Politics

[IrishJayhawk]

Politifact....

How about Reuters?

U.S. hospitals make fewer serious errors; 50,000 lives saved | Reuters

Politifact just checked with health experts to see if the claims were credible.

 

[kmoose]

Religious Conservatives in this country are not respecting the LGBT community's sincerely held belief that they should be treated the same and as equals.

I have friends who are LGBT, and I support equal rights for them in terms of making medical decisions for partners, inheriting property, etc.; just like any married couple would get. But serious question: Gays themselves refer to their lifestyle as an "alternative lifestyle". That begs the question... alternative to what? Well, to mainstream society. So the gay community, themselves, have for decades described themselves as being outside of mainstream society. Yet, now all of the sudden, they are demanding to be not just included, but celebrated, within mainstream society. I just think it is unfair for a relatively small segment of society to demand that the rest of the planet bow down and show them favored treatment.

 

[Whiskeyjack]

First off, I am a Catholic and a Christian. I hate to admit it, but the Catholic Church has gone through multiple periods when it behaved in an un-Christian manner.

Did I argue otherwise?

The whole missionary concept of saving the heathens from themselves wasn't very Christ-like.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." (Matthew 28:19-20) Of course many fallible missionaries have failed to live up to Christ's example, but the exhortation to evangelize the world comes directly from the Gospels.

Missionaries were followed by conquering armies that subdued and then stole land and resources from the native people leaving them in poverty.

Bluto had a good post earlier in this thread about the dichotomy between Catholics--who tended to convert and assimilate native populations--and Protestants--who were more apt to conquer and kill.

Just because something is being done by Christians doesn't mean it is morally correct.

Again, where did I argue this?

However, and I would like to emphasize this point, Christians have also done a lot of good for the poor and the hungry.

The Christian legacy is a lot more than simple charity work. It's the entire foundation of Western civilization. This very debate over "rights" would be incomprehensible without the Christian theory of the equality of all souls before God.

IMHO this isn't a fight Christians should be waging. We should be out helping the downtrodden, not refusing to bake a cake because, heaven forbid, a gay couple may celebrate their marriage by sharing the cake with their family and friends.

No argument there. See the article I posted on the last page about whether Jesus would bake the cake. Lots of Christians deeply resent being defined by these sorts of political battles.

We have more important battles to fight.

That said, Christians absolutely need to fight for Freedom of Conscience. From the HHS mandate to the coming battles over 501(c)(3) status for churches who refuse to perform SSMs, freedom of religion has never been less secure in this country.

We Christians are good at talking the talk, but very few of us can walk the walk. Rather than showing up for a one hour service on Sundays, our time would be better served in acting Christ-like seven days a week. Mother Teresa set the example. I don't see many following in her footsteps.

She's well on her way to being canonized. By definition, there aren't many people living lives of heroic virtue. But you don't seem to think much of your Church, which is a shame. It's the largest charitable organization on the planet, and the source of most of your political values.

 

[IrishinSyria]

Right, that's what I meant when I said "You're already allowed to do it 100% legally everywhere in the country that doesn't have a local law forbidding it." But I think you get your point... it does maybe change the status quo of some places in Indiana that did already have sexual orientation, etc. as a protected class... so it is very relevant, even if only for those places.

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure Indianapolis is the big one.

I guess my question is if this law doesn't legalize discrimination against certain groups, what does it do? Religion is already protected by Federal laws, and all the other RFRAs were passed in the early 90's. Is the best defense of the law an argument that it doesn't change anything?

 

[pkt77242]

I have friends who are LGBT, and I support equal rights for them in terms of making medical decisions for partners, inheriting property, etc.; just like any married couple would get. But serious question: Gays themselves refer to their lifestyle as an "alternative lifestyle". That begs the question... alternative to what? Well, to mainstream society. So the gay community, themselves, have for decades described themselves as being outside of mainstream society. Yet, now all of the sudden, they are demanding to be not just included, but celebrated, within mainstream society. I just think it is unfair for a relatively small segment of society to demand that the rest of the planet bow down and show them favored treatment.

Favored treatment? Care to explain? I would say that they want the same treatment.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I have friends who are LGBT, and I support equal rights for them in terms of making medical decisions for partners, inheriting property, etc.; just like any married couple would get. But serious question: Gays themselves refer to their lifestyle as an "alternative lifestyle". That begs the question... alternative to what? Well, to mainstream society. So the gay community, themselves, have for decades described themselves as being outside of mainstream society. Yet, now all of the sudden, they are demanding to be not just included, but celebrated, within mainstream society. I just think it is unfair for a relatively small segment of society to demand that the rest of the planet bow down and show them favored treatment.

