Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
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    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

pkt77242

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It's somewhat startling to see Whiskey take the time to make, what I thought was a solid explanation, only to have countless people talk about how it's "persecution" of homosexuals.

Should you not be allowed to run a business while simultaneously holding religious values? Does a photographer have a reasonable objection if they don't want to capture a wedding for homosexuals?

If not, then it is seems the ploy is to run anyone with religious beliefs out of the private sector. They can be employed by others, since they won't have any power to operate the business but they are not allowed to go any further. This would in effect create a system that subdues and marginalizes those with fervent belief. And if those beliefs were acceptable in the past but are no longer in vogue, too bad. The mob will hear none of it.

I guess my biggest question is: What makes one complicit? Is there any justifiable reason to object a service?

I would never turn away, think badly of or intend to embarrass any homosexual customers if I were a restaurant owner, sporting good store owner, web developer, etc.

If I were a photographer, a wedding cake baker, a tailor or jewelry designer, wouldn't it seem reasonable for me to feel complicit in the marriage if I'm providing a service or goods that are used in the state-sanctioned union?

Maybe I'm overly sensitive in believing that most people don't "hate gays". I assume most would only object if true complicity was felt (not to mention, I'd be incredibly embarrassed for having to turn anyone away).

If we could somehow give homosexual unions a protected class and still allow businesses to withhold service only on basis of violating moral values, then it may be a happy medium.

I imagine a number of you will find these words bigoted. For that, I apologize.

I don't think Whiskey or you are bigoted. I think the disagreement is about how do you balance the rights of two separate groups when they run opposite of each other (and for that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum). I have stated that I think the baker is kind of a weird case to use because it is actually not used in the wedding (only the reception) and thus it isn't overtly religious. I think a photographer might be a better example for people looking to talk about a religious objection.

I admit that I don't know if there is an easy way to solve this that will make the majority of people happy.

A question to you, would you be ok if a business could turn you away because of your religion? Would it make you upset? How would it make you feel?
 

Polish Leppy 22

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What?

Top Ten largest cities in 1950:

New York City
Chicago
Philadelphia
Los Angeles
Detroit
Baltimore
Cleveland
St. Louis
Washington DC
Boston



Top Ten largest cities in 2010:

New York City
Los Angeles
Chicago
Houston
Philadelphia
Phoenix
San Antonio
San Diego
Dallas
San Jose

800px-Largest_US_cities_graph.png


Again, it all fits perfectly in line with the criticisms of suburbia. In thirty or so years the Dallas suburbs will all need new roofs and appliances, some people simply won't have the money because they maxed out their worth on the mortgage payment, so the rich will move out to nicer places and the poor will move in and be unable to put a new roof on the house, the neighborhood will implode, the city will be left to manage with only poor tax payers, the maintenance costs will undo the place, developers will make cheaper land elsewhere available, the federal government will back those mortgages instead of housing repair because it creates jobs, cities will reach a maximum level of stress before newer cities look more appealing to businesses and people alike. We build cities like the Brazilians farm the rainforest. Set up shop temporarily, use unsustainable practices to suck the life out of the place, move on to newer/cheaper spots later and forget about the damage we just did.

Once again smartest guy in the room has the next 30 years figured out.

"I can't wait for the "see Texas is just the best! Free market! Job creators!" malarkey when in fact the western movement of Americans has been happening since the god damn Mayflower and the southern movement of Americans has been happening for seventy years now." your words

In response, I said these cities have seen the highest migration since 2010. You can say "Americans have been moving west and south for seventy years", but you can't finish that with, "and it's always been to these cities", so something has changed and it shouldn't be brushed off as irrelevant.
 

Polish Leppy 22

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I don't think Whiskey or you are bigoted. I think the disagreement is about how do you balance the rights of two separate groups when they run opposite of each other (and for that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum). I have stated that I think the baker is kind of a weird case to use because it is actually not used in the wedding (only the reception) and thus it isn't overtly religious. I think a photographer might be a better example for people looking to talk about a religious objection.

I admit that I don't know if there is an easy way to solve this that will make the majority of people happy.

A question to you, would you be ok if a business could turn you away because of your religion? Would it make you upset? How would it make you feel?

Depends on the situation. If there's only one grocery store in town, I'm pissed. If there are multiple ones in town, I'm laughing at the idiot who turned me away because they're losing money to a competitor. If they all refuse me, I must be a Christian living under Sharia Law.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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In response, I said these cities have seen the highest migration since 2010. You can say "Americans have been moving west and south for seventy years", but you can't finish that with, "and it's always been to these cities", so something has changed and it shouldn't be brushed off as irrelevant.

It's like you didn't even read the wrote I put on the page.
 

Veritate Duce Progredi

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I don't think Whiskey or you are bigoted. I think the disagreement is about how do you balance the rights of two separate groups when they run opposite of each other (and for that we are on opposite ends of the spectrum). I have stated that I think the baker is kind of a weird case to use because it is actually not used in the wedding (only the reception) and thus it isn't overtly religious. I think a photographer might be a better example for people looking to talk about a religious objection.

I admit that I don't know if there is an easy way to solve this that will make the majority of people happy.

A question to you, would you be ok if a business could turn you away because of your religion? Would it make you upset? How would it make you feel?

Thanks for the gentle response. I was actually nervous before I hit submit because this is a delicate issue. Your question is one I've already asked myself, and I believe if I wanted the same protection, then I have to be okay with it.

I wouldn't do business with the owner on any level after having been denied service because of my religion or race but I would tolerate their rejection, indifference or outright hostility towards me. I could see some extreme anti-theist opposing to take pictures of a Catholic wedding in which I would've gone down my list of preferred vendors and marked him off. Or perhaps a gay photographer would've said he/she was uncomfortable shooting a wedding mass whose institution is rooted in bigotry and hatred.

I'm not so much into the "feeling" of any given situation because feeling is not a static thing. At first I'd feel indignant then perhaps a bit of shame, but I would ultimately end up where I end up every other day, at a place of contentment and realization that I can't control anyone else. (I can barely control myself). I'd make peace with the situation and move on down the list until I found someone who wanted my business.

How would you feel?
 

Bishop2b5

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Or, conversely, maybe people find it disagreeable that a person could be refused service by a for profit organization (with a law that goes further than any previous law has) because of who they are attracted to.

