Politics

[GoIrish41]

It makes me sick that people cannot get past this political bullshit and see how badly we need basic medical care available for all. .... It's not about politics, it's about human fucking decency.

 

[wizards8507]

This morning I was at a diagnostic lab having some blood drawn. While I was waiting to be seen I noticed a lady crying at the check in desk. As I listened in, she was crying because her husband who has cancer was only going to be able to get a few of the test his doctor had ordered because he doesn't have insurance and only had enough money to cover a couple of them. It was heart breaking to watch. It makes me sick that people cannot get past this political bullshit and see how badly we need basic medical care available for all. Continually hearing people politicizing something that should automatically flow from their heart is disgusting. It's not about politics, it's about human fucking decency.

Do you honestly think that people who don't agree with you want that guy to go without his cancer medication, or is it possible that we just have a different idea about how to go about providing it to him? I'll counter your story with a story of my own. This Saturday I was at the DMV standing in line for three hours to get a little piece of plastic with my name and address on it. THOSE are the people you want in charge of our healthcare in the name of "helping the little guy." I really wish I lived in your goddamn fantasy world where dacarbazine and interferon spring forth from rainbow fountains and are delivered to patients by unicorns who work for free. Unfortunately, I take the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be. The fact is, cancer drugs cost money and somebody has to pay for them. If I get hungry, I go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread. When I get cold, I call the oil company and pay them to fill my tank. Why is healthcare so different that when I get sick, someone else should be responsible for paying my bill? Sure, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be a bill to pay, but given that there is a bill, who more than me is the appropriate person to pay it?

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Two comments:

This morning I was at a diagnostic lab having some blood drawn. While I was waiting to be seen I noticed a lady crying at the check in desk. As I listened in, she was crying because her husband who has cancer was only going to be able to get a few of the test his doctor had ordered because he doesn't have insurance and only had enough money to cover a couple of them. It was heart breaking to watch. It makes me sick that people cannot get past this political bullshit and see how badly we need basic medical care available for all. Continually hearing people politicizing something that should automatically flow from their heart is disgusting. It's not about politics, it's about human fucking decency.

If the kids crossing the border had blonde hair and blue eyes or were black, they'd sure have a lot better representation. I've got news for everyone, nobody that landed at Plymouth Rock had a passport, they were illegals.

From now on, before I listen to anyone's opinion, I want to know more about them and their credibility. What have they done for others? What have they done for our country? Right now in the media, my country sounds more like a bunch of prejudiced, lazy, entitled crybabies than I can stomach.

Go ahead and try to turn my rant here into a republican vs democratic thing. If you do try, you're a stooge. I honestly could care less about political parties anymore. I think people need to stop talking and get to doing, because being a true American is about doing, not talking.

End rant.

As always, all emotion and no logic:

1) The story is heartbreaking. No one wants to see that in our country. Here's my only question to begin: did he have lung cancer from 30 years of heavy smoking or pancreatic cancer that was 100% unavoidable?

2) If we do what you propose and go single payer where the government "pays" for everyone, responsibility is removed from the individual as is incentive to work.

3) If the kids from all these Central American countries had blue eyes or were black, the problems would still be the same: they're breaking our laws, our border is not secure, we cannot afford to take care of millions of other countries' people, and they need to go home. That's EXACTLY what their countries would do to Americans, and those countries ENFORCE their immigration laws.

4) I've got news for you: every single immigrant that came through Ellis Island was legal, earned citizenship, learned the language, started from nothing, and chased a dream.

5) Foreign exchange students here on a temporary basis on a student VISA are still not illegal immigrants.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Get off your high horse for a second, you sound like a jackass. Do you honestly think that people who don't agree with you want that guy to go without his cancer medication, or is it possible that we just have a different idea about how to go about providing it to him? I'll counter your story with a story of my own. This Saturday I was at the DMV standing in line for three hours to get a little piece of plastic with my name and address on it. THOSE are the people you want in charge of our healthcare in the name of "helping the little guy." I really wish I lived in your goddamn fantasy world where dacarbazine and interferon spring forth from rainbow fountains and are delivered to patients by unicorns who work for free. Unfortunately, I take the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be. The fact is, cancer drugs cost money and somebody has to pay for them. If I get hungry, I go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread. When I get cold, I call the oil company and pay them to fill my tank. Why is healthcare so different that when I get sick, someone else should be responsible for paying my bill? Sure, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be a bill to pay, but given that there is a bill, who more than me is the appropriate person to pay it?

