Politics

[IrishJayhawk]

Don't know if we should use this or the horserace thread, but since this started as an election thread, I will put it here...

Do Democrats REALLY want HRC as the President of the United States?

(If you want, you can also answer whether you think she can be a president for "everyday americans" as she states in her video.)

I would take her. That said, I'd take Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren first.

No one really has connections to everyday Americans anymore. There's just too much money in the game. Obama was arguably one of the closest, given that he still had student loans until around the time when he gave his famous speech at the DNC. But I think Hillary would be better for the middle and lower class than anyone in the republican field.

 

[NDgradstudent]

I have had enough of hearing about the importance of voting for Ms. Clinton so that we can have our "first woman President." Margaret Thatcher became Prime Minister of the U.K. when Ms. Clinton was 31 years old. Nor was Thatcher married to the man who was Prime Minister 20 years prior. Nor did she play the put-upon woman while campaigning (e.g., by crying on camera, as Ms. Clinton did in 2008 in NH).

The U.K. election a month from now actually has some intrigue, excitement, and novelty. Meanwhile, I examine our field -ostensibly led by Ms. Clinton- and I forget which country has a monarchy!

 

[Buster Bluth]

I would take her. That said, I'd take Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren first.

There'd be a 0% chance that Sanders could win the general though. America will not elect a self-described socialist.

 

[Buster Bluth]

If there were a viable Libertarian third party you would have folks like Huntsman, Paul(s), Johnson (WI), and many others that would probably be carrying that flag instead of an R. Given the dynamics of the two party system, you are forced to carry one banner or the other if you want to have a snowball's chance in hell of 1) being elected, 2) being effective in DC. Ron Paul is probably the best example.

This is the intriguing part for me. Rand Paul is appeasing Republicans with his recent moves to the center, but what would a libertarian President look like with the same oligarchy's Congress?

My fear is that lobbyist would use the "smaller government" ammunition to chisel away specific regulations that don't fit their special corporate interests.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I would take her. That said, I'd take Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren first.

I'd much prefer Jim Webb.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I'd much prefer Jim Webb.

I like Webb a lot. And, as a veteran, he appeals to that side of the electorate very well. Though I expected it to be a strength for Kerry before the Swiftboat Vets started their negative ads.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

There'd be a 0% chance that Sanders could win the general though. America will not elect a self-described socialist.

Oh, I know. He just asked if I REALLY wanted Hillary to be president. I would rather have Bernie because he's so strong against corporate corruption. But it won't ever happen.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I'd much prefer Jim Webb.

Just had a conversation with some friends last weekend about how we're hoping he gets in the race. He's really the only hope of preventing a Clinton presidency in my view.

 

[Emcee77]

Just had a conversation with some friends last weekend about how we're hoping he gets in the race. He's really the only hope of preventing a Clinton presidency in my view.

You think? I've loved the guy ever since he started as a VA senator, but I don't think he can win. I don't think there is any hope of preventing a Clinton nomination. But they said that in the run-up to the 2008 primaries, too, I guess.

 

[EddytoNow]

I like Webb a lot. And, as a veteran, he appeals to that side of the electorate very well. Though I expected it to be a strength for Kerry before the Swiftboat Vets started their negative ads.

John Kerry is probably the most qualified person in the United States to serve as our president. Longtime Senator, former veteran, foreign policy experience, calm and cool, . It's a shame the negative campaigning of the Swift Boat lies was able to derail his bid for the presidency. We missed out on what could have been one of our best presidents in a long time. Instead, we settled for a second term of George W. Bush and the backlash against the Bush administration's deceit that gave us Obama.

 

[RDU Irish]

John Kerry is probably the most qualified person in the United States to serve as our president. Longtime Senator, former veteran, foreign policy experience, calm and cool, . It's a shame the negative campaigning of the Swift Boat lies was able to derail his bid for the presidency. We missed out on what could have been one of our best presidents in a long time. Instead, we settled for a second term of George W. Bush and the backlash against the Bush administration's deceit that gave us Obama.

I will grant you Kerry would have been better than Obama. However, I would still vote Bush over him knowing what we know today.

 

[RDU Irish]

This is the intriguing part for me. Rand Paul is appeasing Republicans with his recent moves to the center, but what would a libertarian President look like with the same oligarchy's Congress?

My fear is that lobbyist would use the "smaller government" ammunition to chisel away specific regulations that don't fit their special corporate interests.

Good points. Counterpoint- weren't all of those regulations put in place by special interests in the first place? Aren't you just saying that there are allies to be found for these policies, as they say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

Rand has to move to center to get the nomination. Look at Kerry and Obama. Two of the most liberal senators who got the nomination by running toward the center. All the best ideas in the world don't count for squat if you are never in a position to put them to use.

