Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

Grahambo

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I feel like I need to vent some things and am turning to IE, as this thread (what I've read of it) seems to have much cooler heads than just about anywhere I've seen... hopefully this serves as helpful and doesn't add fuel to anything...

This whole thing from just about every angle just saddens and worries me... And it's really troubling how it seems both sides are being represented in the National Media by the militant fringe...

First as a Christian, bake the cake and give them a hand shake and a smile... Then I see signs or read statements here or there discussing gay issues from a 'Christian stance' and it's just disgusting how little connection to actual Christian morality there is being displayed at times...

I'm also saddened at how people who insist they are the tolerate ones in all of this are approaching those who think differently.

Another thing that troubles me is the insistent comparison to African American civil rights... The two are not even close, these establishments are not refusing service across the board, there are no 'no gays allowed' signs, there are no mass un-prosecuted lynchings and fire hoses being turned on gay rights advocates... There's not much to compare.

Anyway, the extremes on both side of this thing seem to have everyone's attention right now, and I don't think that's helping anything... The more I hear about it the more I wish I could just unplug and get a ranch in Montana somewhere and let the world destroy itself from safe distance.

In the world of social media that we live in today, people are extremely quick to get their verse heard without preparing a proper argument, debate, rebuttal. I've heard several very well thought out arguments that won't gain traction because extreme sells. Extreme moves the needle.
 

connor_in

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I feel like I need to vent some things and am turning to IE, as this thread (what I've read of it) seems to have much cooler heads than just about anywhere I've seen... hopefully this serves as helpful and doesn't add fuel to anything...

This whole thing from just about every angle just saddens and worries me... And it's really troubling how it seems both sides are being represented in the National Media by the militant fringe...

First as a Christian, bake the cake and give them a hand shake and a smile... Then I see signs or read statements here or there discussing gay issues from a 'Christian stance' and it's just disgusting how little connection to actual Christian morality there is being displayed at times...

I'm also saddened at how people who insist they are the tolerate ones in all of this are approaching those who think differently.

Another thing that troubles me is the insistent comparison to African American civil rights... The two are not even close, these establishments are not refusing service across the board, there are no 'no gays allowed' signs, there are no mass un-prosecuted lynchings and fire hoses being turned on gay rights advocates... There's not much to compare.

Anyway, the extremes on both side of this thing seem to have everyone's attention right now, and I don't think that's helping anything... The more I hear about it the more I wish I could just unplug and get a ranch in Montana somewhere and let the world destroy itself from safe distance.


<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/BJESLxEd0Tk" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Irish Storm

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I wasn't sure where to put this. If it needs moved then so be it. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. I have watched enough shows on the history channel on the jfk assassination to reasonably assume that Oswald acted alone.

Having said that, one thing has always bugged me about the rfk assassination. How did Sirhan know to be waiting in the kitchen if that was a last second change of exit by rfk's camp?
 

Quinntastic

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I know that I, personally, think it is awful business practice to exclude ANYONE from purchasing your products/services. So if I know of a business who excludes based on any criteria, for any reason, I will simply not give my business to them. Money talks. I choose to let my pocketbook do the talking when it comes to situations like these. No need for me to start harassing the owners, spewing hatred all over the internet, etc.
 

Irish#1

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I wasn't sure where to put this. If it needs moved then so be it. I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist. I have watched enough shows on the history channel on the jfk assassination to reasonably assume that Oswald acted alone.

Having said that, one thing has always bugged me about the rfk assassination. How did Sirhan know to be waiting in the kitchen if that was a last second change of exit by rfk's camp?

What about the second shooter?
Why did JFK's head snap back?
How did Ruby gain access to a restricted area to silence Oswald?
 

Irish YJ

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What about the second shooter?
Why did JFK's head snap back?
How did Ruby gain access to a restricted area to silence Oswald?

lol. seriously, there is a lot of BS out there, but there is enough fact and data, circumstantial or not, etc. to suggest there is a lot more to what happen. we'll be long gone before the truth comes out. by then, it will be like meh, that was like 100 years ago..
 

connor_in

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I know that I, personally, think it is awful business practice to exclude ANYONE from purchasing your products/services. So if I know of a business who excludes based on any criteria, for any reason, I will simply not give my business to them. Money talks. I choose to let my pocketbook do the talking when it comes to situations like these. No need for me to start harassing the owners, spewing hatred all over the internet, etc.

That is how the market forces are supposed to work. Good on you!
 

connor_in

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What about the second shooter?
Why did JFK's head snap back?
How did Ruby gain access to a restricted area to silence Oswald?

pm21512.jpg


back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left
back and to the left


Jim Garrison: Up is down... Black is white. We are through the looking glass here people.