What in the fucking fuck..

 

[GoIrish41]

What in the fucking fuck..

Well stated!!!

 

[Irish YJ]

I'm against this law and pro-gay marriage, and believe no business that's open to the public should deny anyone based on their sexual orientation or other factor. That said, I don't see anything wrong with a photographer (with staunch religious views) to decline from working at a gay weeding. I'm also OK with a privately owned business (with morale convictions) hiring, or not hiring who they want.

I can understand both sides. Everybody has the right to be who they want to be, think what they want think, believe what they want to believe. Flip the situation, would a Jewish owned deli want to serve someone with Neo Nazi tattoos (even if they acted civil).

Mixing religion, race, politics, etc. here, but it all boils down to some people will always disagree with others' lifestyles, religion, etc.. I'm not a big fan of forcing folks to go against their core beliefs (even if I disagree with them).

 

[Grahambo]

I love Jesus...and God...and the Holy Spirit...and the Bible...and my friends...and my family...and Notre Dame...and good food...and happiness...and people who are happy...and IE...and chocolate milk...and lifting weights...and video games...

Not hard to love.

 

[IrishJayhawk]

I love Jesus...and God...and the Holy Spirit...and the Bible...and my friends...and my family...and Notre Dame...and good food...and happiness...and people who are happy...and IE...and chocolate milk...and lifting weights...and video games...

Not hard to love.

I love lamp.

 

[connor_in]

I'm against this law and pro-gay marriage, and believe no business that's open to the public should deny anyone based on their sexual orientation or other factor. That said, I don't see anything wrong with a photographer (with staunch religious views) to decline from working at a gay weeding. I'm also OK with a privately owned business (with morale convictions) hiring, or not hiring who they want.

I can understand both sides. Everybody has the right to be who they want to be, think what they want think, believe what they want to believe. Flip the situation, would a Jewish owned deli want to serve someone with Neo Nazi tattoos (even if they acted civil).

Mixing religion, race, politics, etc. here, but it all boils down to some people will always disagree with others' lifestyles, religion, etc.. I'm not a big fan of forcing folks to go against their core beliefs (even if I disagree with them).

Eeeewwww you would serve shirtless shoeless people?

 

[Grahambo]

I love lamp.

See...not hard!

 

[pkt77242]

Delamaide: Bank threat to Democrats backfires

 

[Irish YJ]

Eeeewwww you would serve shirtless shoeless people?

NO DICE. Spicoli was prejudiced against

 

[IrishJayhawk]

USC Athletic Director To Boycott NCAA Meeting: I Have A Gay Son

 

[EddytoNow]

Did I argue otherwise?...

But you don't seem to think much of your Church, which is a shame. It's the largest charitable organization on the planet, and the source of most of your political values.

You are correct. My Catholic upbringing is the source of most of my political values, and the church does do charitable work worldwide. However, I lost faith in my church as an institution when the hierarchy covered up multiple cases of child abuse by the priests I was taught to look up to and respect. I have not lost faith in Christ and the example he set for us all, but I have little tolerance for church leaders who allowed the abuse of children to continue unabated. Nor do I intend to use my religion as an excuse for discriminating against the LGBT community.

 

[dshans]

I love lamp.

Lava?

See...not hard!

So ... Agape not physical?

 

[Cackalacky]

 

[connor_in]

Just like you to post the express orders of our alien overlords!

Sympathizer!

TRAITOR TO THE HUMAN RACE!



















































/ no italics

 

[phgreek]

USC Athletic Director To Boycott NCAA Meeting: I Have A Gay Son

...Is USC paying him to do a job? Are there others expecting him to do his job? Is this preventing him from doing his job? Would his kid understand the circumstances of the situation given this was planned before the issue came about?

Don't spend money while you are there, protest between meetings, and lobby for the thing to be moved next year...but do your damned job.

 

[woolybug25]

Let me give you a story...

My mother's uncle (I'm Greek, that's inner circle family) owns a reasonably famous restaruant business in the Midwest. He has made it his business to hire homeless people to work in his establishment and live in the apartments above it. They live by certain rules, ones that lead to them leaving his business for better opportunities and giving their lives back to them. He's had people steal from him in order to get a fix, only to rehire them and see them actually become contributing citizens. One of which, actually did just that, became wealthy and inherited his estate to him. He took that money and split it between a homeless program and his church.

He was excommunicated from this same church for being gay several years later.

