Post regular season thoughts

[Dale]

Coan says hello.

Not sure I get it, Coan was none of those things?

 

[Redbar]

Tyler Buchner was not prepared to win 10 games this season. Hence his abysmal showing against Marshall before the injury. Post OSU Freeman said "we got ourselves a QB." Then that QB completely shit the bed against a terrible opponent.

Tyler was going to have growing pains as a first year starter, just as Freeman and Rees were going to have growing pains. We lost to Marshall because our Oline at that time could not give us the consistency to do ANYTHING. We couldn’t pass and the only time we could run was to include the QB to help out with the numbers, and it got him hurt. Blaming those first couple of games on anybody but our Oline is just misremembering. It took a while for our Oline to gel, I firmly believe if Tyler doesn’t get hurt and our Oline is just “ok” before the second half of Cal, he gets us to 10-2 on the season.

 

[irishff1014]

Hire Bob Bostad to replace Harry Hiestand. Harry cost us four games this year and two embarrassments. Time to put the old bull out to pasture.

What?

 

[notredomer23]

I won’t quote anyone because we all have some terrible takes sometimes, but there’s a few in this thread that are WOOF

 

[FDNYIrish1]

Truth be told, this year we lost the inexplicable games that we eked out last year (Toledo,FSU, Va Tech)
A serviceable QB allows that. Bottom line there are some holes in the roster and help is definitely on the way. These guys played their balls off this year and despite some disappointments, gave me more good saturdays than bad. Hopefully we use bowl prep to bring some of the young guns up to speed and go into the off-season on a positive trajectory and feeling good. I believe in MF and think he’s going to learn and be great here. We played 2 of the top 4 pretty damn tight and both have heisman type QBs. Going to miss a couple of all timers in Mayer and Foskey, it’s been a pleasure to watch them play.

 

[Luckylucci]

Tyler was going to have growing pains as a first year starter, just as Freeman and Rees were going to have growing pains. We lost to Marshall because our Oline at that time could not give us the consistency to do ANYTHING. We couldn’t pass and the only time we could run was to include the QB to help out with the numbers, and it got him hurt. Blaming those first couple of games on anybody but our Oline is just misremembering. It took a while for our Oline to gel, I firmly believe if Tyler doesn’t get hurt and our Oline is just “ok” before the second half of Cal, he gets us to 10-2 on the season.

I didn't misremember anything. I also didn't say he was the sole reason those games went the way they did. A lot of the team was unprepared for Marshall. Hence losing to a trash can team. It takes total and utter collapse for that to happen with the talent we have. But, he was not getting us to 10-2.

For the Marshall game, Tyler was 18-32 (56%) for 201 yards, 0 TD's and 2 INT's. That's ass football. In fact, his best pass play was his first pass attempt of the OSU game. Back that out and the total product of his other 49 pass attempts are downright terrible.

I was a huge Buchner fan as a HS prospect. And I remain a huge fan of the young man.

 

[Giddyup]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

 

[Dale]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

Your post history is entirely fire Hiestand since WK 1. So I’m not too sure anyone is jumping to engage. Mind seems pretty made up.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

I didn't misremember anything. I also didn't say he was the sole reason those games went the way they did. A lot of the team was unprepared for Marshall. Hence losing to a trash can team. It takes total and utter collapse for that to happen with the talent we have. But, he was not getting us to 10-2.

For the Marshall game, Tyler was 18-32 (56%) for 201 yards, 0 TD's and 2 INT's. That's ass football. In fact, his best pass play was his first pass attempt of the OSU game. Back that out and the total product of his other 49 pass attempts are downright terrible.

I was a huge Buchner fan as a HS prospect. And I remain a huge fan of the young man.

Amen

 

[Veritate Duce Progredi]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

You are costing this message board a lot of potential sign-ups with your incessant whining. You are free to STFU and if you'd like to be around like-minded people, please join a little panacea known as NDNation.