The Indiana law and similar Federal and state laws don't appear to have that as their intent. They're simply protecting business owners from being forced to violate their own moral or religious beliefs.

And no, this isn't some grass roots, man-in-the-street disagreement with a law. It's a very organized and orchestrated effort to push an agenda and force one group to violate their own moral and religious beliefs or be bankrupted and run out of business. I'm not in favor of discriminating against gays. I'm not in favor of discriminating against religious people either though. Nobody's rights are so unlimited that the exercise of them can unduly limit the next person from exercising his rights. There's a middle ground and some balance here in this situation.

If you were black and owned a restaurant, would you host a KKK dinner? What if you were Jewish and owned a tailor shop... should you be forced by law to sew the uniforms for a Nazi/skinhead organization? If you were a musician, would you accept a gig at NAMBLA's summer rally? Should you be forced by law to do any of those things, or would you feel they so violated your moral or religious beliefs that you should have the legal right to refuse? Whether homosexuality is a sin or not, the religious beliefs of many people condemn it, and those people should have their religious rights protected too.
 

Whiskeyjack

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If there is a federal law on the books, what was the need for this new law in Indiana?

The RFRA doesn't apply to the states.

And why now?

Because Elane Photography v. Willock and Sweet Cakes by Melissa in Oregon happened in the interim. In the former, the New Mexico Supreme Court held that its own RFRA didn't apply because "the government is not a party." Thus the expanded language to protect businesses from lawsuits by individuals.

And why not add language to the bill or, better yet, make homosexuals a protected class?

That's a separate argument which, as the two cases above demonstrate, is going to create a lot of unforeseen consequences. But the RFRA provisions should apply equally to LGBT and Christians.

I'm sure others can go more in-depth, but this comes off as a blatant attack on the passing of same sex marriage.

Conversely, it's a reaction to unforeseen legal consequences stemming from the rapid legislation of SSM.

I would point out that a standardized level of insurance (and a reasonable disagreement about what constitutes a religious institution) is different then demanding that a Jewish Baker make a certain type of bread. You certainly can understand that difference.

I don't, really. I see self-righteous Progressives imposing their religion on others in the naive belief that it's somehow neutral and less dogmatic than what their dissenting targets profess.

No it is different and covers businesses. Also if you don't think that the intent behind its passage (even if it won't hold up in court) doesn't matter and doesn't add to the backlash being experienced, then I am flabbergasted.

Yes, it's the RFRA of 1993, but also extended to businesses because of Elane Photography v. Willock. As one who is legitimately concerned about the state of religious freedom in this country, I can easily see this bill being passed in good faith. Your focus on the alleged intent behind the bill, regardless of its content or the precedent set by the RFRA over the past couple decades, makes it clear that you're primarily concerned with punishing evil-doers here.

First off it wouldn't be extended to the gay baker by this law, so again the law is unfair and treats religious people differently by adding more protections to them (on top of the already great protections they have as a protected class).

The protected class thing is a separate argument, and will have even more unintended consequences than SSM. If the issue is reciprocity between Christian- and LGBT-owned businesses being able to refuse business, then that can be easily addresses without smearing one side as bigoted.

Also the wedding cake is a central element in the reception, not the wedding. I have never seen a religious wedding (I have been to many Catholic, Methodist, Christian Non-denominational, Baptist and even a few Jewish weddings) where the cake was any part of the religious ceremony. The cake is not a symbol of religion.

So you're now the arbiter of what a sincere religious objection is? You're clearly convinced that this is all just a contrived religious gloss for poorly-concealed animus towards the LGBT, and it does not seem like you can be convinced otherwise.

Really as if Christians don't do the same, looking for every perceived insult?

Not sure what you mean by this, but it's a fact that Christians have not used civil rights legislation as a legal bludgeon against those who disagree with them.

This is what upsets me the most. You act as if gay people wanting to be treated the same as everyone else is some horrible thing.

There's a difference between insisting on the inherent dignity of LGBT individuals and forcing everyone to pretend that a SSM is identical to a procreative union. But this is just one of a thousand problems that have arisen from divorcing the language of "rights" from the Christian context in which they arose.

Religious conservatives treat gay people as if they are the devil incarnate, and then get upset when the gay community lashes back at them. If Religious Conservatives had treated Gay people as equals then you might have an argument, but they haven't previously and still won't. Sorry while I fill bad for the individuals that suffer because of this, the truth is that Religious Conservatives brought it upon themselves by treating gay people like shit. How did you expect a group to respond when they are being discriminated against frequently?

If this is about revenge, then it makes sense. But don't call it justice. And I won't for a moment argue that Christians haven't mistreated the LGBT community. But this is not how politics in a liberal democracy are supposed to work.
 
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pkt77242

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Thanks for the gentle response. I was actually nervous before I hit submit because this is a delicate issue. Your question is one I've already asked myself, and I believe if I wanted the same protection, then I have to be okay with it.

I wouldn't do business with the owner on any level after having been denied service because of my religion or race but I would tolerate their rejection, indifference or outright hostility towards me. I could see some extreme anti-theist opposing to take pictures of a Catholic wedding in which I would've gone down my list of preferred vendors and marked him off. Or perhaps a gay photographer would've said he/she was uncomfortable shooting a wedding mass whose institution is rooted in bigotry and hatred.

I'm not so much into the "feeling" of any given situation because feeling is not a static thing. At first I'd feel indignant then perhaps a bit of shame, but I would ultimately end up where I end up every other day, at a place of contentment and realization that I can't control anyone else. (I can barely control myself). I'd make peace with the situation and move on down the list until I found someone who wanted my business.

How would you feel?

I think that context is key. When my wife and I got married we got recommendations (and a few don't go there) for our wedding cake. 3 or 4 people recommended the same place so my wife was very excited for our baker. I think in that context I would have been upset and knowing myself I probably would have had some not very nice words to say to the baker, and I would have left. I then would have told everyone I that I talked with what a bigot that person was, though I couldn't imagine suing someone over it. Just like you I would feel ashamed at having been turned away and I would really be bothered knowing how upset my wife (or back then soon to be wife) would be.

I think it also matters that I lived in Phoenix at the time and so would have had many options available to go to. I couldn't imagine living in a small town, where it might be harder to get a replacement service (or having to go with something greatly inferior like a cake from the grocery store). That could color someones reaction as well.