Jim Garrison: "Let justice be done though the heavens fall."


MOV_f59ef0b3_b.jpg
 

IrishLax

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connor_in

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Embedding for everyone:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RgWIhYAtan4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Funny thing is I bet none of them have their businesses targeted/shut down like the aforementioned ones.

You mean...

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/K8E_zMLCRNg" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

from the Twitter lynch mob?
 

Whiskeyjack

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Funny thing is I bet none of them have their businesses targeted/shut down like the aforementioned ones.

The Left has identified Muslims as a persecuted minority, so they get a pass. Christians, though, are The Man™, which means that they're fair game.

Cultural Marxism is right.
 

phgreek

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Embedding for everyone:
<iframe width="640" height="360" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/RgWIhYAtan4?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Funny thing is I bet none of them have their businesses targeted/shut down like the aforementioned ones.

...I'm guessing LGBT silence is related to a calculus...its easy to raise awareness on the backs of Christians because the media loves that. As well these people are cowards. I believe none of them are willing to target Muslims because they are afraid of the response...1) that they may get called out for targeting a quasi protected group, and 2) they are actually too afraid for their safety to mess with a Muslim. Yea you can say "you don't know that" ...but I think its part of their consideration. Either way there is a component of the LGBT community that is detrimental to their cause...it it is going to cost them if they do not reel them in.
 

Quinntastic

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...I'm guessing LGBT silence is related to a calculus...its easy to raise awareness on the backs of Christians because the media loves that. As well these people are cowards. I believe none of them are willing to target Muslims because they are afraid of the response...1) that they may get called out for targeting a quasi protected group, and 2) they are actually too afraid for their safety to mess with a Muslim. Yea you can say "you don't know that" ...but I think its part of their consideration. Either way there is a component of the LGBT community that is detrimental to their cause...it it is going to cost them if they do not reel them in.

I could insert any group/category of people in where you put "LGBT" and it would be true. That's just a reality of people/society in general. There will always be people at the extreme ends of the spectrum, in any spectrum you look at, that make the rest of the people in the rational, middle, part of the spectrum look bad. It is not just phenomenon of the LGBT community.
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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A better parallel to this debate than Jim Crow would be redlining and racial steering in real estate. These were all discriminatory practices done by private institutions and were legal at a point in time. If any of you aren't familiar with this I encourage you to read up on it:

Redlining - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Racial steering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

When we decided as a nation that institutionalized racial discrimination, public or private, was no longer OK, laws were passed to make these practices illegal through the Fair Housing Act. My mom is a realtor, and if she is found to be in violation of the FHA, she can not only loose her real estate license, she can be personally sued as well. It doesn't matter that she is a private individual, she can't discriminate against someone in her business for being black, jewish, muslim, or any other group. Banks aren't allowed to to deny someone a mortgage for the same reasons. It doesn't matter what my mom's or the bank's beliefs are, be they cultural, religious, or political.

My point is that there is absolutely precedent of legislating against discriminatory business practices.
 

Whiskeyjack

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My point is that there is absolutely precedent of legislating against discriminatory business practices.

No one here has argued otherwise. The question is whether religious minorities should be granted a day in court before the government is allowed to compel them to participate in activities they find deeply sinful. IE's Progressives have responded with a resounding, "No."
 

phgreek

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I could insert any group/category of people in where you put "LGBT" and it would be true. That's just a reality of people/society in general. There will always be people at the extreme ends of the spectrum, in any spectrum you look at, that make the rest of the people in the rational, middle, part of the spectrum look bad. It is not just phenomenon of the LGBT community.

For sure...but LGBT happened to be the topic we were discussing...???

I do think there is more tolerance for LGBT radicals than other groups at the moment, but that sentiment changes quickly, and people are not real good at signaling when that occurs, and radicals aren't real good at hearing/seeing/heeding signs to moderate for the good of the movement. Judging by the works of "radicals" as of late, I think LGBT moderates will have some damage to deal with.
 

connor_in

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Question:

Should the LGBT community and associated Twitter mob be against the "agreement" the administration is completing with Iran (or any interaction with any Muslim country) due to the way they treat LGBT's in said Muslim country? If not, why not?

Serious question, not a gotcha question.
 

GoldenToTheGrave

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The Left has identified Muslims as a persecuted minority, so they get a pass. Christians, though, are The Man™, which means that they're fair game.

Cultural Marxism is right.