 

[irishff1014]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

The offensive line played well most of the season. ALT was one of the top graded o lineman. It took them a few games to gel but when they did we saw a good product. Of course the second half of Navy wasn't a good half of football but that wasn't all on the o line. All we heard was how physical the o line would be against USC i think it did get in their head a little. It wasn't their best game but not their worst either.

 

[IrishLax]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

Ok what about the games where the OL carried the team then?

If OL "lost" Marshall and Ohio State (I don't know what the third game was because it sure as hell wasn't Stanford [Pyne] or USC [Pyne + not getting stops]) then what about the games where Pyne and the WRs weren't doing anything of note and we had great pass pro + run blocking?

 

[GATTACA!]

Hearing a bunch of insults but no rebuttal to Harry costing this team 3 games this year. Incompetence

I called exterminators because termites were eating away at my house. Incompetent assholes cost me my bathroom and kitchen before they got the problem solved!

 

[BeatSC]

I don't know man... Just looking at his stat line for the USC game makes it really difficult for me to be too down on Pyne and certain that a Coan or Buchner is a better option. The fumble was brutal but the game was probably already over by that point - no way we'd win in a shootout.

We score there and it’s 17-14 early 3rd quarter and huge momentum shift. That fumble shifted momentum back to usc and made it 24-7. At that point the game was largely out of reach.

 

[BeatSC]

Buchner never had the luxury of good Oline play in his two games. He was under attack constantly. Btw it turns out that Marshall had a pretty good season so they aren’t as bad as we thought they were. Marshall was an Oline and toughness loss. Buchner could do everything that Pyne did this year and more. We score more points this year if Buchner is in there. Hope Buchner can play behind a competent Oline next year.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Buchner never had the luxury of good Oline play in his two games. He was under attack constantly. Btw it turns out that Marshall had a pretty good season so they aren’t as bad as we thought they were. Marshall was an Oline and toughness loss. Buchner could do everything that Pyne did this year and more. We score more points this year if Buchner is in there. Hope Buchner can play behind a competent Oline next year.

Based on? So far he is a kid with accuracy issues that makes bad reads and has thrown 5 INTs including 2 pick 6’s in 86 pass attempts.
For comparison Pyne has thrown 6 Ints in 286 attempts, but people keep pulling him out on the rug for the TO’s. The offensive line excuse for Buchner is being way overinflated and people are talking like he is a proven commodity that we know would be an upgrade over Pyne. He has played in far more than 2 games in his career, most of which the staff has been hesitant to let him put the ball in the air. Lets stop pretending we know anything more about him than we do, which to date has not been pretty with the exception of about 3-4 throws and a handful of nice runs.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

Based on? So far he is a kid with accuracy issues that makes bad reads and has thrown 5 INTs including 2 pick 6’s in 86 pass attempts.
For comparison Pyne has thrown 6 Ints in 286 attempts, but people keep pulling him out on the rug for the TO’s. The offensive line excuse for Buchner is being way overinflated and people are talking like he is a proven commodity that we know would be an upgrade over Pyne. He has played in far more than 2 games in his career, most of which the staff has been hesitant to let him put the ball in the air. Lets stop pretending we know anything more about him than we do, which to date has not been pretty with the exception of about 3-4 throws and a handful of nice runs.

This. To be honest the relentless shitting on Pyne is kinda bugging me. Yeah he's not an "elite" QB in the way Book wasn't an "elite" QB, and caps our program as a result. But he played damn well in the game manager role this year, and I haven't seen anything that shows any other QB on the roster, a true freshman Kenny Minchey, or any of the veritable island of misfit toys that will enter the transfer portal. He may very well be the guy next year.

