other players miss their assignments but then that makes him look bad & the play does even more damage. Elliott’s tackling has looked worse, too.

Hopefully, as seniors; they really will realize the season is on the line from here on out. Not only do they have a chance to finish w/ 10 wins again, they have a chance at the first back-to-back Top 10 final rankings since 1992-93.

If they collectively shit the bed again...all bets should be off b/c the coaches & fans can’t care more than the seniors.

 

[EddytoNow]

Or he gets too complex and asks too much of the position. Like BVG did on defense to the point where only Schmidt could play MLB. I like the philosophy in college where you keep it simpler and let your playmakers play fast.

Might be why the QBs always regress, they put more and more on them to the point they are no longer playing "loose"

Perhaps, the fault lies not in the player but in the mold he's being forced to fit into. Kelly has a specific mold he wants all of his quarterbacks to fit. He hasn't been able to adapt the position to fit the skill set of the players he recruits. He attempts to change the player to fit his vision of the quarterback position.

In Jurkovic's case, his high school film showed a very accurate quarterback. After two years with Kelly, has he forgotten how to throw the ball? Or is he being forced into Kelly's mold? Kelly's desire to be in control of everything prevents players from using their natural abilities and instincts. At some point you have to just let the athletes be athletes. You can't choreograph every move your players make without making them indecisive and hesitant. I'm beginning to think Kelly teaches the quarterbacks to be indecisive and timid when their high school success was based on their instinctive talent and athleticism.

Imagine synchronized quarterbacks going through the quarterback drills all in robotic fashion to the point where they can no longer function in a live game situation when the synchronized training is not working. The instincts that served them so well in high school have been drilled out of them.

 

[Luckylucci]

I’m not sure how else to say this but this isn’t Kelly’s offense. He’s not coaching QB’s on a daily basis like he used too. Tying this to past Kelly QB’s is a waste of time.

 

[Irish YJ]

I think everyone needs to read that. This part was good:


It was also mentioned that you don't sacrifice for next year when you have Seniors on this squad that have given so much and deserve the best possible finish.

Given BK has made the decision to switch QBs in the past (regardless of "seniors"), tells me even more PJ just isn't that good.

I know there might have been some sarcasm earlier in this thread about Clark being the guy next year, but honestly I wouldn't be shocked. Gives me a sadz. Hope that "click" moment happens with someone..

 

[Irish YJ]

I’m not sure how else to say this but this isn’t Kelly’s offense. He’s not coaching QB’s on a daily basis like he used too. Tying this to past Kelly QB’s is a waste of time.

Honest question. Has the scheme changed all that much throughout BK's tenure here (him calling plays or not)? Do you really believe BK is hands off with QB coaching now? If anything, I'd bet he's very hands on with Book struggling, and PJ not being an answer.

 

[fightingirish26]

Honest question. Has the scheme changed all that much throughout BK's tenure here (him calling plays or not)? Do you really believe BK is hands off with QB coaching now? If anything, I'd bet he's very hands on with Book struggling, and PJ not being an answer.

I'm not sure Kelly is really hands on with anything at this point. He is the CEO of ND football, and I guess he delegates the tasks around to the whole staff. But I mean, during that whole Michigan game, was he saying a word? Every time the cameras were on him, he was miserable and silent. Not a whole lot of in-game coaching.

Plus, I forget which recruit, but someone was committing and they told their position coach about it, and didn't tell Kelly (or at least talk to him about it) until a day or two later. To me, it just feels like Kelly is the distant CEO, who hired a very talented staff that are essentially running the team on their own.

 

[Luckylucci]

It has with Long. What we’re running on offense is quite a bit different. Also, BK’s offense gave the QB quite a bit of responsibility with changing protections or audibles based on defensive looks. There is almost none of that with Long. That’s why this narrative of ‘reading’ defenses is pretty funny.

I’ve yet to see any practice footage since the Long/Rees combo that would indicate it’s even remotely close to what it was. BK used spend almost all of his practice time with the QB’s through drills.

 

[T-Boone]

We havent heard anything about Clarke. Is he a gym/film room junkie? Was Wimbush? Does that trait just show they are going to be wound too tight?

 

[ulukinatme]

We havent heard anything about Clarke. Is he a gym/film room junkie? Was Wimbush? Does that trait just show they are going to be wound too tight?

I don't think so. Rees was a film junkie too and he had no problem letting the football fly, for better or for worse.