Ultra-Orthodox Jews also seem to get a pass as well:

Groups of ultra-Orthodox Jewish men keep delaying flights by refusing to sit next to women - World - News - The Independent

When it comes down to it it's all discrimination regardless what belief system they choose to defend it with. Backlash tends to be directed against those with social/political power regardless of who's beliefs are most morally objectionable. In America, that wouldn't be Muslims.
 

Black Irish

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Where in the Constitution does it say that you have the inalienable right to have someone bake you a cake? Good lord, if someone doesn't want to make you a wedding cake because they don't like who you are, call that person an asshole, walk out, and go to another bakery. It isn't that difficult. Sheesh.
 

Quinntastic

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I think my main problem with this whole argument is that it begins to be a "slippery slope" in the other direction. When the government steps in and starts telling people who they can/can't discriminate against (you can discriminate against gays but not blacks, transgenders but not jews, gays but only if it's for a wedding, but not gays if they just come into your pizza shop wanting a pizza on a Friday night) is that what is to stop me from refusing to issue you blood when you come in to the emergency room hemorrhaging because you're there with your boyfriend and I'm fundamentally against gays? Or if you're Muslim and I'm Christian?

Where does that line go? I think the government needs to make a sweeping "no discriminating against anyone, no matter what, no matter what your personal beliefs, period" law that is for everybody - or else stay out of the entire argument completely and let the chips fall where they may - and see where that domino effect really takes us as a society. But saying 'these groups of people deserve protections, but these groups of people don't deserve protections' is incredibly unfair. PERIOD.
 
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GoldenToTheGrave

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No one here has argued otherwise. The question is whether religious minorities should be granted a day in court before the government is allowed to compel them to participate in activities they find deeply sinful. IE's Progressives have responded with a resounding, "No."

I don't care if someone is a Satanist, I think it would be wrong to deny someone a mortgage for that reason. How is denying service to a gay person any different?
 

Whiskeyjack

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When it comes down to it it's all discrimination regardless what belief system they choose to defend it with. Backlash tends to be directed against those with social/political power regardless of who's beliefs are most morally objectionable. In America, that wouldn't be Muslims.

You greatly overestimate the power of Christians and social conservatives in America today. They're the useful idiots of the GOP. Dutifully turning out to support whatever candidates makes pious noises on the campaign trail, but when it comes to the actual exercise of power, they're at best forgotten, or at worst openly disdained.

See this article from just a couple months ago about the allegedly "pro-life" GOP's unwillingness to take an easy lay-up against abortion.

Or the decision of Arkansas' GOP governor to throw his own state's RFRA bill under the bus when Wal-Mart's CEO simply cleared his throat.

Or Mike Pence's complete and utter failure to defend basic principles of religious liberty when Stephanopoulos uttered the word "discrimination".

I could go on. It's clear who the GOP responds to, and it's not Christians and social conservatives. The insane national freakout over Indiana's RFRA and the abject failure of anyone in the GOP to defend it articulately has laid bare a massive fault-line in the party. I hope it causes a lot of religious people to understand how their concerns rate in this country.
 

GoIrish41

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The whole notion that one is participating in a wedding by baking a cake is just silly.

People should just stop being so shitty and self righteous to one another. If you bake cakes for a living and a a customer comes into the store and needs a cake ... bake them a cake. It is really just that simple. Nobody should shit all over people's sexuality, or religion, or race, or anything else. Stop the madness alread. From my upbringing in the church and reading of scriptures, I'm positive that Jesus would have baked the cake so stop trying to use his teachings as a basis to support your "right" to be a prick to other human beings. Fuck these people. I hope nobody ever buys a cake from them again. That about sums up my feelings on this whole topic. Basic human decency trumps all!
 
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Whiskeyjack

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I think my main problem with this whole argument is that it begins to be a "slippery slope" in the other direction. When the government steps in and starts telling people who they can/can't discriminate against (you can discriminate against gays but not blacks, transgenders but not jews, gays but only if it's for a wedding, but not gays if they just come into your pizza shop wanting a pizza on a Friday night) is that what is to stop me from refusing to issue you blood when you come in to the emergency room hemorrhaging because you're there with your boyfriend and I'm fundamentally against gays? Or if you're Muslim and I'm Christian?

Where does that line go? I think the government needs to make a sweeping "no discriminating against anyone, no matter what, no matter what your personal beliefs, period" law that is for everybody - or else stay out of the entire argument completely and let the chips fall where they may - and see where that domino effect really takes us as a society. But saying 'these groups of people deserve protections, but these groups of people don't deserve protections' is incredibly unfair. PERIOD.