Some common sense, thank you.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Two comments:

This morning I was at a diagnostic lab having some blood drawn. While I was waiting to be seen I noticed a lady crying at the check in desk. As I listened in, she was crying because her husband who has cancer was only going to be able to get a few of the test his doctor had ordered because he doesn't have insurance and only had enough money to cover a couple of them. It was heart breaking to watch. It makes me sick that people cannot get past this political bullshit and see how badly we need basic medical care available for all. Continually hearing people politicizing something that should automatically flow from their heart is disgusting. It's not about politics, it's about human fucking decency.

If the kids crossing the border had blonde hair and blue eyes or were black, they'd sure have a lot better representation. I've got news for everyone, nobody that landed at Plymouth Rock had a passport, they were illegals.

From now on, before I listen to anyone's opinion, I want to know more about them and their credibility. What have they done for others? What have they done for our country? Right now in the media, my country sounds more like a bunch of prejudiced, lazy, entitled crybabies than I can stomach.

Go ahead and try to turn my rant here into a republican vs democratic thing. If you do try, you're a stooge. I honestly could care less about political parties anymore. I think people need to stop talking and get to doing, because being a true American is about doing, not talking.

End rant.

Did you write a check for the gentleman so he could get everything he needed? Or did you come on here to rant about "human fucking decency" to make yourself feel better?

 

[GoldenDomer]

Did you write a check for the gentleman so he could get everything he needed? Or did you come on here to rant about "human fucking decency" to make yourself feel better?

 

[GoIrish41]

they're breaking our laws, our border is not secure, we cannot afford to take care of millions of other countries' people, and they need to go home. That's EXACTLY what their countries would do to Americans, and those countries ENFORCE their immigration laws.

Honduras has a murder rate of around 90 per 100,000 inhabitants. In the US it is under five. "They need to go home" doesn't sound very Christian, American or, moreover, realistic. My children were lucky enough to be born in the United States so I am extraordinarily thankful that they'll never have to face the sort of horrific violence that these refugees have to face at home. These parents who are sending their kids to the United States are doing so because they are trying to save their lives. Bob's point about human decency appears to have been lost on you.

 

[Corry]

Well boys and girls this it for me. This is the last time I enter this thread. How anyone can read BodD's post and feel anything but compassion is beyond me. The anger with which he was attacked is unhealthy, and I for one will not let this thread bring anymore negativity into my life. Have good one, and I'll see you in the funny picture thread.

Peace and chicken grease

 

[BobD]

Did you write a check for the gentleman so he could get everything he needed? Or did you come on here to rant about "human fucking decency" to make yourself feel better?

No, I put the remaining $156.19 that they didn't have on my credit card. The couple and the nurse at the clinic have both said I will be paid back. You two are a piece of work.

 

[GoldenDomer]

Dear god, the politics forum is tougher on most HS boards... I will keep my nose in the other threads. It'd be better for all involved.

 

[BobD]

The man with cancer and his wife had $94.81to their name and will probably not eat well the rest of the Week to pay for this.

 

[GoldenDomer]

The man with cancer and his wife had $94.81to their name and will probably not eat well the rest of the Week to pay for this.

Maybe you should leave California if your that crunched for cash. Might save you some money.

 

[wizards8507]

Well boys and girls this it for me. This is the last time I enter this thread. How anyone can read BodD's post and feel anything but compassion is beyond me.

This is the problem. We've become so intellectually lazy and devoid of critical thinking skills that we can't see the difference between disagreeing about whether something is a problem and disagreeing about what the solution ought to be. I do feel compassion for that man, but that does not mean I have to agree that the best way to help him is a single-payer national healthcare system.