Being Christian and Christian values are important in society. But they can often be misguided. I can't imagine if suppliers, customers and his government would have failed to deliver him the god given right to decency. A man that gave so much to so many people, simply deserves more than that. He had the right to live his life, a righteous one I may add, without worrying about his ability to achieve his American dream with hard work. Every American deserves that right, in my opinion. So I have a great deal of trepidation in any legislature that denies people the fundamental right to to pursue that, simply because of the sex of the person they choose to love.

 

[NDgradstudent]

Being Christian and Christian values are important in society. But they can often be misguided. I can't imagine if suppliers, customers and his government would have failed to deliver him the god given right to decency. A man that gave so much to so many people, simply deserves more than that. He had the right to live his life, a righteous one I may add, without worrying about his ability to achieve his American dream with hard work. Every American deserves that right, in my opinion. So I have a great deal of trepidation in any legislature that denies people the fundamental right to to pursue that, simply because of the sex of the person they choose to love.

That's interesting, but none of this is relevant to Indiana's law. Nobody is prevented from "pursuing the American dream with hard work" because some photographer declines to photograph their gay wedding. To the contrary, the photographer is the one fined or put in jail for objecting on grounds of conscience.

 

[NDgradstudent]

...Is USC paying him to do a job? Are there others expecting him to do his job? Is this preventing him from doing his job? Would his kid understand the circumstances of the situation given this was planned before the issue came about?

Don't spend money while you are there, protest between meetings, and lobby for the thing to be moved next year...but do your damned job.

This is all a matter of free advertising and PR for status conscious elites. It is hilarious how many people are credulous, though.

 

[pkt77242]

This is all a matter of free advertising and PR for status conscious elites. It is hilarious how many people are credulous, though.

Yep, you are soooo right. No one could possible be legitimately upset by this law.

Also when I think of status conscious elites, the first thing that jumps to mind is Nascar and Walmart.

 

[L-cart ND-ana]

I am confused on tolerance and intolerance in this country. The LGBT obviously want equal rights and I think they should be allowed the same equal rights. The issue I see is it seems as if the LGBT community and even mainstreem America has become intolerant of religion, primarily christian, and call it progressive.

 

[L-cart ND-ana]

I'm against this law and pro-gay marriage, and believe no business that's open to the public should deny anyone based on their sexual orientation or other factor. That said, I don't see anything wrong with a photographer (with staunch religious views) to decline from working at a gay weeding. I'm also OK with a privately owned business (with morale convictions) hiring, or not hiring who they want.

I can understand both sides. Everybody has the right to be who they want to be, think what they want think, believe what they want to believe. Flip the situation, would a Jewish owned deli want to serve someone with Neo Nazi tattoos (even if they acted civil).

Mixing religion, race, politics, etc. here, but it all boils down to some people will always disagree with others' lifestyles, religion, etc.. I'm not a big fan of forcing folks to go against their core beliefs (even if I disagree with them).

So you are not against the law?

 

[IrishJayhawk]

...Is USC paying him to do a job? Are there others expecting him to do his job? Is this preventing him from doing his job? Would his kid understand the circumstances of the situation given this was planned before the issue came about?

Don't spend money while you are there, protest between meetings, and lobby for the thing to be moved next year...but do your damned job.

Doesn't he get to have deeply held religious beliefs? May church mission statements reference the fair treatment of gay and lesbian individuals.

USC is clearly spending money in the state.

Unless I'm mistaken, if you work in my pharmacy, a person can opt out of selling birth control if it violates their religious convictions.

Do your job?

 

[irishff1014]

Arkansas just passed a similar bill that Indiana did.

 

[GoIrish41]

Walmart raises pay well above minimum wage - Feb. 19, 2015

It's about time, but this is heartening to know that such a huge and profitable company is taking notice that their employees are what made them that way. Never thought I'd say this, but way to go Walmart!!!

 

[woolybug25]

That's interesting, but none of this is relevant to Indiana's law. Nobody is prevented from "pursuing the American dream with hard work" because some photographer declines to photograph their gay wedding. To the contrary, the photographer is the one fined or put in jail for objecting on grounds of conscience.

I think I was pretty clear how it was relevant when I mentioned that he wouldn't have been able to pursue his work if his suppliers and government had the right to discriminate against him. You conveniently left that out of the portion you quoted.

I'll break it down further. If his local government gave his suppliers the right to stop all deliveries. I know you love using this same worn out photographer of a gay wedding scenario, but that is not as common as service companies using suppliers. If Sysco and US Foods (they own 3/4 of the food distribution market) decided they wanted to take a religious stance and refuse delivery to any gay owned business. How would those businesses even stay alive?