Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352
P

PraetorianND

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Good info. Thanks for the find

Ya in reality if you're a high net worth individual (despite how young you are) you should be planning around estate tax. Not to mention you're definitely not going to be a sole proprietor for liability purposes.

General rule of thumb is if you're starting a business you incorporate, if you're rich you put your valuables into trust.
 

IrishinSyria

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Estate tax exists to prevent the accumulation of wealth over generations by privileged families. On a case by case basis it almost always sucks, but the theory of the thing isn't actually that bad.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Estate tax exists to prevent the accumulation of wealth over generations by privileged families. On a case by case basis it almost always sucks, but the theory of the thing isn't actually that bad.

Well communism is the bee's knees in theory..
 

RDU Irish

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The death tax does affect everyone. Anyone inheriting assets gets a stepped up cost basis to the date of death or six months after, your choice. That means you get more money because capital gains are not taxed. Compare this to a gift of appreciated securities where you have to maintain the same cost basis, only to net less when you sell it.

IMO, estate tax serves a valuable book keeping function. Set it at 10% or 15% on anything over $500,000. That is not an onerous amount like 55%. Any family business can borrow against assets to cover a 10-15% tax and avoid an asset fire sale. That is also in line with capital gains taxes, thus paying for a lot of the benefit received in most cases.

While it is a very avoidable tax (one colleague always called it a voluntary tax) I find it disgusting, particularly at the 50% level.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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So if liberals can point fingers and accuse the GOP of having some secret plot to eliminate contraception and make abortion 99.99%< illegal, can I do the equivalent by pointing out that two Democratic lawmakers in Ohio want this ridiculous bill passed?

Laws, Acts, and Legislation

Sec. 2911.21. (A) No person, without privilege to do so, shall do any of the following:

(5) Knowingly carry a firearm on, onto, or into any private land or premises unless any of the following applies:

(a) The person is the owner or person in control of the private land or premises.

(b) The person resides on or in the private land or premises.

(c) The private land or premises is not residential rental premises or commercial rental premises, the owner or person in control of the private land or premises permits another person to carry a firearm on, onto, or into the land or premises either by posting a sign in a conspicuous location on the land or premises that expressly permits other persons to carry a firearm on, onto, or into the land or premises or by granting the other person express permission, orally or in writing, to carry a firearm on, onto, or into the land or premises, and the person's carrying of the firearm on, onto, or into the private land or premises is in accordance with that permission and not in violation of any term or condition imposed pursuant to division (F)(1) of this section upon the carrying of the firearm.

(d) The private land or premises is residential rental premises or commercial rental premises, and the person is the tenant with respect to those rental premises.

(e) The private land or premises is residential rental premises, the owner or person in control of the private land or premises permits a person who is not the tenant with respect to those rental premises and is not a guest of that tenant to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises by granting the other person express permission, orally or in writing, to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises, the person is not the tenant with respect to those rental premises and is not a guest of that tenant, and the person's carrying of the firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises is in accordance with that permission and not in violation of any term or condition imposed pursuant to division (F)(1) of this section upon the carrying of the firearm.

(f) The private land or premises is residential rental premises, the owner or person in control of the private land or premises permits any guest of the tenant with respect to those rental premises to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises by including in the rental agreement for the rental premises a provision that expressly permits guests of that tenant to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises, the person is the guest of the tenant with respect to those rental premises, the tenant with respect to those rental premises permits the guest to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises, and the person's carrying of the firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises is in accordance with those permissions and not in violation of any term or condition imposed pursuant to division (F)(1) or (2) of this section upon the carrying of the firearm.

(g) The private land or premises is commercial rental premises, the owner or person in control of the private land or premises permits any person who is not the tenant with respect to those rental premises to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises by including in the rental agreement for the rental premises a provision that expressly permits such a person to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises, the person is not the tenant with respect to those rental premises, the tenant with respect to those rental premises permits such a person to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises either by posting a sign in a conspicuous location on the premises that expressly permits other persons to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises or by granting the other person express permission, orally or in writing, to carry a firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises, and the person's carrying of the firearm on, onto, or into those rental premises is in accordance with those permissions and not in violation of any term or condition imposed pursuant to division (F)(1) or (2) of this section upon the carrying of the firearm.