 

[Irish#1]

I think it's clear PJ isn't ready. I honestly believe BK would make the change if he thought Phil could lead the team to the promised land. IIRC, there was talk that Wimbush was starting againsts scUM as his athleticism gave the team a better chance to beat scUM, but they felt Book was the best option after that.

On a side note.....If they've already shown they get the job done with their current mechanics, I hate it when coaches start trying to change a players (QB's, BB pitchers, Bball shooters) mechanics,. A player instinctively slows down physically and mentally to make sure they are using the new mechanics. Look at Mahomes. His throwing motion would make Lombardi cringe, but he's successful, so why mess with success? PJ's throws are wobbly? Peyton Manning threw many a wounded duck. I think he did okay.

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

We are truly evolving as a fan base. We've moved on from the backup to QB3 being the favorite.

All hail Brendon Clark!

 

[FightingIrishLover7]

We are truly evolving as a fan base. We've moved on from the backup to QB3 being the favorite.

All hail Brendon Clark!

QB3?

I hear Pyne is the one!

 

[PANDFAN]

BK in article i read said PJ had difficulty understanding the coverages and trying to get into the correct protection

 

[Some Irish Bloke]

BK in article i read said PJ had difficulty understanding the coverages and trying to get into the correct protection

Which is fair. If a guy's not ready, I don't want to ruin his confidence and development.

In that same article, I don't remember hearing that Clark has an exceptional grasp of the pre-snap offense, either.

 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

BK in article i read said PJ had difficulty understanding the coverages and trying to get into the correct protection

What else is new? That sh*t is gonna be written on BK's tombstone, "Eternal Confuser of Quarterbacks".

 

[Luckylucci]

BK in article i read said PJ had difficulty understanding the coverages and trying to get into the correct protection

There are two scenarios here.

It's either Scenario 1 and that's 100% coach speak. Which I think it is. If you watch Book at the LOS, he's not calling protections or making audibles. And if he is, he's confusing more than just me as others seem confused by it as well. Heck, he seems confused by it, lol. The only people he's not confusing is the defense. Or, Scenario 2, and Book it just absolutely terrible at those things as well. Which could also make Scenario 1 true.

In BK's offense, when they signaled in plays there would be two options. A run option and a pass option. Based on the defense (ex. numbers in the box) the QB was tasked with making the right call. Also, the QB was tasked with the protection. This is what Tommy was all world at and Golson and Kizer struggled with as Kelly gave them more and more of that responsibility. Kelly, historically, gave them more of that responsibility as they "grew" in the offense. However, both of those guys reached a tipping point with their progress.

With Long, I don't see protections being changed. I don't see "check with me's" which is where the offense gets up to the LOS and looks to the OC for confirmation. I don't see Book directing anything. The tempo is fairly average, there is a play being called and we are running it. There are RPO's and zone reads which give Book some optionality within the offense but that's about it. Now, I'm sure there are some examples of it but I'm more speaking to the 90% of plays being run and I honestly can't think of the last game where it seemed like this frequently happened.

 

[IrishBoognish]

There are two scenarios here.

It's either Scenario 1 and that's 100% coach speak. Which I think it is. If you watch Book at the LOS, he's not calling protections or making audibles. And if he is, he's confusing more than just me as others seem confused by it as well. Heck, he seems confused by it, lol. The only people he's not confusing is the defense. Or, Scenario 2, and Book it just absolutely terrible at those things as well. Which could also make Scenario 1 true.

In BK's offense, when they signaled in plays there would be two options. A run option and a pass option. Based on the defense (ex. numbers in the box) the QB was tasked with making the right call. Also, the QB was tasked with the protection. This is what Tommy was all world at and Golson and Kizer struggled with as Kelly gave them more and more of that responsibility. Kelly, historically, gave them more of that responsibility as they "grew" in the offense. However, both of those guys reached a tipping point with their progress.

With Long, I don't see protections being changed. I don't see "check with me's" which is where the offense gets up to the LOS and looks to the OC for confirmation. I don't see Book directing anything. The tempo is fairly average, there is a play being called and we are running it. There are RPO's and zone reads which give Book some optionality within the offense but that's about it. Now, I'm sure there are some examples of it but I'm more speaking to the 90% of plays being run and I honestly can't think of the last game where it seemed like this frequently happened.

This is the most incredibly lucid description of what's going on here I've seen.

Thank you.