 

[Te'o4Heisman]

Based on? So far he is a kid with accuracy issues that makes bad reads and has thrown 5 INTs including 2 pick 6’s in 86 pass attempts.
For comparison Pyne has thrown 6 Ints in 286 attempts, but people keep pulling him out on the rug for the TO’s. The offensive line excuse for Buchner is being way overinflated and people are talking like he is a proven commodity that we know would be an upgrade over Pyne. He has played in far more than 2 games in his career, most of which the staff has been hesitant to let him put the ball in the air. Lets stop pretending we know anything more about him than we do, which to date has not been pretty with the exception of about 3-4 throws and a handful of nice runs.

Also to be clear I am not trying to rag on Buchner, but am simply making the point that many are speaking about him an absolutes in terms of being upgrade, being able to throw with accuracy, being somebody that will improve the offensive scoring output, making throws and decisions that Pyne can’t make, and the FACT is we simply have not seen anything yet that indicates this will be the case.

Could he become that guy? Absolutely, but it would require a huge jump from what he has shown thus far, good offensive line or not.

 

[tommyIRISH23]

Not sure where the Buchner is an upgrade assertions are coming from. Buchner is an upgrade over Pyne in mobility only.

Facts are that Buchner has been dealt a terrible hand between injuries and a once a century pandemic. He simply hasn’t played enough football. ND can’t gamble next season on Buchner taking a major (and probably unprecedented) leap forward in development as a passer. And, as a runner, he didn’t make it 2 games. Leaning on him next year to move the chains and score points in the run game is a massive gamble.

If we’re going to use training wheels and break in a new QB like we would be with Buchner…let’s use Minchey. He’s played significantly more football in the last 5 years compared to Buchner.

I’m more for chasing atleast a 10 win season. Grab a grad transfer and have Minchey developing…not running scout team ala BK

 

[BeatSC]

Not sure where the Buchner is an upgrade assertions are coming from. Buchner is an upgrade over Pyne in mobility only.

Facts are that Buchner has been dealt a terrible hand between injuries and a once a century pandemic. He simply hasn’t played enough football. ND can’t gamble next season on Buchner taking a major (and probably unprecedented) leap forward in development as a passer. And, as a runner, he didn’t make it 2 games. Leaning on him next year to move the chains and score points in the run game is a massive gamble.

If we’re going to use training wheels and break in a new QB like we would be with Buchner…let’s use Minchey. He’s played significantly more football in the last 5 years compared to Buchner.

I’m more for chasing atleast a 10 win season. Grab a grad transfer and have Minchey developing…not running scout team ala BK

mobility

So I guess arm strength and ability to see over your line matters? As long as Tommy and Freeman are there we will not see another QB on this team under 6’0 and maybe the bar is set at a minimum of 6’1”.

Numbers are good for measuring but Pyne does not pass any eye test. Even when his numbers were impressive he held back the offense. He is tough as nails and I wish he was 6’2” with a stronger arm but he isn’t. Hope he can be happy as the new Tommy Rees to whoever replaces him next year. Hope Buchner can be the guy but we would be watching him while holding our breath. Imo he hasn’t had a chance to prove himself yet behind a decent Oline. The throw he made to Styles against Ohio State is one Pyne can’t make. Hoping a stud comes in and becomes the favorite to start next year. Not sure if anyone that fits tat description will be out there for us.

 

[Crazy Balki]

Tyler was going to have growing pains as a first year starter, just as Freeman and Rees were going to have growing pains. We lost to Marshall because our Oline at that time could not give us the consistency to do ANYTHING. We couldn’t pass and the only time we could run was to include the QB to help out with the numbers, and it got him hurt. Blaming those first couple of games on anybody but our Oline is just misremembering. It took a while for our Oline to gel, I firmly believe if Tyler doesn’t get hurt and our Oline is just “ok” before the second half of Cal, he gets us to 10-2 on the season.

This.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I think there was a stat floating around that in the first 2 games of the season, Buchner was pressured or hit on almost half of his drop backs. That is insanely bad.