At the DMV, beurocracy is annoying. In the emergency room, it's a matter of life and death. What's the difference between what you said and me accusing YOU of not having compassion because you want that guy to wait hours, days, or months for the treatment he requires? You see what I'm saying? We can both have compassion and disagree about how to solve the problem at hand. That's the difference between me and BobD. BobD says I'm a fucking monster who doesn't care for other people. I acknowledge that BobD cares about people, I just vehemently disagree about his proposed methods of "helping."

 

[ACamp1900]

On the topic of human decency…

New whistle-blower says Phoenix VA concealed deaths

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Honduras has a murder rate of around 90 per 100,000 inhabitants. In the US it is under five. "They need to go home" doesn't sound very Christian, American or, moreover, realistic. My children were lucky enough to be born in the United States so I am extraordinarily thankful that they'll never have to face the sort of horrific violence that these refugees have to face at home. These parents who are sending their kids to the United States are doing so because they are trying to save their lives. Bob's point about human decency appears to have been lost on you.

Have you read about or seen Chicago lately? Where should parents send their kids? These governments are colluding and are behind this massive invasion, and yes, it is an invasion of people. Where is the morality in one country sending THOUSANDS of people to another country and saying, "Here, take care of these people. They're yours now"???

Human decency? So if 90% of the world's countries have a high murder rate we should open the borders and "take care" of all these kids? How did that become our responsibility? I don't care if they're from Sweden or Honduras. We can't do it.

Yes, they need to go home and be reunited with their families. They're breaking our laws and we can't afford to keep doing this. It is unsustainable and that cannot be argued.

 

[GoIrish41]

This is the problem. We've become so intellectually lazy and devoid of critical thinking skills that we can't see the difference between disagreeing about whether something is a problem and disagreeing about what the solution ought to be. I do feel compassion for that man, but that does not mean I have to agree that the best way to help him is a single-payer national healthcare system.

At the DMV, beurocracy is annoying. In the emergency room, it's a matter of life and death. What's the difference between what you said and me accusing YOU of not having compassion because you want that guy to wait hours, days, or months for the treatment he requires? You see what I'm saying? We can both have compassion and disagree about how to solve the problem at hand. That's the difference between me and BobD. BobD says I'm a fucking monster who doesn't care for other people. I acknowledge that BobD cares about people, I just vehemently disagree about his proposed methods of "helping."

C'mon man ... you started your post off by telling Bob to get off his high horse and that he sounds like a jackass. Are you suggesting that the intellectually superior way to begin a discussion about how you disagree? It's OK to have differences of opinion and its OK to talk about it, but name calling and trying to humiliate a person is no way to have a discussion.

 

[BobD]

To have the ability to saves lives and not do it over money. Glad I'm not that guy.

I don't have a high or short horse just to set the record straight. I've only been horseback riding about 10 times in my whole life and those were rental horses.

The stuff I saw this morning happens everyday in a lot of places. To be there watching it brought tears to my eyes. Go ahead and laugh at that if you want.

I can't imagine if my wife was sick, having to tell my her I couldn't afford her cancer tests

 

[Emcee77]

C'mon man ... you started your post off by telling Bob to get off his high horse and that he sounds like a jackass. Are you suggesting that's the intellectually superior way to begin a discussion about how you disagree? It's OK to have differences of opinion and its OK to talk about it, but name calling and trying to humiliate a person is no way to have a discussion.

Agreed. wizards, you insulted BobD and now you are insulting Corry for being offended by the insulting tone of your post (and, to be fair to you, of others' responses to BobD's anecdote; it wasn't just you). Calling Corry "intellectually lazy" and "devoid of critical thinking sklls" for having that reaction ... smdh. You've got a lot of nerve.

I just don't understand why this thread can't be kept civil. No one listens to anyone who resorts to name-calling or label-mongering. In addition to the fact that being civil and respectful is just good manners, being uncivil is not a good debating strategy. It just closes the mind of whoever you are talking to.