THEY'RE TAKING AWAY OUR GUNS!!!!!!
 

RallySonsOfND

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Estate tax exists to prevent the accumulation of wealth over generations by privileged families. On a case by case basis it almost always sucks, but the theory of the thing isn't actually that bad.

I really don't see why it is a problem for families to build wealth. Isn't that a goal in life?

Even Russia and China got rid of their death taxes.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Can't really put a farm or business in a trust can you?

Sure you can. You simply retitle the stock certificates/ membership interests into the trust.

Though avoiding estate tax isn't as simple as transferring property into a corporate entity. Currently, the estate and gift tax exemptions are unified. Thus, until the end of this year, an individual can make up to $5 million in life-time gifts or post-death transfers without paying any tax. Every dollar you gift decreases the amount you can transfer tax-free at death by the same amount.

Thus, when you transfer your assets into an LLC, an irrevocable trust, etc., you typically end up burning through a substantial amount of Gift/ Estate tax exemption, which may end up increasing your ultimate estate taxes if your estate is large enough.

Estate tax exists to prevent the accumulation of wealth over generations by privileged families. On a case by case basis it almost always sucks, but the theory of the thing isn't actually that bad.

Yes, that's the argument for it. Inheriting money isn't meritocratic, and in theory it prevents the accumulation of such wealth that could threaten the government (think Gilded Age, "Robber Baron" type wealth).

Full disclosure: I do a lot of estate planning in my law practice.
 
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JughedJones

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I really don't see why it is a problem for families to build wealth. Isn't that a goal in life?

Even Russia and China got rid of their death taxes.



Yeah... wealthy families have a real problem accumulating wealth under the current system.

Strawman?

And it's called an estate tax. Luntz wants his terminology back.
 

NDBoiler

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Yeah... wealthy families have a real problem accumulating wealth under the current system.

Strawman?

And it's called an estate tax. Luntz wants his terminology back.

Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?
 

RallySonsOfND

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Yeah... wealthy families have a real problem accumulating wealth under the current system.

Strawman?

And it's called an estate tax. Luntz wants his terminology back.

Po-tae-to Po-tah-to.



And what I was saying is that why do people want to hinder people from accumulating wealth? The tax doesn't bring in hardly any revenue anyways, in an era where billions is a rounding error.
 

ND NYC

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my friends company (about 200M per yr in sales) has its world headquarters on a "farm". has about 4 acres of corn fields...the rest is the companies buildings...they give away the corn all yr long.

and they get a tax writeoff on the business as a "farm" not for what they actually do (mfg).

"only in our tax code folks....only in our tax code"
 

phgreek

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Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?

Great question...I don't think there is a rational answer for this other than it won the election...but I want to see if anyone really addresses this...
 

Irish Houstonian

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Po-tae-to Po-tah-to.



And what I was saying is that why do people want to hinder people from accumulating wealth? The tax doesn't bring in hardly any revenue anyways, in an era where billions is a rounding error.

Because if we ever go back to feudalism, there has to be something to make sure Robert the Bruce XIII doesn't end up owning title on all our lands and making us all pay military tribute.
 
P

PraetorianND

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Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?

I don't think this is the sentiment that many are implying (although some do). I think people view it more as it is the more fortunates' duty to help the less fortunate.

I don't think people dislike the rich because they are rich. I think people desire a level playing field and don't think they are getting one and some of the rich are to blame. Whether or not this is true is another story altogether.
 

DSully1995

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Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?

Its an obvious knee-jerk reaction to the bad times, my view is this, as long as the pie is getting bigger everyone will benefit(some more than others). You make a great point and I wont try to argue against it (cause its true) but I have another situation like this:

Lately we hearing that so much of the US pop. just doesnt want to work, they just want unemployment checks for the rest of their lives. This annoys me because its another obvious reaction to peoples own troubles, the people havent changed since 2007, millions of people didnt watch Office Space and say "You know what, im just not gonna go to work anymore" People are on unemplyment insurance because there arent enough jobs, not the other way around.
 