First Amendment jurisprudence has not developed in such a black and white fashion. Civil laws of general application will invariably conflict with the religious beliefs of some people. Our practice has been to allow such religious minorities a day in court to argue that they should be exempt from such laws. If the court finds that: (1) their religious beliefs are sincere; (2) the civil law substantially burdens their beliefs; and either (3) the government doesn't have a compelling interest in doing so; or (4) can achieve its desired end in a way that is less burdensome upon the religious minority, then we've tended to grant exemptions because Madison felt that religious freedom was the most important of our civil liberties.

We've been using this judicial balancing test for decades, and yet we haven't slipped back into apartheid. Precedent indicates that your slippery slope concerns are misplaced.

I don't care if someone is a Satanist, I think it would be wrong to deny someone a mortgage for that reason. How is denying service to a gay person any different?

Because compelling someone to violate his conscience is tyrannical. If a Muslim or fundamentalist Christian declines to serve a gay marriage on religious grounds, the court should apply the balancing test above. If his beliefs are sincere and granting him an exemption would not effectively deny a public accommodation to the gay patrons (in other words, there are other vendors in town offering the same service), then he should be granted an exemption.

It's important to note that over the last 20+ years, no RFRA statute has successfully defended a proprietor's discrimination. These exemptions are, by definition, intended to be rare, and precedent proves that they are.
 
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phgreek

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I think my main problem with this whole argument is that it begins to be a "slippery slope" in the other direction. When the government steps in and starts telling people who they can/can't discriminate against (you can discriminate against gays but not blacks, transgenders but not jews, gays but only if it's for a wedding, but not gays if they just come into your pizza shop wanting a pizza on a Friday night) is that what is to stop me from refusing to issue you blood when you come in to the emergency room hemorrhaging because you're there with your boyfriend and I'm fundamentally against gays? Or if you're Muslim and I'm Christian?

Where does that line go? I think the government needs to make a sweeping "no discriminating against anyone, no matter what, no matter what your personal beliefs, period" law that is for everybody - or else stay out of the entire argument completely and let the chips fall where they may - and see where that domino effect really takes us as a society. But saying 'these groups of people deserve protections, but these groups of people don't deserve protections' is incredibly unfair. PERIOD.

I would address this issue as one of resources, not intent. It is clear the government tries to act to balance, but it can't enforce everything. It defines special classes for purposeful attention to achieve balance. I think the hope is these pointed focus points will eventually lead to self sustaining equality. Not going to argue the merits of that approach, but that it exists because we are resource limited...

I realize a focus point is LGBT at present. As such anyone with a counterpoint will be quashed...in this case it just so happens to be Christians. I think the arguments comparing this to slavery and Jim Crow are absurd. There is no foundational christian basis for any of that with which to have a claim. There is however a christian foundational claim to marriage that runs contrary to LGBT. The laws to preserve a christian person's right to be heard in court are a reaction to being quashed as if there isn't a legitimate doctrinal issue at play.
 

IrishLax

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The whole notion that one is participating in a wedding by baking a cake is just silly.

People should just stop being so shitty and self righteous to one another. If you bake cakes for a living and a a customer comes into the store and needs a cake ... bake them a cake. It is really just that simple. Nobody should shit all over people's sexuality, or religion, or race, or anything else. Stop the madness alread.

I agree with this, but personally I have trouble reconciling two points of view. On one hand, I think something "trivial" shouldn't be such a big deal and people shouldn't refuse to service to anyone... but then I think of things like how some Orthodox Jews refuse to sit next to women on planes because of their religion, and I sure as hell don't think they should be forced to when it clearly violates their beliefs... and that's something that seems quite "trivial" to most people. So, in short, I have a tough time making blanket statements about right vs. wrong, should vs. shouldn't, etc. when it comes to people's beliefs and what is worth "making a stand" over.

From my upbringing in the church and reading of scriptures, I'm positive that Jesus would have baked the cake so stop trying to use his teachings as a basis to support your "right" to be a prick to other human beings. Fuck these people. I hope nobody ever buys a cake from them again. That about sums up my feelings on this whole topic. Basic human decency trumps all!

I don't know, he was carpenter...

Kidding aside, it's weird because Jesus was "Everybody love everybody".... except he simultaneously wasn't. He took a stand on a number of things, and there are a lot of sermons that are very much "if you live your life this way, it's wrong" with respect to sinful people. What he was about was forgiveness more than blanket acceptance when you look at what was said about the rich/greedy/etc. and heaven.

Would he have baked a cake for a tax collector party?
 
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