 

[pkt77242]

Get off your high horse for a second, you sound like a jackass. Do you honestly think that people who don't agree with you want that guy to go without his cancer medication, or is it possible that we just have a different idea about how to go about providing it to him? I'll counter your story with a story of my own. This Saturday I was at the DMV standing in line for three hours to get a little piece of plastic with my name and address on it. THOSE are the people you want in charge of our healthcare in the name of "helping the little guy." I really wish I lived in your goddamn fantasy world where dacarbazine and interferon spring forth from rainbow fountains and are delivered to patients by unicorns who work for free. Unfortunately, I take the world as it is, not as I'd like it to be. The fact is, cancer drugs cost money and somebody has to pay for them. If I get hungry, I go to the grocery store and buy a loaf of bread. When I get cold, I call the oil company and pay them to fill my tank. Why is healthcare so different that when I get sick, someone else should be responsible for paying my bill? Sure, in a perfect world, there wouldn't be a bill to pay, but given that there is a bill, who more than me is the appropriate person to pay it?

The bold sections don't really agree, you are saying that no one wants him to go without his medication even though he can't afford it and the other you are saying that he should have to pay for it.

So how do you want to fix healthcare to make it better? Many conservatives argue the free market, but the free market won't provide free insurance for the poor or drugs for the poor? So, how would you solve the issue?

To counter your story, have you ever had to deal with an insurance company? Many time I have spent hours on hold waiting to talk with a person, waiting for a supervisor or just plain being given the wrong department/number to call, plus they are trying to profit off of the whole thing.

 

[pkt77242]

Have you read about or seen Chicago lately? Where should parents send their kids? These governments are colluding and are behind this massive invasion, and yes, it is an invasion of people. Where is the morality in one country sending THOUSANDS of people to another country and saying, "Here, take care of these people. They're yours now"???

Human decency? So if 90% of the world's countries have a high murder rate we should open the borders and "take care" of all these kids? How did that become our responsibility? I don't care if they're from Sweden or Honduras. We can't do it.

Yes, they need to go home and be reunited with their families. They're breaking our laws and we can't afford to keep doing this. It is unsustainable and that cannot be argued.

While I agree that you don't have to keep them all here, you can't blame the families for trying to get their kids to the U.S. either.

Having said that Republicans are purposefully dragging their feet on passing any bills to help so that they can make a spectacle out of this issue. If it is such a humanitarian issue as they claim it to be then what the fuck is taking so long to pass something to help. Oh right they are playing politics with the issue instead of trying to actually do something to fix it. The President asked for some money to help and the House said we will eventually get around to it yet their members keep going on television to talk about the horrible humanitarian issue that is the President's fault. Personally I was originally a fan of sending many of them back to their home countries but the longer the House drags this out the more I think that they should be let in and allowed to stay as punishment for the Republicans playing politics with them.

 

[pkt77242]

Maybe you should leave California if your that crunched for cash. Might save you some money.

Seriously? Have you ever moved? Do you not realize how expensive it is to move? Is that really your answer? Did you ever think that maybe they are living close to family who can watch their children and help her take care of him when he is really sick?

 

[GoIrish41]

Have you read about or seen Chicago lately? Where should parents send their kids? These governments are colluding and are behind this massive invasion, and yes, it is an invasion of people. Where is the morality in one country sending THOUSANDS of people to another country and saying, "Here, take care of these people. They're yours now"???

Human decency? So if 90% of the world's countries have a high murder rate we should open the borders and "take care" of all these kids? How did that become our responsibility? I don't care if they're from Sweden or Honduras. We can't do it.

Yes, they need to go home and be reunited with their families. They're breaking our laws and we can't afford to keep doing this. It is unsustainable and that cannot be argued.

Between 1820 and 1860 nearly 2 million Irish arrived in the United States -- 75 percent of them as a result of the potato famine. They arrived to an angry sneering American public who made proclaimations about how they would destroy the fabric of the nation and were regularly discriminated against. They have acclimated.

As a direct result of the onset of WWI, 250,000 German Jews came to the United States, adding to the 2 million who immigrated here from Russia, Austria-Hungary and Romania prior to 1924. They were looked down upon and worked and lived in the worst possible conditions. They worked hard and eventually they acclimated into society.