Real life example:
The only time that I have faced overt discrimination in my life was right before college graduation I went to buy a suit for interviews and the place I wanted to buy my suit from was rather nice (started about $300 back in the early 2000's) and when I went there, before even asking me questions they told me that they had no suits in my price range, and directed me to a low cost department store to buy one (I was looking to spend in the $300-400 range so I could have afforded their cheaper stuff). I as a typical 22 year old I had some pretty heated words with the salesmen and left feeling really embarrassed.
 

IrishJayhawk

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A letter from 30 law professors discussing the law.

http://web.law.columbia.edu/sites/d...ity/law_professors_letter_on_indiana_rfra.pdf

In conclusion, each signatory to this letter recognizes the important place that rights to
religious liberty hold in the set of rights we regard as fundamental in the U.S. legal system. Yet,
rather than advancing reasonable concerns about religious freedom, the proposed Religious
Freedom Restoration Act is more a solution in search of a problem, or worse, if passed will
create confusion, conflict, and a wave of litigation that will threaten the clarity of religious
liberty rights in Indiana while undermining the state’s ability to enforce other compelling
interests.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Here's an older (yet newly relevant) article from The Week's Michael Brendan Dougherty titled "Religious liberty should be a liberal value, too":

The controversy around the concept of religious liberty — whether in the form of birth control mandates resulting from the Affordable Care Act, or nondiscrimination lawsuits related to same-sex marriage — can seem like a straightforward conflict between retrograde religion and the progressive state.

But in truth the battle over religious liberty is a conflict within liberalism itself. In one corner are the liberal values of pluralism and tolerance. In the other are the liberal projects of egalitarianism and administrative efficiency. The quick and decisive defeat of Arizona's attempt to clarify its state version of the 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) is evidence that our increasingly monocultural elite class is inclined to resolve these conflicts in favor of its egalitarian goals. But, it should tread carefully.

The pluralism of the United States has allowed diverse religious charities, health-care institutions, schools, and universities to flourish. These institutions define their own priorities and their own missions. Yeshivas do not teach the New Testament. Catholic universities make their chapels available for weddings of students whose marriages will be conducted according to the faith, and only those marriages. Those priorities may seem obvious and unimportant to you, the very definition of parochial.

But when the administrative state barges in, this pluralism can take on far greater implications. The contraception mandate, for example, is premised on several ideas that are dear to the current egalitarian projects of liberalism. In particular, that artificial birth control is an essential component of ensuring a woman's autonomy. Therefore it ought to be a basic feature of every health-care plan, and furthermore it ought to be "free" for the end user, to eliminate any disincentives for using it.

The Catholic Church opposes any form of artificial contraception or manufactured sterility. For Catholics in health care, that means fertility and virility are not conditions that should be managed at will, but signs of health. To assist someone in artificially suppressing them is to assist them in a form of self-harm, even if they want it.

Even if we instituted a single-payer health-care system, the conflict would simply move to a higher and more dramatic level: Why does a government that defines health care one way act in partnership (through subsidies and reimbursements) with hospitals that define it in another way?

Faced with the dilemma, partisans of the egalitarian project define pluralism down. The free exercise of religion is reduced to "freedom of worship." You're allowed to believe whatever you want, but when you act in any way that touches public life, you must act according to the ideology of the state. This is a convenient way of defining freedom of conscience and free exercise of religion down to the very last things the liberal state would care to interfere in: what happens once a week at churches and what thoughts you may be thinking. In other words, diversity is okay so long as it remains behind closed doors and in your head. Why even bother with a First Amendment if religion is such a trivial phenomenon?

The bipartisan consensus that passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act sought to avoid these conflicts by legally affirming America's historic tolerance of religious dissent and diversity. It demanded that if the government were to burden the conscience of religious believers, it must show evidence of a compelling interest and a lack of alternatives for achieving its goal.

But when the issue changed from the religious use of peyote to same-sex marriage, the debate ran much hotter because the principles of pluralism and egalitarianism were put into a conflict that could prove mortal to one or the other.

From the perspective of egalitarians, to let wedding vendors refuse business from gay and lesbian clients puts into question the whole principle of nondiscrimination, one that was used righteously in defeating an entire system of racial apartheid in the American South. This was a system that excluded blacks from entire arenas of commercial and social life, through law and terrorism. What good is the liberal state if it can't punish bigotry anymore? To the secular, religious scruples seem arbitrary. Limiting the reach of the law based on them seems to invite a kind of anarchy. The unscrupulous could make up new religious beliefs, thereby creating new exemptions and liberties, to hurt others.

For the pluralists, the refusal of a small minority of vendors to participate in particular wedding ceremonies — whether same-sex marriages or second marriages — is no different from other uncontroversial forms of discrimination. Perhaps the local print shop is happy to print a client's business card, but not his religious tracts. Or a barber wants to refuse service to a client over his politics. Unlike in the segregation-era South, the offended clients have other, more eager options in the market, and have no need to use the law to obtain what they sought in that market.

There may yet be legislative compromises that satisfy the demands of both sets of values. Perhaps RFRA-style laws can be worded to assure egalitarians that religious objections are limited to certain events and actions, and not directed at entire classes of fellow citizens. And health-care mandates can be recrafted to use public institutions, rather than religious ones, as the guarantor of egalitarian goals.

But let me enter a suggestion as a conclusion. Liberalism should have the confidence to tolerate institutions, even large ones, that have competing and contrary missions to those of the state. The very liberality of the managerial state is guaranteed by real diversity, not just of skin color and sexual preference, but of religion and values, too.

Real pluralism preserves the possibility of critique emerging within a liberal state. The interplay of individuals and diverse institutions encourages liberality and understanding at the ground level of citizenship — the gratitude for people very different from you who are still very solicitous of your needs. Whereas the strict ideological hen-pecking of the state creates a kind of existential dread, and intensifies the panic of the culture war — the fear that a loss on principle in one case is the loss of all power and recourse in the future. Legislators and jurists would do best to retain these two essential liberal values, by finding solutions that deftly avoid setting them against each other.

