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After following the discourse in this thread for the past few weeks, I couldn't think of a better place to post this article than here, on a site where people claim to love the University named after Our Lady:




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Saturday, September 15, 2012

"We Have No King But Caesar" by Philadelphia Archbishop Charles Chaput

Posted by: Hugh Hewitt at 7:25 PM





Remarks delivered by Philadelphi Archbishop Charles Chaput at Villanova University Friday:



“WE HAVE NO KING BUT CAESAR:”

Some thoughts on Catholic faith and public life



by Charles J. Chaput, O.F.M. Cap.

John F. Scarpa Conference on Law, Politics and Culture

Villanova University, 9.14.12



A priest I know does a lot of spiritual direction. Two of the men he was helping died suddenly this past year, one of a heart attack and one of a stroke. In both cases they were relatively young men and quite successful. In both cases they watched Fox News. And in both cases they had gotten into the nightly habit of shouting at President Obama whenever he came on the TV. In both cases, the wives believed – and they still believe – that politics killed their husbands.



Now that’s a true story. And it’s a good place to begin our time together today. Henri de Lubac, the great Jesuit theologian, once said that if heretics no longer horrify us, it’s not because we have more charity in our hearts.

We just find it a lot more satisfying to despise our political opponents. We’ve transferred our passion to politics.



My theme today is living the Catholic faith in public life, including our political life. But in talking about it, I need to make a few preliminary points.



Here’s my first point. It’s very simple. We’re mortal. We’re going to die. American culture spends a huge amount of energy ignoring death, delaying it and distracting us from thinking about it. But our time in this world is very limited; science can’t fix the problem; and there’s no government bailout program. Life is precious. Time matters. So does the way we use it. And as all of the great saints understood, thinking a little about our death can have a wonderfully medicinal effect on human behavior.

The reason is obvious. If we believe in an afterlife where we’re held accountable for our actions, then that belief has very practical implications for our choices in this world. Obviously, some people don’t believe in God or an afterlife, and they need to act in a way that conforms to their convictions. But that doesn’t absolve us from following ours.



For Christians, the trinity of virtues we call faith, hope and charity should shape everything we do, both privately and in our public lives. Faith in God gives us hope in eternal life. Hope casts out fear and enables us to love. And the love of God and other human persons – the virtue of charity – is the animating spirit of all authentically Christian political action. By love I don’t mean “love” in a sentimental or indulgent sense, the kind of empty love that offers “tolerance” as an alibi for inaction in the face of evil. I mean love in the Christian sense; love with a heart of courage, love determined to build justice in society and focused on the true good of the whole human person, body and soul.



Human progress means more than getting more stuff, more entitlements and more personal license. Real progress always includes man’s spiritual nature. Real progress satisfies the human hunger for solidarity and communion. So when our leaders and their slogans tell us to move “forward,” we need to take a very hard look at the road we’re on, where “forward” leads, and whether it ennobles the human soul, or just aggravates our selfishness and appetite for things.



What all this means for our public life is this: Catholics can live quite peacefully with the separation of Church and state, so long as the arrangement translates into real religious freedom. But we can never accept a separation of our religious faith and moral convictions from our public ministries or our political engagement. It’s impossible. And even trying is evil because it forces us to live two different lives, worshiping God at home and in our churches; and worshiping the latest version of Caesar everywhere else. That turns our private convictions into lies we tell ourselves and each other.



Here’s my second point. Religious faith sincerely believed and humbly lived serves human dignity. It fosters virtue, not conflict. Therefore it can be vital in building a humane society. This should be too obvious to mention. But one of the key assumptions of the modern secular state – in effect, secularism’s creation myth -- is that religion is naturally prone to violence because it’s irrational and divisive. Secular, non-religious authority, on the other hand, is allegedly rational and unitive. Therefore the job of secular authority is peacemaking; in other words, to keep religious fanatics from killing each other and everybody else.