IrishinSyria

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Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?

Ok, nobody is trying to say that all business is bad and that we should pull everybody down to the same level. Let's make sure we're crystal clear as to what mainstream politicians are debating:

a) Marginal tax rates on the highest earners of about 35% vs 39%
b) Capital gains taxes of 15% vs 20%
c) Estate taxes on inheritances worth over more than (1 or 5) million dollars...

This is not communism. The wealthy still keep lots and lots of money even if the democrats get there way on everything.

The justification for this is that wealthy people have clearly benefited greatly from the structure of our society (everything from military and police protection to the interstate system to the FAA etc...) and thus have an obligation to pay a higher percentage of their earnings the more money they make. In return for living in an awesome society that's given them an opportunity to thrive, they pay a toll that is then used to make life better for everybody.

This is the theory of progressive taxation. I would love to stay and chat, but I have a war to go fight. Go Irish!
 
P

PraetorianND

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Ok, nobody is trying to say that all business is bad and that we should pull everybody down to the same level. Let's make sure we're crystal clear as to what mainstream politicians are debating:

a) Marginal tax rates on the highest earners of about 35% vs 39%
b) Capital gains taxes of 15% vs 20%
c) Estate taxes on inheritances worth over more than (1 or 5) million dollars...

This is not communism. The wealthy still keep lots and lots of money even if the democrats get there way on everything.

The justification for this is that wealthy people have clearly benefited greatly from the structure of our society (everything from military and police protection to the interstate system to the FAA etc...) and thus have an obligation to pay a higher percentage of their earnings the more money they make. In return for living in an awesome society that's given them an opportunity to thrive, they pay a toll that is then used to make life better for everybody.

This is the theory of progressive taxation. I would love to stay and chat, but I have a war to go fight. Go Irish!

Keep your head down. Prayers.
 

ND NYC

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Sorry to change the topic a little, but I wanted to get some thoughts on this since it was referenced above.

This implied sentiment is thrown around a lot recently, that it is somehow a fortunate person's fault for another's less fortunate position in life. Do we forget that large corporations started at their beginning with an individual's vision and entrepenuership? This individual obviously worked very hard to acheive wealth and fortune, so why are they to be so looked down upon? The common current argument is that this person or business is "greedy" and operates "unfairly" for profits. But answer this - how does this individual/person make said profits? The answer is by selling a good or service. They will only make profits if people are willing to buy this good/service at a certain price. If the consumers will not pay the price they are asking, they don't make the profits. The "99%" controls whether or not they make these "greedy" profits! It is jealousy and envy, plain and simple, in my book. Obviously this doesn't apply to the Enrons and others of that ilk, but for God's sake, why can't an individual pull themselves up by their bootstraps and work hard to reach a goal in life without another's sneering at their acheivement?

i think the problem folks have is not with the folks and companies you describe above.
not at all.
it is with the companies that make nothing never have and thru financial engineering (aka leveraged buyouts) they buy the companies you describe above.


if you have the time, consider the following from recent Rolling Stone article:


Here’s what private equity is really about: A firm like Bain obtains cheap credit and uses it to acquire a company in a "leveraged buyout." "Leverage" refers to the fact that the company being purchased is forced to pay for about 70 percent of its own acquisition, by taking out loans. If this sounds like an odd arrangement, that's because it is. Imagine a homebuyer purchasing a house and making the bank responsible for repaying its own loan, and you start to get the picture.

O.K., but what about this much more virtuous business of swooping in and restoring struggling companies to financial health? Well, that's not a large part of what private equity firms do, either. In fact, they more typically target profitable, slow-growth market leaders. (Private equity firms presently own companies employing one of every 10 U.S. workers, or 10 million people.)

And that's when the fun starts. Once the buyout is completed, the private equity guys start swinging the meat axe, aggressively cutting costs wherever they can – so that the company can start paying off its new debt by laying off workers and cutting capital costs. This process often boosts operating profit without a significant hit to the business, but only in the short term; in the long run, the austerity approach makes it difficult for companies to stay competitive, not least because money that would otherwise have been invested in expansion or product development – which might increase revenue down the line – is used to pay off the company's debt.