And here's a column from the NYT's Ross Douthat titled "Questions for Indiana's Critics":

I know that I should say something about the backlash and debate over Indiana’s version of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, but it’s been hard to come up with something that I didn’t already say in my column when it was Arizona’s variation on the same law, vetoed under pressure, that was in the news. That column made the case that the only remaining question in the same-sex marriage “debate” was what kind of space, if any, an ascendant cultural liberalism would leave to Americans with traditional views on what constitutes a marriage; that the correlation of forces (corporate now as well as cultural and legal) was such that the choice of exactly how far to push and how much pluralism to permit would be almost entirely in the hands of liberals and supporters of same-sex marriage. That’s still basically how it looks to me today: Elements of the Indiana debate have been particularly … striking, but none of it has been particularly surprising given how this played out in Arizona.

But it occurs to me one thing that might be helpful for everyone involved in these arguments is to look ahead and try to clarify, even a little bit, exactly how the landscape of debate is likely to evolve. One of the difficulties in this discussion, from a conservative perspective, is that the definition of “common sense” and “compromise” on these issues has shifted so rapidly in such a short time: Positions taken by, say, the president of the United States and most Democratic politicians a few short years ago are now deemed the purest atavism, the definition of bigotry gets more and more elastic, and developments that social liberals would have described as right-wing scare stories in 2002 or so are now treated as just the most natural extensions of basic American principles. (Rod Dreher calls this the “law of merited impossibility,” in which various follow-on effects of same-sex marriage are dismissed as impossible until they happen, at which point it’s explained that of course they were absolutely necessary.) Of course all of this is happening because underlying attitudes have changed rapidly, and what’s politically and socially possible is changing with them; that’s all understandable. But the pace involved is unusual, and its rapidity makes it very easy to imagine that scenarios that aren’t officially on the table right now will become plausible very, very soon.

Let’s just take the issue at stake in the Indiana/religious liberty debate. Beneath all of the to-and-fro-ing over what the law actually says, whether it differs from other statutes like it, and so on, lies a basic reality that both sides can concede. The support for new state RFRAs from religious conservative has been occasioned by a handful of cases in which people in the wedding industry (photographers, florists, etc.) have been sued or fined or otherwise sanctioned for trying to decline to provide their services for a same-sex ceremony. The current conservative position (though one that the Republican Party’s business wing is eager to abjure) is that a religious exemption of some sort is a reasonable compromise between gay rights and freedom of religion/freedom of association; the current liberal position (with a few exceptions) is that granting private businesses the right to decline involvement in same-sex nuptials is the moral and legal equivalent of allowing businesses to turn away African-Americans from lunch counters.

As I’ve said before, I don’t think the issues in the wedding industry deserve the label “persecution” that some religious conservatives have slapped on them, and I don’t think the view taken by these florists/bakers/photographers is necessarily mandated by orthodox Christian belief. But it is my very strong impression that if a religious conservative (or anyone on the right) had said, back in 2004 or even into President Obama’s first term, that they accepted that marriage should be redefined nationwide to include same-sex couples, that they further accepted that this would happen swiftly through the courts rather than state-by-state and legislatively, and that all they asked of liberals was that this redefinition proceed in a way that allowed people like Barronelle Stutzman some wiggle room about whether their businesses or facilities had to be involved in the wedding ceremonies themselves — with the mechanism for opting out being something like the (then-still-bipartisan) RFRA model – this would have been treated as a very reasonable compromise proposal by a lot of people on the center-left, gay as well as straight. I cannot prove this absolutely, and I concede that there are lots of people on the left who wouldn’t have liked the deal. But the world of liberal opinion is a pretty familiar one to me, the world of the past isn’t that far past, and I think my assessment is basically correct.

Today, though, as I said above, I think the consensus center-left position has basically shifted toward the argument offered by Garrett Epps for The Atlantic: It doesn’t matter if Stutzman or any other wedding vendor is a nice person with sincere religious beliefs, and it doesn’t matter if she or they would provide her services to gay clients in any other context; her religious anxiety about decorating a wedding chapel for a same-sex couple is no different from the objection to integration of a Southern store-owner whose preacher taught him the races should be separate, and needs to be dismissed with extreme prejudice lest anti-gay discrimination flourish and spread.

And whether you find this view, this analogy, persuasive or you don’t, it has a lot of possible further implications. Because in the annals of American history, both Jim Crow and the means we used to destroy it are, well, legally and culturally extraordinary. So if our current situation with same-sex marriage and religious conservatives really is analogous, there is no obvious reason why we’ve reached any kind stopping point once the florists and bakers have been appropriately fined or closed down.

Hence the following seven questions about future steps, which I’ll pose specifically to Epps and generally to the Indiana law’s many liberal critics. Some are rooted in real-life examples and possibilities; some are much more (I think) unlikely. But I’m still quite interested in whether people would support them if they were to become plausible options a little ways down the road.

1) Should religious colleges whose rules or honor codes or covenants explicitly ask students and/or teachers to refrain from sex outside of heterosexual wedlock eventually lose their accreditation unless they change the policy to accommodate gay relationships? At the very least, should they lose their tax-exempt status, as Bob Jones University did over its ban on interracial dating?

2) What about the status of religious colleges and schools or non-profits that don’t have such official rules about student or teacher conduct, but nonetheless somehow instantiate or at least nod to a traditional view of marriage at some level — in the content of their curricula, the design of their benefit package, the rules for their wedding venues, their denominational affiliation? Should their tax-exempt status be reconsidered? Absent a change in their respective faith’s stance on homosexuality, for instance, should Catholic high schools or Classical Christian academies or Orthodox Jewish schools be eligible for 501(c)3 status at all?

3) Have the various colleges and universities that have done so been correct to withdraw recognition from religious student groups that require their leaders to be chaste until (heterosexual) marriage? Should all of secular higher education take the same approach to religious conservatives? And then further, irrespective of leadership policies, do religious bodies that publicly endorse a traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic view of sexual ethics deserve a place on secular campuses at all? Should the Harvard chaplaincy, for instance, admit ministers to its ranks whose churches or faiths do not allow them to perform same-sex marriages? Should the chaplaincy of a public university?

4.) In the longer term, is there a place for anyone associated with the traditional Judeo-Christian-Islamic view of sexuality in our society’s elite level institutions? Was Mozilla correct in its handling of the Brendan Eich case? Is California correct to forbid its judges from participating in the Boy Scouts? What are the implications for other institutions? To return to the academic example: Should Princeton find a way to strip Robert George of his tenure over his public stances and activities? Would a public university be justified in denying tenure to a Orthodox Jewish religious studies professor who had stated support for Orthodox Judaism’s views on marriage?

