Politics

[Polish Leppy 22]

Poll: 77%–Including 66% of Hispanics–Want Illegals Sent Back

"According to a YouGov/Economist poll, 77% of Americans – including 66% of Hispanics, 64% of blacks, 92% of Republicans, 80% of independents, and 67% of Democrats – want the illegal immigrants returned in some capacity."

 

[EddytoNow]

I agreed that they were fleeing violence, but poverty and the hope for amnesty in the US is a factor. In terms of US immigration law they are not refugees. Refugees are people being oppressed by their government, whether it's race, religion, ethnicity, political beliefs (Cuba) etc. That's not what's happening here. I can copy and paste the law (not my opinion) for you again if that's what you need.

As I've noted before, kids in LA, Chicago (murder capital of the US), and parts of NYC witness and are subjected to gang violence and drugs every single day. Where are they supposed to go?

The short answer is anywhere they want to in the United States. There is no border to cross and nothing illegal about leaving LA, Chicago, New York, Detroit or any other city. The difference between the Central American immigrants and our inner city youth is one of opportunity. There are plenty of safer areas in the United States in which to live and our own youth are free to seek an opportunity elsewhere in the USA. A teenager fleeing the violence of the inner city will not be rounded up and forced to return to the inner city. The youth of these Central American countries must leave their country to find a similar opportunity to improve their lot. There are no safe neighborhoods in their home country.

As long as we have a standard of living that exceeds that of other countries, we will be a destination for immigrants seeking an opportunity that does not exist in their homeland.

 

[BobD]

Let's compare 12% income tax and 1% property tax with someplace like Wisconsin with 2% property tax and 7% income tax with a focus on middle class folks.

Earn $50,000, live in $200,000 home.
- $6000 income tax, $2000 property tax in CA
- $3500 income tax, $4000 property tax in WI
$8000 versus $7500 total tax, not a big discrepancy

Earn $80,000, live in a $250,000 home
-$9600 income tax, $2500 property tax in CA
- $5600 income tax, $5000 property tax in WI
$12,100 versus $10,600, the gap widens quite a bit from the first example.

Now compare those same examples to North Carolina's 5.8% income tax and 1% property tax
Person A - $2900 income, $2000 property. $4900 total
Person B - $4640 income, $2500 property, $7140 total

Not half as much but a big enough difference to really be felt in the average family budget. On top of the fact you can by a lot more house here for the same dollar.

There's not really such thing as a 200 or 250k house in California . I'm just kidding but only kind of......it wouldn't be easy to find one.

California Home Prices and Home Values - Zillow


Median price is well over 400k

 

[Wild Bill]

The short answer is anywhere they want to in the United States. There is no border to cross and nothing illegal about leaving LA, Chicago, New York, Detroit or any other city. The difference between the Central American immigrants and our inner city youth is one of opportunity. There are plenty of safer areas in the United States in which to live and our own youth are free to seek an opportunity elsewhere in the USA. A teenager fleeing the violence of the inner city will not be rounded up and forced to return to the inner city. The youth of these Central American countries must leave their country to find a similar opportunity to improve their lot. There are no safe neighborhoods in their home country.

As long as we have a standard of living that exceeds that of other countries, we will be a destination for immigrants seeking an opportunity that does not exist in their homeland.

You think they'll enjoy a better standard of living here? How's that possible when they'll just end up unemployed, on welfare, and in the streets?

As to where do the parents in LA and Chicago send their children? Since the private sector sits on their wealth and offers no jobs and no hope for the children of the impoverished, the children will end up unemployed, on welfare, and in the streets. It's no surprise that the impoverished, both immigrant and citizen, seek a better life for their own children. It's a moral tragedy, that so few seem to care.

 

[Emcee77]

You think they'll enjoy a better standard of living here? How's that possible when they'll just end up unemployed, on welfare, and in the streets?

I don't really see the contradiction there. Even the life of a poor person here in the States may be many times better than the life of a poor person in some of the Latin American countries undocumented immigrants in this country tend to come from. At least in the States you are likely to have or be able to get access to the most basic services, like indoor plumbing.

 

[BobD]

We'll that does it, you guys were right California went belly up today and then a big hunk fell into the ocean.

Nah just kidding, it's 72 and sunny. I'm sitting here having lunch and looking out at the bay. It really sucks

 

[RDU Irish]

The short answer is anywhere they want to in the United States. There is no border to cross and nothing illegal about leaving LA, Chicago, New York, Detroit or any other city. The difference between the Central American immigrants and our inner city youth is one of opportunity. There are plenty of safer areas in the United States in which to live and our own youth are free to seek an opportunity elsewhere in the USA. A teenager fleeing the violence of the inner city will not be rounded up and forced to return to the inner city. The youth of these Central American countries must leave their country to find a similar opportunity to improve their lot. There are no safe neighborhoods in their home country.