In 2010, 430,000 Asians (36% of all new immigrants) arrived in the United States. They represented the largest percentage of immigration (31 percent were Hispanic). Many of these people will be looked down upon. They will be ridiculed ... but they will acclimate into our society just as millions have done before them. And, we'll be a stronger country for it.

We aren't talking about every nation in the world sending their citizens to America and having us take care of them. We are talking about thousands of kids who are escaping with their lives and the clothes on their backs. We are talking about kids whose parents are still left to fend for themselves in places that are amonst the most violent on earth. You say we can't take care of them ... I say as Americans, we can't not take care of them. And one day, these kids will grow up to be a war heros, great teachers, scientists, police officers, preachers, and they will make their mark on a country who treated them with dignity and compassion. That is what this country is and that is what it ALWAYS has been.

 

[wizards8507]

The bold sections don't really agree, you are saying that no one wants him to go without his medication even though he can't afford it and the other you are saying that he should have to pay for it.

How about a system where he can afford it? See below. Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in private charity. The Leukemia and Lymphoma Society played an amazing role in my father-in-law's cancer battle, helping pay for things like hotel stays for out-of-town treatments.

So how do you want to fix healthcare to make it better? Many conservatives argue the free market, but the free market won't provide free insurance for the poor or drugs for the poor? So, how would you solve the issue?

The poor already have Medicaid. That's not what "single payer" is about, since the poor are already covered. If insurance companies were allowed to compete across state lines, competition would drive prices down REMARKABLY. In many states, you only have one or two insurance companies to choose from. It's a government-mandated oligopoly.

To counter your story, have you ever had to deal with an insurance company? Many time I have spent hours on hold waiting to talk with a person, waiting for a supervisor or just plain being given the wrong department/number to call, plus they are trying to profit off of the whole thing.

See above. Insurance companies are allowed to be bloated and have poor customer service because they don't have to compete for your business. If your only other choice is another company that's just as bloated with just as poor customer service, you have no negotiation power as a consumer.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

The man with cancer and his wife had $94.81to their name and will probably not eat well the rest of the Week to pay for this.

If he has some kind of unavoidable cancer (prostate, pancreas), you're a decent man and the act is commendable.

If he has cancer from 30 years of hard drinking or smoking, well...that's a you decision.

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

While I agree that you don't have to keep them all here, you can't blame the families for trying to get their kids to the U.S. either.

Having said that Republicans are purposefully dragging their feet on passing any bills to help so that they can make a spectacle out of this issue. If it is such a humanitarian issue as they claim it to be then what the fuck is taking so long to pass something to help. Oh right they are playing politics with the issue instead of trying to actually do something to fix it. The President asked for some money to help and the House said we will eventually get around to it yet their members keep going on television to talk about the horrible humanitarian issue that is the President's fault. Personally I was originally a fan of sending many of them back to their home countries but the longer the House drags this out the more I think that they should be let in and allowed to stay as punishment for the Republicans playing politics with them.

I don't blame the families, but that doesn't mean I'd be sitting at the southern border with open arms for all these kids. We have laws. They're being broken. I'm sorry. Your children are going back to you. They are yours.

No bills have been passed because the left wants complete amnesty for the 12 million already here and we can't contain this purposeful, meditated invasion on our border now.

We legally and morally should be doing EXACTLY what any of these countries would do if we dropped 150,000 Americans on them and said, "Here, take care of these people." They'd put the Americans on planes and trains and send 'em right back home.

 

[connor_in]

 

[Whiskeyjack]

I had to edit out several completely unnecessary personal attacks from the last couple pages. There's no problem with discussing these topics passionately, but please try to avoid the ad hominem. As Emcee pointed out earlier, it actually hurts your case.

 

[pkt77242]

How about a system where he can afford it? See below. Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in private charity. The Leukemia and Lymphoma Society played an amazing role in my father-in-law's cancer battle, helping pay for things like hotel stays for out-of-town treatments.


The poor already have Medicaid. That's not what "single payer" is about, since the poor are already covered. If insurance companies were allowed to compete across state lines, competition would drive prices down REMARKABLY. In many states, you only have one or two insurance companies to choose from. It's a government-mandated oligopoly.