5) Should the state continue to recognize marriages performed by ministers, priests, rabbis, etc. who do not marry same-sex couples? Or should couples who marry before such a minister also be required to repeat the ceremony in front of a civil official who does not discriminate?

6) Should churches that decline to bless same-sex unions have their tax-exempt status withdrawn? Note that I’m not asking if it would be politically or constitutionally possible: If it were possible, should it be done?

7) In the light of contemporary debates about religious parenting and gay or transgender teenagers, should Wisconsin v. Yoder be revisited? What about Pierce v.Society of the Sisters of the Holy Names of Jesus and Mary?

No doubt others could add more questions to the list, but that seems like decent range to me. Again, I’m genuinely interested in the answers, and not just for the sake of putting people on the record or playing some kind of “follow the logic” game. At the very least, I think liberals would benefit from recognizing that the current thinking of religious conservatives, in the RFRA debate and elsewhere, is shaped not only by these kind of specific fears but by a near-total uncertainty about what happens after this, and after that, and so on. And given how the ground has shifted recently, I think there would be real benefits for both sides to having more people on the left and center-left taking explicit positions on where we might and ought to go from here.

Genuinely curious to know how some of my debate partners here would answer Douthat's questions.

Here's First Things' Elizabeth Scalia with an article titled "Jesus Might Bake the Cake but Would He Perform the Nuptials?":

Perhaps it is the natural result of social evolution but as a nation, our understanding of what the word “tolerance” means or how it is to be lived has shifted within our moral GPS. We have been detoured away from the broad two-way street called Live and Let Live and are now traveling a narrower road that goes only one way, and offers few exits. It’s called the My-Way Highway.

Same-sex marriage has become a judicial juggernaut; seventeen states now recognize same-sex unions, with couples in Idaho and Kentucky currently petitioning the courts to extend that number. This has prompted legislatures in Kansas, Arizona, and other states to advance unwieldy bills that seek to balance a newly-acquired right to marriage against the rights of others to follow their religious or moral consciences.

The question is no longer whether couples may marry, but whether a baker may refuse to sell them a wedding cake on the strength of his religious or moral conscience, without risking a lawsuit.

Anyone can walk into a kosher or halal butcher’s shop and buy a chicken, but if asked to cater a party with bacon burgers, the butcher will refuse. Should that invite a lawsuit? People understand that you don’t bother religious butchers with requests they cannot honor. Should we be permitted to demand services of a cameraman, or a florist or baker that tread upon their religious sensibilities?

It’s too bad that laws and courts must become involved with what used to be the simplest of lessons: Not everyone thinks the same way, but everyone is entitled to their opinions; if that kid won’t play with you—or that baker will not make your cake—someone else will, so just kiss them up to God, and move on. Or, as Jesus told his apostles when he sent them off to preach the good news, “Whatever place does not welcome you or listen to you, leave there and shake the dust off your feet, in testimony against them.”

The right to honor one’s individual conscience is no small thing to be shrugged off, or misconstrued as an excuse for ignorant behavior in the face of prevailing law. Who among us would blame a launderer (of any creed or background) for refusing to clean the sheets of a KKK member? Would anyone suggest that Rosa Parks had no business thinking for herself when a bus driver told her to get up from her seat?

People need to weigh their passionate feelings with careful thought before they chip away at the inviolability of individual conscience, and those who believe it can be legislated against should beware of hypocrisy; they are often the same people who argue that when it comes to abortion, a woman’s own mind—her individual conscience and reason—outweighs what used to be called “conventional morality.”

Writing in USA Today, last week, Fox News contributor Kirsten Powers compared what some call the “anti-gay marriage” bills to “homosexual Jim Crow laws.” That may be a rhetorical bridge too far. More worth consideration is her claim that “Whether Christians have the legal right to discriminate should be a moot point because Christianity doesn’t prohibit serving a gay couple getting married. Jesus calls his followers to be servants to all. Nor does the Bible call service to another an affirmation.”

Well, yes and no. While Jesus socialized with those the temple priests would condemn, and healed the “unclean” lepers, he used those opportunities to teach about the love of God and the wideness of God’s mercy. A soul opened to God’s love begins to love God in return, and—for the sake of that love, and in honor of that mercy—eventually conforms life and manner to God’s will.

Jesus’ service, then, was a means to gentle evangelization and that is perhaps something these Christian businessmen and women should consider, even if it seems counterintuitive to the character of evangelization, as Americans understand it.

Powers ends her piece writing, “Maybe they should just ask themselves, ‘What would Jesus do?’ I think he’d bake the cake.”

Perhaps he might; it seems to me that baking a cake for a same-sex wedding, even if one does not agree with the concept, may well come under the heading of walking along a road for two miles with someone who “presses you into service” for one.

But perhaps he wouldn’t; all we can do is make our best guesses. True, if the road is heading toward that nebulous region of “tolerance” that has become so difficult to locate in American society, we should all be willing to walk a ways with each other, but eventually we will reach departure points that can and should be respected. Many can travel as far as Powers’ “he’d bake the cake” exit, but then must get off, before the road reaches “Jesus would officiate at a same-sex wedding.” That is the logical next stop, and a place we simply cannot get to, if we are following Jesus’ map.

Jesus is the source of articulated doctrine on both marriage and divorce. The world may disagree—it clearly stopped listening about divorce some decades ago—but the churches are and will remain bound to his teachings.

Meanwhile, if we lose the ability to respect that people can only go as far as their consciences will allow, we risk becoming mired in a muck of illusion, imagining hate where none exists, equating compelled behavior with authentic love, and losing sight of the fact that traveling together sometimes means that we walk the extra mile on one challenging road, and they walk it on the next. Everyone spares a bit of shoe-leather for the sake of the other. This is how love travels.

Jesus observed the law and fulfilled the law. He did not throw the law away, for the sake of love. For the sake of love, he threw himself away. That’s another counterintuitive lesson he gave to us, as we all proceed together, slouching toward “tolerance” and carrying our consciences along the way.

And, as a concession to my opponents, here's another post by Elizabeth Scalia regarding discrimination by Christians:

The thing is, if you are refusing to bake a cake for a same sex wedding, and you can demonstrate that you routinely refuse service to people whose lives singe your conscience, you’ll win any case brought before you. You won’t likely have enough customers to pay your bills, but no one would be able to convincingly charge you as a bigot or a hater, because your Christian conscience clearly does not discriminate between sinners.