It takes several years before the impacts of this predatory activity – reduced customer service, inferior products – become fully apparent, but by that time the private equity firm has generally resold the business at a profit and moved on.

But what happens to the companies after they've been resold? It’s not a pretty picture, as I discovered while researching my book The Buyout of America. Consider a few numbers:

• Of the twenty-five companies that private equity firms bought in the 1980s that borrowed more than $1 billion in junk bonds, more than half went bankrupt.
• Of the ten biggest buyouts of the 1990s, six, including Saks Department Stores, fared much worse than they likely would have had they not been acquired in leveraged buyouts. Three of the 10 produced mixed results. Only one business performed better than its peers.
• As for the 2000s, four of the companies acquired in the ten biggest buyouts of this decade, including Dallas utility Energy Future Holdings, are already in considerable distress.
• Private equity-owned companies reduce jobs over their first two years of ownership by 3.6 percent more than their competitors, and that the worst job cuts come in the third year after a buyout, according to a study by the World Economic Forum.

And let's take a look at the record specifically of Bain Capital, which Romney owned from 1992 to 2001.

• 1988: Bain put $10 million down to buy Stage Stores, and in the mid-'90s took it public, collecting $184 million from stock offerings. Stage filed for bankruptcy in 2000.
• 1992: Bain bought American Pad & Paper, investing $5 million, and collected $107 million from dividends. The business filed for bankruptcy in 2000.
• 1993: Bain invested $25 million when buying GS Industries, and received $58 million from dividends. GS filed for bankruptcy in 2001.
• 1994: Bain put $27 million down to buy medical equipment maker Dade Behring. Dade borrowed $230 million to buy some of its shares. Dade went bankrupt in 2002.
• 1997: Bain invested $41 million when buying Details, and collected at least $70 million from stock offerings. The company filed for bankruptcy in 2003.

Romney owned 100 percent of Bain Capital making him involved in all these deals, which represented more than 20 percent of the money Bain made from its investment funds between 1987 and 1995. Bain’s focus during all this time was leveraged buyouts, and it had not made venture investments since its earliest days.All of this is bad enough. But leveraged buyouts don't only hurt businesses, workers, and the economy generally – they also short-change taxpayers, via a giant loophole in the tax code that enables companies to deduct loan interest from taxes. The provision was originally intended to encourage borrowing to build new factories, not to finance leveraged buyouts. But, according to Notre Dame Professor Brad Badertscher, private equity-owned companies paid a 22 percent tax rate before being bought, and only 10 percent the year after being acquired. That adds up to a savings of $130 billion in taxes since 2000.
Private equity has legions of defenders, from Wall Street to Washington (the industry is very well connected; four of the past eight U.S. Treasury Secretaries have worked in it); but when they point to the relatively modest venture capital investments of companies like Bain, don't be fooled. Look instead to the way Bain and its peers made the bulk of their money – through leveraged buyouts – and see who made out best in most of the deals: the businesses or the private equity guys, like Mitt Romney.



Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...he-worst-of-capitalism-20120523#ixzz2CQWbb4lF
 

pkt77242

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1) no one takes you seriously because despite all the history and facts, you refuse to acknowledge what caused the recession: sub prime mortgage crisis. where'd that come from? carter administration.

the objective: get poor people housing and eliminate discrimination

the sucky part: government forced banks to give loans to people (of all colors) so they could live in houses they couldn't afford. we now call this "social justice."

endgame: people default on loans, banks don't get return money, dominoes fall.

2) the two wars were at least passed and in the budget, and the drug program is a valid point on your end.

3) if you think a LACK of regulations caused a recession, there's nothing I can do for you.

your age and wisdom continue to blow us all away

Where do I start with this post. So many things to pick apart.
1. Subprime loans has little to do with being poor most of the times people get subprime loans because their credit sucks. Shockingly this mostly went to middle class families in middle class neighborhoods FRB: Speech--Kroszner, The Community Reinvestment Act and the Recent Mortgage Crisis--December 3, 2008

The CRA actually had very little to do with the subprime issue. This article from the Federal Reserve talks about how 60% of subprime borrowers that they looked at were middle to high income earners or in areas not covered by CRA. Also another 20% that were done in CRA areas were done by nonbank institutions which are not covered by CRA. So blaming the government for forcing banks to give out these loans is pure bullshit.