 

[Crazy Balki]

So I guess arm strength and ability to see over your line matters? As long as Tommy and Freeman are there we will not see another QB on this team under 6’0 and maybe the bar is set at a minimum of 6’1”.

Numbers are good for measuring but Pyne does not pass any eye test. Even when his numbers were impressive he held back the offense. He is tough as nails and I wish he was 6’2” with a stronger arm but he isn’t. Hope he can be happy as the new Tommy Rees to whoever replaces him next year. Hope Buchner can be the guy but we would be watching him while holding our breath. Imo he hasn’t had a chance to prove himself yet behind a decent Oline. The throw he made to Styles against Ohio State is one Pyne can’t make. Hoping a stud comes in and becomes the favorite to start next year. Not sure if anyone that fits tat description will be out there for us.

Not that height is irrelevant, however, I don't think the staff should just abandon recruiting shorter QB's, because we've seen shorter QB's who ended up being studs. Kyler Murray is a great example.

More importantly is that the staff needs to continuously land guys who have higher ceilings talent-wise. Pyne's issues didn't start and end with him being short. He didn't have the ability to make big plays with his arms or legs consistently. He gives defenses nothing to really have to account for.

ND went on a run where they seemed to recruit a bunch of lower ceiling QB's or QB's that didn't even project to QB in college. That can't happen and it appears to be a thing of the past with the run of Buchner, Angeli, Minchey and Carr. I know people will probably scoff at Angeli, but I do think he's more talented than he gets credit for, even if he has most likely the lowest ceiling of the bunch, he has more talent than Pyne for sure.

 

[Giddyup]

Wow. Bob Bostad’s main ol recruit is coming to ND. Bostad must have been hired by ND already.

 

[Free Manera]

This. To be honest the relentless shitting on Pyne is kinda bugging me. Yeah he's not an "elite" QB in the way Book wasn't an "elite" QB, and caps our program as a result. But he played damn well in the game manager role this year, and I haven't seen anything that shows any other QB on the roster, a true freshman Kenny Minchey, or any of the veritable island of misfit toys that will enter the transfer portal. He may very well be the guy next year.

There is no chance Freeman lets that happen. He is not going to willingly start a season with a handcuffed offense.

From a lot of reports, Pyne threw better and had better command during summer camp last year. But, Buchner won the job despite being a huge wild card because he had upside. With Buchner, you have a shot to beat OSU and USC. With Pyne you have an aspiring game manager.

 

[CANONIZEFATHERSORIN]

There is no chance Freeman lets that happen. He is not going to willingly start a season with a handcuffed offense.

From a lot of reports, Pyne threw better and had better command during summer camp last year. But, Buchner won the job despite being a huge wild card because he had upside. With Buchner, you have a shot to beat OSU and USC. With Pyne you have an aspiring game manager.

I mean Buchner didn't beat OSU and promptly lost to Marshall so...

 

[Free Manera]

I mean Buchner didn't beat OSU and promptly lost to Marshall so...

I get that, and I don't think Buchner is the answer either. But Pyne is so physically limited that he does nothing above a mediocre level and some things he does below that. Buchner at least has one above average to elite trait.

 

[stlnd01]

I get that, and I don't think Buchner is the answer either. But Pyne is so physically limited that he does nothing above a mediocre level and some things he does below that. Buchner at least has one above average to elite trait.

Buchner also has a much bigger arm.

The fact Buchner clearly and easily won the job in camp tells me that the staff - which has seen a lot more of him than we have - believed him to be the better QB entering this season. Pyne now has 10 starts under his belt, and did improve as the season went on, but his ceiling is far lower and his limitations are mostly physical, and thus very hard to improve, whereas Buchner’s improve with time/experience.

Either way, we need a transfer. And Minchey. And then a big five-way competition this spring/summer.

 

[Huntr]

Interesting stat on how ND scored TDs this year.

And how they let TDs be scored.

 

[tko]

This is really the only important graph.