If, however, you are routinely baking cakes for shacked-up couples, doing the flowers for “divorce parties” and irregular remarriages, and snapping photos for unwed mothers, but drawing the line at same sex weddings, then — as Ricky Ricardo said — “you have some ‘splainin’ to do.” Specifically, how do you argue that the goods and services you provide for other sinners do not demonstrate participation or advocacy of their behaviors, but baking up three tiers for two men somehow does?

Can you have it both ways? I suggest that consistency matters. Either no one living a life out of comportment with scripture gets a cake, because cake means you encourage their sin, or everyone gets a cake, because cake is just damn cake, and makes no statement at all.

You Christian bakers, florists and photographers need to decide whether you are ready to be consistent in what constitutes a participation in sin, or you need to just bake the damn cake, put the damn flowers in a vase or snap the damn picture, already, and move on to the next customer.

That's a fair criticism.
 

IrishinSyria

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Certain European companies who make key components for the lethal injection drug recently started refusing to sell to the US because they weren't comfortable being complicit in our death penalty. Should the US be able to compel them to sell to us by bringing a suit against them in the WTO? I don't think so, but your argument is that as soon as one engages in commerce, all religious and ideological baggage must be checked at the door. That's simply not how humans operate.

Whiskey, I appreciate a lot of your posting in this thread, but I just want to point out that you're attacking the same straw man as Prothero did with this example. There's no balancing of rights problem with refusing to sell a chemical because of objections to the death penalty. No individual interests are harmed when a European company refuses to sell a chemical to an American state, knowing that the state intends to use it in executions.

Conversely, whatever you think of gay marriage, it is a legal right in Indiana. A baker who makes wedding cakes but doesn't want to make cakes for gays is discriminating based on the identity of his clients, not on the projected use of the cake.

A baker is under no obligation to sell wedding cakes, but once they're on offer, they shouldn't be allowed to refuse service because the names on the cake say John and Gary instead of Jill and Gary. To distinguish between gay wedding cakes and straight wedding cakes is to distinguish solely on the individuals requesting the cake, which is discriminatory.

re: the Scalia articles, while interesting, I think they highlight the problem with these laws. Under absolutely no circumstances should the courts or any other arm of the government be evaluating "what would Jesus have done" or doing any other sort of detour into theology. If we accept that we don't want courts evaluating the correctness of professed religious beliefs, then we're faced with essentially two choices. We either prioritize any religious claim over the rights of another or we accept none. Otherwise, you're faced with all sorts of line drawing problems. If it's alright for a baker to refuse to bake a cake for a gay wedding, is it ok for a jewish baker to refuse to bake a cake for a Christian wedding? A (1970s) mormon baker to refuse to bake a cake for a black wedding. A Bob Jones U baker to refuse to bake a cake for an interracial wedding? I don't think we want our courts trying to draw those lines.
 
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NDgradstudent

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Note that neither Obama, who voted for Illinois' RFRA, nor Chuck Schumer, who co-sponsored the federal RFRA, have been able to explain how Indiana's version is different.
Indiana Governor: This Is the Same Religious Freedom Law Obama Voted for in Illinois | The Weekly Standard

Nor is this law significantly different from the federal version, as some people have claimed. For a discussion, see this:
Comparing the Federal RFRA and the Indiana RFRA | Josh Blackman's Blog

This is all dishonest posturing and hysteria.
 
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NDgradstudent

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Conversely, whatever you think of gay marriage, it is a legal right in Indiana. A baker who makes wedding cakes but doesn't want to make cakes for gays is discriminating based on the identity of his clients, not on the projected use of the cake.

A baker is under no obligation to sell wedding cakes, but once they're on offer, they shouldn't be allowed to refuse service because the names on the cake say John and Gary instead of Jill and Gary. To distinguish between gay wedding cakes and straight wedding cakes is to distinguish solely on the individuals requesting the cake, which is discriminatory.

So a Jewish baker is under an obligation to produce a cake for the birthday of the President of the local Nazi party?
 

IrishinSyria

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So a Jewish baker is under an obligation to produce a cake for the birthday of the President of the local Nazi party?

Basically, yes. if the Jewish baker routinely makes cakes that say "Happy Birthday (insert name here)" he should not be able to discriminate based on the person's political beliefs. If this were Germany and espousing Nazi beliefs was illegal, that would be a different question.

On the other hand, if they wanted a cake in the shape of a swastika, it seems equally obvious that the Jewish baker would not have to bake it, as that is a product he does not usually make. Same if the baker is Kosher and they want the cake to be dairy and shellfish or something.

The toughest question would be if they wanted the cake to say "Heil Hitler" or something like that.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Whiskey, I appreciate a lot of your posting in this thread, but I just want to point out that you're attacking the same straw man as Prothero did with this example. There's no balancing of rights problem with refusing to sell a chemical because of objections to the death penalty. No individual interests are harmed when a European company refuses to sell a chemical to an American state, knowing that the state intends to use it in executions.

How is it a strawman? Company A is refusing to sell to Client B because of the latter's intended use for the former's wares. I picked that example because the Progressives in this thread presumably are anti-death penalty, and would uphold the European company's right to discriminate between its customers in this way. Yet you're unwilling to extend the same courtesy to those with sincere religious convictions.

Conversely, whatever you think of gay marriage, it is a legal right in Indiana. A baker who makes wedding cakes but doesn't want to make cakes for gays is discriminating based on the identity of his clients, not on the projected use of the cake.

From the Dougherty article linked above:

For the pluralists, the refusal of a small minority of vendors to participate in particular wedding ceremonies — whether same-sex marriages or second marriages — is no different from other uncontroversial forms of discrimination. Perhaps the local print shop is happy to print a client's business card, but not his religious tracts. Or a barber wants to refuse service to a client over his politics. Unlike in the segregation-era South, the offended clients have other, more eager options in the market, and have no need to use the law to obtain what they sought in that market.

People discriminate all the time. The question is whether this rises to the level of DISCRIMINATION, such that the extraordinary legal remedies of the CRA ought to be invoked. As I argued earlier, there's no comparison between what the LGBT community faces today and what blacks faced under Jim Crow. Conversely, I'd argue that the long line of CEOs, politicians and celebrities who jumped on the outrage train here without bothering to explain how this law differs from the bi-partisan and uncontroversial RFRA indicates that the LGBT has the bully pulpit.