 

[Buster Bluth]

John Kerry is probably the most qualified person in the United States to serve as our president. Longtime Senator, former veteran, foreign policy experience, calm and cool, . It's a shame the negative campaigning of the Swift Boat lies was able to derail his bid for the presidency. We missed out on what could have been one of our best presidents in a long time. Instead, we settled for a second term of George W. Bush and the backlash against the Bush administration's deceit that gave us Obama.

Kerry and Bush were practically identical candidates in 2004.

Good points. Counterpoint- weren't all of those regulations put in place by special interests in the first place? Aren't you just saying that there are allies to be found for these policies, as they say, politics makes for strange bedfellows.

It depends, obviously, on the particular regulation. I guess I'm speaking broadly of my fear. When I hear people on the Right talk about smaller government and that their first target is the EPA, I cringe.

Rand has to move to center to get the nomination. Look at Kerry and Obama. Two of the most liberal senators who got the nomination by running toward the center. All the best ideas in the world don't count for squat if you are never in a position to put them to use.

I think it's tough to tell though. As with Romney in 2012, you could tell he was flipping views to get the nomination and didn't buy even what he was saying. We don't know what would've happened as President.

I think Obama is a good example of my fear though. He moved to the center to win the election, and I don't think he moved back. Despite what conservative radio and Fox might say, he's been a rather centrist President. For a guy who had the one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate on day one, he's hasn't exactly been a full-blown liberal on things like the War on Terror, War on Drugs, surveillance, TPP, etc.

 

[zelezo vlk]

Kerry and Bush were practically identical candidates in 2004.

How could you say such a thing? Clearly they were so different

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Jeb Bush is a very typical Reagan republican. The right has moved so far to the right that you don't even remember what center is anymore. Guys like George HW Bush and Bob Dole would be called RINOs in this crazy republican atmosphere.

Disagree. I believe the left has gone sooooo far left that the GOP has drifted left just to appear middle of the road. Ted Cruz isn't the face of the GOP. Neither is Huckabee or Santorum. But one can look at Obama, Reid and Pelosi as the face of the DNC.

If Reagan were alive I think he'd pull a "get off my plane" segment from Harrison Ford in Air Force One. Same with McCain. And Boehner. And McConnell.

And hell, in today's DNC Bill Clinton would be labeled a business friendly DINO who hurt poor families by reforming welfare, and was threatening war with Iraq in 1998 by warning Saddam not to pursue nuclear weapons.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Kerry and Bush were practically identical candidates in 2004.



It depends, obviously, on the particular regulation. I guess I'm speaking broadly of my fear. When I hear people on the Right talk about smaller government and that their first target is the EPA, I cringe.



I think it's tough to tell though. As with Romney in 2012, you could tell he was flipping views to get the nomination and didn't buy even what he was saying. We don't know what would've happened as President.

I think Obama is a good example of my fear though. He moved to the center to win the election, and I don't think he moved back. Despite what conservative radio and Fox might say, he's been a rather centrist President. For a guy who had the one of the most liberal voting records in the Senate on day one, he's hasn't exactly been a full-blown liberal on things like the War on Terror, War on Drugs, surveillance, TPP, etc.

I know it's been a few years, but have you forgotten the "stimulus" and ACA?

 

[pkt77242]

I know it's been a few years, but have you forgotten the "stimulus" and ACA?

Neither of which was that liberal. The ACA was pretty much a version of one of the Conservative plans for healthcare in the 1990's. Care to explain how that is so liberal?

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I know it's been a few years, but have you forgotten the "stimulus" and ACA?

The GOP likes "stimulus" just as much as the DNC. They just prefer to stimulate the military-industrial complex.

 

[pkt77242]

Disagree. I believe the left has gone sooooo far left that the GOP has drifted left just to appear middle of the road. Ted Cruz isn't the face of the GOP. Neither is Huckabee or Santorum. But one can look at Obama, Reid and Pelosi as the face of the DNC.

If Reagan were alive I think he'd pull a "get off my plane" segment from Harrison Ford in Air Force One. Same with McCain. And Boehner. And McConnell.

And hell, in today's DNC Bill Clinton would be labeled a business friendly DINO who hurt poor families by reforming welfare, and was threatening war with Iraq in 1998 by warning Saddam not to pursue nuclear weapons.

What? Um both sides have somewhat drifted away from the middle (the Republicans probably more so then the Democrats though).

How much do you know about Reagan? Reagan would find much more in common with McCain, Boehner and McConnell then he would with Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Disagree. I believe the left has gone sooooo far left that the GOP has drifted left just to appear middle of the road.

You mean the party that in the 1970s had Nixon, who created the EPA and proposed both a national health-care plan and a basic income program?

The party that in the 1980s had Reagan, who granted amnesty to three million illegal Mexicans, drastically increased federal spending, liberalized abortion access while governor, and raised taxes eleven times as President (not to mention the then-largest tax increase in California's history as governor)?

The party that in the 1990s had a Congress that got along pretty well with a Democratic President and proposed national health care plans and even carbon trade measures?