The subprime mess was driven by companies wanting to make a quick profit and individuals wanting to keep up with their neighbors.

2. The spending for the 2 wars were not part of the budget they were passed seperately from the budgets. Off-budget accounting for Iraq - Roanoke.com

3. Lack of regulation was a part of what caused this recession. There is no help for you if you don't think that. Though I will say part of it is how little funding we give the regulators so that they are always trying to play catch up to the people they are supposed to be regulating.


Next time please try to have some actual facts in your post. Thanks
 

Irish Houstonian

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..Romney owned 100 percent of Bain Capital...


As far as private equity goes, you're clearly out of your element on this one. Each vehicle is owned by a different set of partners, let alone the entire company. smh
 
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phgreek

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i think the problem folks have is not with the folks and companies you describe above.
not at all.
it is with the companies that make nothing never have and thru financial engineering (aka leveraged buyouts) they buy the companies you describe above.


if you have the time, consider the following from recent Rolling Stone article:


Here’s what private equity is really about: A firm like Bain obtains cheap credit and uses it to acquire a company in a "leveraged buyout." "Leverage" refers to the fact that the company being purchased is forced to pay for about 70 percent of its own acquisition, by taking out loans. If this sounds like an odd arrangement, that's because it is. Imagine a homebuyer purchasing a house and making the bank responsible for repaying its own loan, and you start to get the picture.

O.K., but what about this much more virtuous business of swooping in and restoring struggling companies to financial health? Well, that's not a large part of what private equity firms do, either. In fact, they more typically target profitable, slow-growth market leaders. (Private equity firms presently own companies employing one of every 10 U.S. workers, or 10 million people.)

And that's when the fun starts. Once the buyout is completed, the private equity guys start swinging the meat axe, aggressively cutting costs wherever they can – so that the company can start paying off its new debt by laying off workers and cutting capital costs. This process often boosts operating profit without a significant hit to the business, but only in the short term; in the long run, the austerity approach makes it difficult for companies to stay competitive, not least because money that would otherwise have been invested in expansion or product development – which might increase revenue down the line – is used to pay off the company's debt.

It takes several years before the impacts of this predatory activity – reduced customer service, inferior products – become fully apparent, but by that time the private equity firm has generally resold the business at a profit and moved on.

But what happens to the companies after they've been resold? It’s not a pretty picture, as I discovered while researching my book The Buyout of America. Consider a few numbers:

• Of the twenty-five companies that private equity firms bought in the 1980s that borrowed more than $1 billion in junk bonds, more than half went bankrupt.
• Of the ten biggest buyouts of the 1990s, six, including Saks Department Stores, fared much worse than they likely would have had they not been acquired in leveraged buyouts. Three of the 10 produced mixed results. Only one business performed better than its peers.
• As for the 2000s, four of the companies acquired in the ten biggest buyouts of this decade, including Dallas utility Energy Future Holdings, are already in considerable distress.
• Private equity-owned companies reduce jobs over their first two years of ownership by 3.6 percent more than their competitors, and that the worst job cuts come in the third year after a buyout, according to a study by the World Economic Forum.

And let's take a look at the record specifically of Bain Capital, which Romney owned from 1992 to 2001.

• 1988: Bain put $10 million down to buy Stage Stores, and in the mid-'90s took it public, collecting $184 million from stock offerings. Stage filed for bankruptcy in 2000.
• 1992: Bain bought American Pad & Paper, investing $5 million, and collected $107 million from dividends. The business filed for bankruptcy in 2000.
• 1993: Bain invested $25 million when buying GS Industries, and received $58 million from dividends. GS filed for bankruptcy in 2001.
• 1994: Bain put $27 million down to buy medical equipment maker Dade Behring. Dade borrowed $230 million to buy some of its shares. Dade went bankrupt in 2002.
• 1997: Bain invested $41 million when buying Details, and collected at least $70 million from stock offerings. The company filed for bankruptcy in 2003.