As long as we have a standard of living that exceeds that of other countries, we will be a destination for immigrants seeking an opportunity that does not exist in their homeland.

Pretty sure all the 8 year olds stacked up on the border didn't put that much thought into it.

 

[ACamp1900]

There's not really such thing as a 200 or 250k house in California . I'm just kidding but only kind of......it wouldn't be easy to find one.

California Home Prices and Home Values - Zillow


Median price is well over 400k

Not on the beach or in the major urban centers... but,... I got my five BR, two bath, on an acre with a pool, all updated with granite and all that nice shiz for 175... no. really. I'm about an hour and 20 from downtown L.A.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

We'll that does it, you guys were right California went belly up today and then a big hunk fell into the ocean.

Nah just kidding, it's 72 and sunny. I'm sitting here having lunch and looking out at the bay. It really sucks

Sounds like a gorgeous day. People in Washington, FL, Philly, SC, NC and NH are doing the exact same thing at about half the cost.

 

[BobD]

Not on the beach or in the major urban centers... but,... I got my five BR, two bath, on an acre with a pool, all updated with granite and all that nice shiz for 175... no. really. I'm about an hour and 20 from downtown L.A.

175 down?

If your not kidding then that's awesome .

 

[ACamp1900]

Not kidding... already have nice equity in it and it's only been three years...

 

[woolybug25]

Not on the beach or in the major urban centers... but,... I got my five BR, two bath, on an acre with a pool, all updated with granite and all that nice shiz for 175... no. really. I'm about an hour and 20 from downtown L.A.

You live in one of those soul-less subdivisions dontcha?

 

[Jebediah Springfield]

175k for a house.

Im guessing the desert.

 

[ACamp1900]

You live in one of those soul-less subdivisions dontcha?

no. My parents live in one of those though. They live in one of the worst neighborhoods in all of California sadly.

175k for a house.

Im guessing the desert.

yes. We looked at Redlands and the same basic house with a pool and lots of land, all updated was about 200k more... so easy choice. It's just on the other side of the damn mountain.

 

[BobD]

You live in one of those soul-less subdivisions dontcha?

On an acre of soul-less-ness? That would be a huge lot for any subdivision .

 

[woolybug25]

On an acre of soul-less-ness? That would be a huge lot for any subdivision .

An acre is only a big lot if it's in the city, imo. You cant even shoot guns on that size lot. Nor set shit the proper amount of shizz on fire.

(I was referring to the subdivision part, not the lot size)

mericu

 

[woolybug25]

no. My parents live in one of those though. They live in one of the worst neighborhoods in all of California sadly.

How did you manage that? Was it a foreclosure?

 

[ACamp1900]

How did you manage that? Was it a foreclosure?

My parents?? idk, they bought their house, not I. They paid a lot more for thiers I believe (when the market was up and before the area they live in went completely to shit).

If you mean my house, it wasn't that far below standard market price for the area at that time.

 

[woolybug25]

My parents?? idk, they bought their house, not I. They paid a lot more for thiers I believe (when the market was up and before the area they live in went completely to shit).

If you mean my house, it wasn't that far below standard market price for the area at that time.

haha... no, YOUR house. How did you get your house for $175k? When was that market for SCally? Even in the desert?

 

[ACamp1900]

Our house was fully upgraded so it may have been an investor, I can honestly say we didn’t fully confirm that. The market in the desert isn’t too far from that now for a house like ours… we got a deal, but not an impossible one... here is a current search for our area.

Apple Valley CA Real Estate - 1119 Homes For Sale - Zillow

 

[woolybug25]

I honestly wouldn't have thought a nice house was available in that price range anywhere near LA. I guess you learn something new every day. I'm pretty sure that a nice 5bed, w/ pool on an acre is hard to come by in my lil' ol sw Michigan town for under $200k.

Good job, dude.

 

[Wild Bill]

I don't really see the contradiction there. Even the life of a poor person here in the States may be many times better than the life of a poor person in some of the Latin American countries undocumented immigrants in this country tend to come from. At least in the States you are likely to have or be able to get access to the most basic services, like indoor plumbing.

His initial post plainly states there are "no jobs and no hope for the children of the impoverished". In a subsequent post he writes "we will be a destination for immigrants seeking an opportunity". The contradiction is fairly obvious to me.

The larger point here is that his rant about the lack of opportunity here or hopelessness of the impoverished is simply not true. Immigrants come here to escape poverty. They see the opportunities and the upward mobility this country has to offer. I assure you, they're not coming here for the indoor plumbing or to live poor in this country rather than their own.