I don't think there are very many political scientists who think the GOP has "drifted left" lately. I think one of the disastrous effect of cable news, on both sides, has pushed the Left left and the Right right. I think the fellows on conservative radio are cashing in on end-of-the-country-as-we-know-it bullshit that they wouldn't dare say when their guy was in office.

Oh and I think ultimately the parties' corporate donor daddies are keeping corporate regulation and tax reform off the agenda completely so even while both parties move further apart they're basically identical at the same time. In 2004 Bush/Kerry were the same thing, and I think Clinton/Bush in 2016 will basically replicate that.

 

[Buster Bluth]

This, I believe, can be attributed to cable news more than anything:

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Neither of which was that liberal. The ACA was pretty much a version of one of the Conservative plans for healthcare in the 1990's. Care to explain how that is so liberal?

That's already been discussed numerous times in this thread. Forcing citizens to buy a product is liberal. Ramming it through Congress with zero Republican votes hardly makes it a conservative plan or idea.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The GOP likes "stimulus" just as much as the DNC. They just prefer to stimulate the military-industrial complex.

I just finished the book "By way of the knife" by Mark Mazzetti. Fascinating, and I was surprised to see that despite some of his rhetoric, Obama is no soft guy on terrorism.

"Whatever CIA wants, it will get from me" referring to drone strikes/ authorization was one I remember.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

What? Um both sides have somewhat drifted away from the middle (the Republicans probably more so then the Democrats though).

How much do you know about Reagan? Reagan would find much more in common with McCain, Boehner and McConnell then he would with Rand Paul, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio, etc.

Not a shot in hell.

 

[pkt77242]

That's already been discussed numerous times in this thread. Forcing citizens to buy a product is liberal. Ramming it through Congress with zero Republican votes hardly makes it a conservative plan or idea.

Zero Republican votes had nothing to do with it being liberal or not, it had to do with denying Obama a signature policy victory. As had already been discussed many times, the ACA was basically one of the conservative plans that was given as an option vs. Clinton's universal healthcare (and if you still think that it is "liberal" then doesn't that say how far right the Republicans have moved, that one of their own policy ideas 20+ years ago is now "liberal"). Sorry.

 

[pkt77242]

Not a shot in hell.

You can say that all you want but you would be wrong. Reagan was a rather centrist Republican and he was willing to compromise to make deals. He is significantly closer to Boehner and McCain then he is to the tea party crowd who tries to claim him. You can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Zero Republican votes had nothing to do with it being liberal or not, it had to do with denying Obama a signature policy victory. As had already been discussed many times, the ACA was basically one of the conservative plans that was given as an option vs. Clinton's universal healthcare (and if you still think that it is "liberal" then doesn't that say how far right the Republicans have moved, that one of their own policy ideas 20+ years ago is now "liberal"). Sorry.

Agree to disagree.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

You can say that all you want but you would be wrong. Reagan was a rather centrist Republican and he was willing to compromise to make deals. He is significantly closer to Boehner and McCain then he is to the tea party crowd who tries to claim him. You can deny all you want, but it doesn't change the facts.

You have noted only opinions, not facts so far. And I also noticed you completely ignored my Bill Clinton comments in regards to the modern day DNC.

 

[NDgradstudent]

The party that in the 1980s had Reagan, who granted amnesty to three million illegal Mexicans, drastically increased federal spending, liberalized abortion access while governor, and raised taxes eleven times as President (not to mention the then-largest tax increase in California's history as governor)?

Reagan of course later changed his view on abortion (as did, say, Ted Kennedy, who as late as 1972 was comparing abortion to murder). Even in the 1960s, most Republicans were against abortion and most Democrats were in favor of it: when the NY legislature approved a liberal abortion law in 1970, for example, across both chambers over 60% of Republicans were against it and over 60% of Democrats were in favor of it. The 1976 GOP platform takes the same basic view on abortion as does the GOP today: "The Republican Party...supports the efforts of those who seek enactment of a constitutional amendment to restore protection of the right to life for unborn children." Meanwhile, the Democrats simply said "it is undesirable to attempt to amend the U.S. Constitution to overturn the Supreme Court decision in this area." Nothing about safe, legal, and rare (of course "rare" has now been abandoned; how long until "frequent" is put in its place?) nor indeed any demands for public funding of abortion, as we got implicitly in the 2012 platform.

As for immigration, there is no question the GOP usually bows to corporate interests, which support unlimited mass immigration for obvious reasons. Given the way the 1986 amnesty has ruined California, though, I wonder if Reagan would still think it was a prudent policy.

 

[pkt77242]

You have noted only opinions, not facts so far. And I also noticed you completely ignored my Bill Clinton comments in regards to the modern day DNC.

Buster has already covered the facts. Also I have said that Democrats have moved to the left just not as much as the Republicans have moved to the right.