Romney owned 100 percent of Bain Capital making him involved in all these deals, which represented more than 20 percent of the money Bain made from its investment funds between 1987 and 1995. Bain’s focus during all this time was leveraged buyouts, and it had not made venture investments since its earliest days.All of this is bad enough. But leveraged buyouts don't only hurt businesses, workers, and the economy generally – they also short-change taxpayers, via a giant loophole in the tax code that enables companies to deduct loan interest from taxes. The provision was originally intended to encourage borrowing to build new factories, not to finance leveraged buyouts. But, according to Notre Dame Professor Brad Badertscher, private equity-owned companies paid a 22 percent tax rate before being bought, and only 10 percent the year after being acquired. That adds up to a savings of $130 billion in taxes since 2000.
Private equity has legions of defenders, from Wall Street to Washington (the industry is very well connected; four of the past eight U.S. Treasury Secretaries have worked in it); but when they point to the relatively modest venture capital investments of companies like Bain, don't be fooled. Look instead to the way Bain and its peers made the bulk of their money – through leveraged buyouts – and see who made out best in most of the deals: the businesses or the private equity guys, like Mitt Romney.



Read more: Why Private Equity Firms Like Bain Really Are the Worst of Capitalism | Josh Kosman | Politics News | Rolling Stone

Sounds like you have a beef with one line of business in the market place...why not just regulate it, change its tax code?
 
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PraetorianND

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I know you are just relating your feel for the situation...so I'm not attacking it.

but this is hard for me...You have a platform on one hand seething with anger over what they believe is the right's desire to legislate morality w/ regard to abortion, pot, and gay marriage...yet is ok with legislating morality through the tax code...I'm sorry but this appears as a platform of "I just want what I want"...that looks like an entitlement mentality to me...I think the loathing of the Rich is the unfortunate residue of a political strategy (that worked BTW).



I think we need to do a better job of nailing the hell out of people who abuse the system..and are at the root of some of the feelings of a non level playing field. I think its folly to assume social justice is achieved in tax code adjustments...its actually crazy because those who abuse the system...you think they aren't already avoiding what has been their fair share of taxes? I just don't see this approach as having the impact folks think it will. Guess we'll see.

No, actually I was addressing what you asked to be addressed.

Your response had nothing to do with my statements by the way.
 
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PraetorianND

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I know you are just relating your feel for the situation...so I'm not attacking it.

but this is hard for me...You have a platform on one hand seething with anger over what they believe is the right's desire to legislate morality w/ regard to abortion, pot, and gay marriage...yet is ok with legislating morality through the tax code...I'm sorry but this appears as a platform of "I just want what I want"...that looks like an entitlement mentality to me...I think the loathing of the Rich is the unfortunate residue of a political strategy (that worked BTW).
.

By the way, your entire point is laughable considering your opening.

"I know you are just relating your feel for the situation .... but I'm going to do the same thing and tell you you are wrong at the same time."
 
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Irish Houstonian

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I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with thinking that people have a moral "duty" to do stuff, and then enforcing those "duties" via penalty of law.

Some think you should pay for the unemployed. Some think you should carry your unborn to term. Some think you shouldn't use drugs. It's all just a bunch of people wanting different things.

Like Parcells says, that's why you play the games.
 

Downinthebend

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I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with thinking that people have a moral "duty" to do stuff, and then enforcing those "duties" via penalty of law.

Some think you should pay for the unemployed. Some think you should carry your unborn to term. Some think you shouldn't use drugs. It's all just a bunch of people wanting different things.

Like Parcells says, that's why you play the games.

Who gets to decide the moral duty? The majority? Who ever holds power at the time? Who? don't you see the problem with this train of logic?
 
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PraetorianND

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all-aboard.jpg


train.jpg


Jumpin' on the logic train!
 
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Downinthebend

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(1) Here, in the U.S., it's usually a legislature of elected representatives.

(2) No, not really.

So you are fine with a legislature elected by the people enforcing a code of morals on people? Do the terms tyranny of majority or religious persecution, or freedom of conscious resonate with you?
 
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