A baker is under no obligation to sell wedding cakes, but once they're on offer, they shouldn't be allowed to refuse service because the names on the cake say John and Gary instead of Jill and Gary. To distinguish between gay wedding cakes and straight wedding cakes is to distinguish solely on the individuals requesting the cake, which is discriminatory.

I agree that this scenario is unavoidably discriminatory. I disagree that the consequences of such discrimination are so invidious that we need to abolish religion from the public square to avoid it.
 
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pkt77242

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Note that neither Obama, who voted for Illinois' RFRA, nor Chuck Schumer, who co-sponsored the federal RFRA, have been able to explain how Indiana's version is different.
Indiana Governor: This Is the Same Religious Freedom Law Obama Voted for in Illinois | The Weekly Standard

Nor is this law significantly different from the federal version, as some people have claimed. For a discussion, see this:
Comparing the Federal RFRA and the Indiana RFRA | Josh Blackman's Blog

This is all dishonest posturing and hysteria.

Sigh. This has already been covered many times. The Indiana Law covers businesses as well as Individuals while the Federal Law and 18 of the 19 State RFRA only cover individuals.
 

IrishinSyria

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For the pluralists, the refusal of a small minority of vendors to participate in particular wedding ceremonies — whether same-sex marriages or second marriages — is no different from other uncontroversial forms of discrimination. Perhaps the local print shop is happy to print a client's business card, but not his religious tracts. Or a barber wants to refuse service to a client over his politics. Unlike in the segregation-era South, the offended clients have other, more eager options in the market, and have no need to use the law to obtain what they sought in that market.

This explanation is unsatisfactory to me, because it is heavily dependent on the specific context of present day America. I mean, you could use the same argument to argue that all of the protection afforded by the Civil Rights Act is unnecessary and therefore should be dropped. Things are better for blacks in the US today than in the Jim Crow south. There would be huge social stigmas against any business that adopted a "whites only" policy, even if there was no federal and state law in place. Yet the law remains, and should remain, because there is no guarantee that things will always be this way.

The same thing applies towards gay rights. In the last 10 years or so, there's been an incredible movement towards acceptance of homosexuality in the US. But it was not that long ago where it was potentially dangerous for a man to come out of the closet. The vast majority of bakeries in 1960s America would likely have refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, if such things were allowed at the time. Just because a law doesn't seem necessary today, doesn't mean that the principles underpinning it are not valid.
 

Whiskeyjack

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This explanation is unsatisfactory to me, because it is heavily dependent on the specific context of present day America. I mean, you could use the same argument to argue that all of the protection afforded by the Civil Rights Act is unnecessary and therefore should be dropped. Things are better for blacks in the US today than in the Jim Crow south. There would be huge social stigmas against any business that adopted a "whites only" policy, even if there was no federal and state law in place. Yet the law remains, and should remain, because there is no guarantee that things will always be this way.

The same thing applies towards gay rights. In the last 10 years or so, there's been an incredible movement towards acceptance of homosexuality in the US. But it was not that long ago where it was potentially dangerous for a man to come out of the closet. The vast majority of bakeries in 1960s America would likely have refused to bake a cake for a gay wedding, if such things were allowed at the time. Just because a law doesn't seem necessary today, doesn't mean that the principles underpinning it are not valid.

I never suggested that we repeal the CRA, but it's important to note that Jim Crow was an extraordinary social evil which required an extraordinary legal remedy. Invoking that same extreme legal remedy every time there's an opportunity to advance an egalitarian principal will result in injustice just as surely as Presidents who cite emergency war power authorizations to justify questionably legal military actions long after the emergency has passed. The CRA is not an appropriate remedy here.

Are you comfortable with the implications of making sexual orientation a protected class? Setting aside the difficult issue of enshrining a subjective preference (which manifests itself in a huge variety of behaviors) as a "class", that will legally classify every orthodox Christian, Jew and Muslim as a bigot.
 
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kmoose

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I remember a story from last year that a place, maybe in Oregon, refused service to two uniformed cops.

A Portland coffee shop, yes:


Sound Off Friday: Portland coffee shop refuses service to cops. Disgusting or within their rights? | News - KXLY.com

Not just two uniformed cops, they won't serve ANY cops. In fact, here is another article about how the owner of the shop called 911 about a guy overdosing on heroin in the bathroom, and he told the dispatcher not to send any cops, because they would not be allowed inside.

Co-owner of restaurant tells 911 not to send police | KATU Investigators | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon
 

pkt77242

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I never suggested that we repeal the CRA, but it's important to note that Jim Crow was an extraordinary social evil which required an extraordinary legal remedy. Invoking that same extreme legal remedy every time there's an opportunity to advance an egalitarian principal will result in injustice just as surely as Presidents who cite emergency war power authorizations to justify questionably legal military actions long after the emergency has passed. The CRA is not an appropriate remedy here.

Are you comfortable with the implications of making sexual orientation a protected class? Setting aside the difficult issue of enshrining a subjective preference (which manifests itself in a huge variety of behaviors) as a "class", that will legally classify every orthodox Christian, Jew and Muslim as a bigot.

can you expound on what you mean by the bold?
 

IrishinSyria

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I never suggested that we repeal the CRA, but it's important to note that Jim Crow was an extraordinary social evil which required an extraordinary legal remedy. Invoking that same extreme legal remedy every time there's an opportunity to advance an egalitarian principal will result in injustice just as surely as Presidents who cite emergency war power authorizations to justify questionably legal military actions long after the emergency has passed. The CRA is not an appropriate remedy here.

Are you comfortable with the implications of making sexual orientation a protected class? Setting aside the difficult issue of enshrining a subjective preference (which manifests itself in a huge variety of behaviors) as a "class", that will legally classify every orthodox Christian, Jew and Muslim as a bigot.

I didn't mean to imply that you proposed revoking the CRA, just wanted to point out that the logic of that particular argument (plenty of other bakers..) would seem to lead to that conclusion.

If by protected class, you mean subject to the protections of the Civil Rights Act (which, while passed mainly to protect blacks being discriminated against in Jim Crow South, but also provided protection for a number of other groups), then yes, I am in favor of extending those protections to sexual preference. I don't think anyone should be sent to a different school because they're gay, prevented from playing a sport because they're gay, refused service at a restaurant because they're gay, prevented from voting because they're gay, discriminated against in employment because they're gay, or denied any of the other protections that the CRA provides.