See above. Insurance companies are allowed to be bloated and have poor customer service because they don't have to compete for your business. If your only other choice is another company that's just as bloated with just as poor customer service, you have no negotiation power as a consumer.

Actually until this bill passed, AZ had frozen enrollment for adults without children from applying for medicaid to close a budget gap. So while Medicaid does cover many poor people states were actively trying to get around it before the ACA was passed.

Also what states only have one? Most states have at least 2 and many have more (I think Arizona has five or six, and California has about the same). Just for shits and giggles I googled New Mexico (which is a small state population wise) and they had at least 3. I am for opening up competition but I don't think it will do as much as you believe it will because many of the large companies already operate in many different states (Blue Cross Blue Shield, Cigna, Humana, United, Aetna, Kaiser, etc). Hell I have now looked up about 20 states and I haven't found any yet with only 1 insurance company and I have found only 2 with 2 health insurance companies. Most have between 3-6 and that seems to be based more on population (larger states seem to have more insurance companies, while smaller population states have fewer).

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

Between 1820 and 1860 nearly 2 million Irish arrived in the United States -- 75 percent of them as a result of the potato famine. They arrived to an angry sneering American public who made proclaimations about how they would destroy the fabric of the nation and were regularly discriminated against. They have acclimated.

As a direct result of the onset of WWI, 250,000 German Jews came to the United States, adding to the 2 million who immigrated here from Russia, Austria-Hungary and Romania prior to 1924. They were looked down upon and worked and lived in the worst possible conditions. They worked hard and eventually they acclimated into society.

In 2010, 430,000 Asians (36% of all new immigrants) arrived in the United States. They represented the largest percentage of immigration (31 percent were Hispanic). Many of these people will be looked down upon. They will be ridiculed ... but they will acclimate into our society just as millions have done before them. And, we'll be a stronger country for it.

We aren't talking about every nation in the world sending their citizens to America and having us take care of them. We are talking about thousands of kids who are escaping with their lives and the clothes on their backs. We are talking about kids whose parents are still left to fend for themselves in places that are amonst the most violent on earth. You say we can't take care of them ... I say as Americans, we can't not take care of them. And one day, these kids will grow up to be a war heros, great teachers, scientists, police officers, preachers, and they will make their mark on a country who treated them with dignity and compassion. That is what this country is and that is what it ALWAYS has been.

All those groups you mentioned above came here legally and thus, did all the right things the right way and built a future for themselves. They did not just show up one day, get clothes, food, healthcare, and housing. Most of them had to fight, scratch, and claw for every penny they earned. They were handed nothing.

Your reasoning for taking in these people is the awful situation they came from. Fine. What if dozens of other countries in the same situation sent their people here for America to take care of? We can't do it. We have millions of Americans unemployed. The last thing we need is an invasion of more illegal immigrants (don't care what country) who are going to live off of government services. It is unsustainable.

Take the emotion out of it for 5 seconds and think...how can America do this? How can America afford this financially? How is it America's responsibility? These children belong back home with their families. If ANY of them want to come here legally, by all means we are a big melting pot with open arms.

 

[pkt77242]

I don't blame the families, but that doesn't mean I'd be sitting at the southern border with open arms for all these kids. We have laws. They're being broken. I'm sorry. Your children are going back to you. They are yours.

No bills have been passed because the left wants complete amnesty for the 12 million already here and we can't contain this purposeful, meditated invasion on our border now.

We legally and morally should be doing EXACTLY what any of these countries would do if we dropped 150,000 Americans on them and said, "Here, take care of these people." They'd put the Americans on planes and trains and send 'em right back home.

I am not talking about legalizing the people here, you are now trying to tie those two things together. I am not talking about regular immigration I am talking about the flood of children crossing our borders and how we need to handle that issue. You do realize that our law doesn't allow us to send them back without a hearing correct? To get a hearing there is a slightly under 600 day wait period to get in front of an immigration judge. Please don't let facts get in the way of your opinions though.

Here is the breakdown for the spending of the bill I am talking about.
House Says ‘No’ to Obama’s Request for $3.7 Billion to Address Border Crisis — Here’s How the Money Would Be Spent | TheBlaze.com