 

[UmphreakDomer]

I honestly wouldn't have thought a nice house was available in that price range anywhere near LA. I guess you learn something new every day. I'm pretty sure that a nice 5bed, w/ pool on an acre is hard to come by in my lil' ol sw Michigan town for under $200k.

Good job, dude.

my folks house in good ole misty acres was appraised at $175, 4+2 2.5 acres with an acre of water frontage. a pool and another bedroom would probably get you over that $200k though.

 

[Emcee77]

His initial post plainly states there are "no jobs and no hope for the children of the impoverished". In a subsequent post he writes "we will be a destination for immigrants seeking an opportunity". The contradiction is fairly obvious to me.

The larger point here is that his rant about the lack of opportunity here or hopelessness of the impoverished is simply not true. Immigrants come here to escape poverty. They see the opportunities and the upward mobility this country has to offer. I assure you, they're not coming here for the indoor plumbing or to live poor in this country rather than their own.

I think my point remains. Again, you've failed to take account of the context. It may be true in a sense that there may be "no jobs and no hope" for the children of the impoverished in this country, to the extent you are talking about getting off welfare and moving into a middle-class life. But many of the illegal immigrants coming to this country will be just fine with a life that we consider to be poor or lower-class because even that is a significant step up in the standard of living they are used to. A lot of these people are trying to pick fruit for less than minimum wage, etc.

I assure you, they're not coming here for the indoor plumbing or to live poor in this country rather than their own.

I've failed to make myself clear. What I am saying is that many of them don't consider "poor" people in this country to be "poor" by their standards. Many "poor" Americans have many things these people didn't have and couldn't get in their home countries. Try to imagine really abject, undeveloped, third-world poverty, not welfare-queen poverty. That first kind of poverty is where a lot of these people are coming from. Welfare-queen poverty is a big step up for them.

I don't really want to have the debate about social mobility ... that's an ideological debate that is basically pointless because I know from having it a hundred times that no one's mind can be changed about that.

I just thought that Eddy's point about how the U.S. will always be a country that attracts immigrants because of the higher standard of living was a good one, and I was afraid people would skip over his views if they thought he had contradicted himself. Again, I don't believe he did in substance, although I get how you could deconstruct his posts Derrida-style and make it look like he did.

 

[woolybug25]

my folks house in good ole misty acres was appraised at $175, 4+2 2.5 acres with an acre of water frontage. a pool and another bedroom would probably get you over that $200k though.

When was that appraised? Because I bought a house two months ago and looked at two houses in Misty Acres (my wife made me) and there certainly wasn't anything there under $200k. Looking at Zillow, those two houses are still available and both are over $200k. Both have lots under 1.5 acres as well.

 

[UmphreakDomer]

When was that appraised? Because I bought a house two months ago and looked at two houses in Misty Acres (my wife made me) and there certainly wasn't anything there under $200k. Looking at Zillow, those two houses are still available and both are over $200k. Both have lots under 1.5 acres as well.

it was awhile ago--few years. but i didn't think that there could've been that much of an increase. they did just do about $20k renovation to the kitchen too. i guess it could be over $200k. wow. good for them! lol!

 

[woolybug25]

it was awhile ago--few years. but i didn't think that there could've been that much of an increase. they did just do about $20k renovation to the kitchen too. i guess it could be over $200k. wow. good for them! lol!

From a comparable standpoint, I would assume that it is. It sounds nicer than the two houses I looked at. I was pleasantly surprised by Misty Acres though. It felt way more like a neighborhood than a subdivision. Nice places too.

 

[EddytoNow]

You think they'll enjoy a better standard of living here? How's that possible when they'll just end up unemployed, on welfare, and in the streets?

No contradiction at all. Poverty exists in the United States, and climbing out of poverty is not easy. However, as a US citizen you don't have to be both poor and live in the inner city where violence is a daily occurrence. You have freedom to move yourself and your family to another area. You may still be poor, but you may be able to live where there is less violence. It would be easier if the working poor were paid enough to rise out of poverty. If they were, then the need for welfare would be greatly reduced.

Third world countries take poverty to a whole new level. Our working poor might be considered pretty well off by Central American standards, but I doubt you or I would willingly trade places with them. Obviously, thousands of potential immigrants from Central America feel differently. They would gladly sacrifice for an opportunity to earn even the lowest minimum wage. And there are plenty of American employers willing to hire them at sub-standard wages.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

For those who think a certain state or the US is immune to debt or can't be touched, a little reminder thanks to our friends in Argentina about to default:

Argentina Default Imminent as Talks Collapse - WSJ

 

[enrico514]

For those who think a certain state or the US is immune to debt or can't be touched, a little reminder thanks to our friends in Argentina about to default:

Argentina Default Imminent as Talks Collapse - WSJ

...for only the 4th time in the last 40 years!