I don't think that providing those protections would "legally classify every orthodox Christian, Jew, and Muslim" as a bigot. I'm not aware of any mandate in the CRA that forces people to feel a certain way about other people.
 

Whiskeyjack

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can you expound on what you mean by the bold?

Sexual orientation is not something that can be objectively verified. None of the other protected classes suffer from that problem. Religion is somewhat similar, in that it often isn't immediately apparent what faith one subscribes to, but even then the doctrines of various Churches are easily referenced. When the IRS fires a Sikh woman for wearing her ritual dagger to work, the courts are able to independently verify whether that constitutes religious discrimination.

What does that look in cases based on sexual orientation?
 

IrishinSyria

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A Portland coffee shop, yes:


Sound Off Friday: Portland coffee shop refuses service to cops. Disgusting or within their rights? | News - KXLY.com

Not just two uniformed cops, they won't serve ANY cops. In fact, here is another article about how the owner of the shop called 911 about a guy overdosing on heroin in the bathroom, and he told the dispatcher not to send any cops, because they would not be allowed inside.

Co-owner of restaurant tells 911 not to send police | KATU Investigators | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon

While I disagree with the coffee shop owner here, it seems like he is on solid constitutional ground. The plain view doctrine essentially means you forfeit your protection from warrantless searches when you grant a cop access to your private property.
 

IrishinSyria

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Sexual orientation is not something that can be objectively verified. None of the other protected classes suffer from that problem. Religion is somewhat similar, in that it often isn't immediately apparent what faith one subscribes to, but even then the doctrines of various Churches are easily referenced. When the IRS fires a Sikh woman for wearing her ritual dagger to work, the courts are able to independently verify whether that constitutes religious discrimination.

What does that look in cases based on sexual orientation?

I think a dude being married to a dude is the big one.

But even so, it's not really all that easy to verify what is required by religion. The fact that virtually every religion out there has schisms and multiple sects and orthodoxies is proof that reasonable people can violently disagree on what is required by a religion.

That's why the distinction between protection of individuals and protection of companies is so critical. If an individual is denied service based on their religion, you don't have to embark on a long fact-finding journey to determine whether their religious beliefs are correct or reasonable or even sincerely held. On the other hand, when a business denies someone a service because of the owner's beliefs, that sort of judgment seems necessary. Otherwise, the rule against discrimination is no rule at all, as anyone can claim that their particular religious beliefs mean they cannot serve (insert group here).
 

Whiskeyjack

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I don't think that providing those protections would "legally classify every orthodox Christian, Jew, and Muslim" as a bigot. I'm not aware of any mandate in the CRA that forces people to feel a certain way about other people.

Let's say an orthodox Catholic couple is looking for an in-home caretaker for their children. They interview several candidates, including one lesbian, but decide to hire someone else over her because a majority of the LGBT community holds political, ideological and theological views that are hostile to their own.

If sexual orientation becomes a protected class, that caretaker could sue the orthodox Catholic couple for violating the CRA. There are, of course, horror stories going the other way as well, wherein a very capable and respectful gay person is fired for no apparent reason, and has no legal recourse because sexual orientation isn't a protected class.

My point is that the CRA is a blunt instrument, and adding classes to it which obviously conflict (Religion and Sexual Orientation) is going to create a ton of problems. I'd support it if it came with strong Right of Conscience exemptions, but very few on the left are willing to compromise on this issue.
 

Whiskeyjack

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That's why the distinction between protection of individuals and protection of companies is so critical. If an individual is denied service based on their religion, you don't have to embark on a long fact-finding journey to determine whether their religious beliefs are correct or reasonable or even sincerely held. On the other hand, when a business denies someone a service because of the owner's beliefs, that sort of judgment seems necessary. Otherwise, the rule against discrimination is no rule at all, as anyone can claim that their particular religious beliefs mean they cannot serve (insert group here).

As wizards pointed out several pages ago, the vast majority of American LLCs are taxed as sole proprietorships. So the distinction between individual and corporation is not nearly as clear as you're making it seem.

This ultimately comes down to two groups having irreconcilable visions of the Good. We can either negotiate some sort of pluralistic compromise, or we can dig in for increasingly divise culture wars.
 

IrishinSyria

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Let's say an orthodox Catholic couple is looking for an in-home caretaker for their children. They interview several candidates, including one lesbian, but decide to hire someone else over her because a majority of the LGBT community holds political, ideological and theological views that are hostile to their own.

If sexual orientation becomes a protected class, that caretaker could sue the orthodox Catholic couple for violating the CRA. There are, of course, horror stories going the other way as well, wherein a very capable and respectful gay person is fired for no apparent reason, and has no legal recourse because sexual orientation isn't a protected class.

My point is that the CRA is a blunt instrument, and adding classes to it which obviously conflict (Religion and Sexual Orientation) is going to create a ton of problems. I'd support it if it came with strong Right of Conscience exemptions, but very few on the left are willing to compromise on this issue.

First of all, I think your example is beyond the reach of the CRA. The act only applies to employers "who ha[ve] fifteen (15) or more employees for each working day in each of twenty or more calendar weeks in the current or preceding calendar year" (42 U.S.C. § 2000e(b)). I bring this up not to play "gotchya" but simply because I think it's important to point out that we are not talking about small operations here. Even if it did reach your hypothetical couple though, the couple would have to say, "we are not hiring you because you're a lesbian" for the law suit to have a chance.

That being said, I will concede everything else to you if you can point me to an article that describes (or describe yourself) a reasonable limit on the "right of conscience" objections. To make it easy, let's assume those objections are only allowed on religious grounds. How would a court distinguish a principled objection from a veiled excuse for discrimination?
 
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As wizards pointed out several pages ago, the vast majority of American LLCs are taxed as sole proprietorships. So the distinction between individual and corporation is not nearly as clear as you're making it seem.

This ultimately comes down to two groups having irreconcilable visions of the Good. We can either negotiate some sort of pluralistic compromise, or we can dig in for increasingly divise culture wars.

Just to add, I will stand by my LLC comment. While its effects wouldn't be complete, it would apply to any and all large corporations, and their ability to discriminate is obviously greater than a one-man cornerstore.
 
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