The problem with that line of thought is this: It’s an Enlightenment fantasy. Plenty of violence -- terrible violence -- has been done in the name of God by believers from every major religious tradition. We’re seeing some of it play out right now in the Middle East. I have no desire to excuse any of it.



But as scholars like Brad Gregory and William Cavanaugh have shown, based on the historical record, there’s no persuasive evidence that religious belief is any more prone to provoking violence than secular politics and ideologies.

The murder regimes of the last century were overwhelmingly secular, atheist and based on bizarre claims of being “scientific.” Cavanaugh notes that even in the so-called Wars of Religion in the 16th Century, “For the main instigators of the carnage, doctrinal loyalties were at best secondary to their stake in the rise or defeat of the centralized state.”

For Cavanaugh, the rise of the sovereign state was a cause, not the solution, of Europe’s religious wars.





What’s really going on in much of today’s hand-wringing about religious extremism and looming theocracy is a pretty straightforward push by America’s secular leadership classes to get religion out of the way. God is a competitor in forming the public will. So God needs to go.



Here’s my third point. Man is a moral and believing animal. Christian Smith, Notre Dame’s distinguished social research scholar, notes that all human beings seem to have a natural capacity for religious faith. That doesn’t imply that all people are “naturally religious,” if we mean by that an instinctive need to worship God in a Western sense. Some cultures – Japan is among them -- seem to get along quite well without Western notions of religion. But all human beings, everywhere and always, have a need to believe something and behave according to a moral code that distinguishes right from wrong.



Why is that important? It’s important because any claim that atheists, agnostics and a secularized intelligentsia are naturally more “rational” than religious believers is nonsense. There are no unbelievers. Smith puts it this way:



“All human beings are believers, not ‘knowers’ who know with certitude. Everything we know is grounded on presupposed beliefs that cannot be verified with more fundamental proof or certainty that provides us with assurance they are true. That is just as true for atheists as for religious adherents. The quest for foundationalist certainty . . . is a distinctly modern project, one launched as a response to the instabilities and uncertainties of early modern Europe. But that modern project has failed. There is no universal, rational foundation upon which indubitably certain knowledge can be built. All human knowing is built on believing. That is the human condition.”





To put it another way, atheists just worship a smaller and less forgiving god, at a different altar. And that means Christians should make no apologies – none at all -- for engaging public issues respectfully but vigorously, guided by their faith as well as their reason.



That raises an obvious question: What would a proper Christian approach to politics look like? John Courtney Murray, the Jesuit scholar who spoke so forcefully about the dignity of American democracy and religious freedom, once wrote: “The Holy Spirit does not descend into the City of Man in the form of a dove. He comes only in the endlessly energetic spirit of justice and love that dwells in the man of the City, the layman.”





Here's what that means. Christianity is not mainly about politics. It's about living and sharing the love of God. And Christian political engagement, when it happens, is never mainly the task of the clergy. That work belongs to lay believers who live most intensely in the world. Christian faith is not a set of ethics or doctrines. It's not a group of theories about social and economic justice. All these things have their place. All of them can be important. But a Christian life begins in a relationship with Jesus Christ; and it bears fruit in the justice, mercy and love we show to others because of that relationship.



Jesus said, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it. You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets” (Mt 22:37-40).



That's the test of our faith. Without a passion for Jesus Christ in our hearts that reshapes our lives, Christianity is just a word game and a legend. Relationships have consequences. A married man will commit himself to certain actions and behaviors, no matter what the cost, out of the love he bears for his wife. Our relationship with God is the same. We need to prove our love by our actions, not just in our personal and family lives, but also in the public square. And that includes our social and business relations, as well as our politics.



Christians individually, and the Church as a believing community, engage the political order as an obligation of the Word of God. Human law teaches and forms as well as regulates; and human politics is the exercise of power – which means that both law and politics have moral implications. Christians can’t ignore those implications and still remain faithful to their vocation as a light to the world and salt of the earth (Mt 5:14-16).



Robert Dodaro, the Augustinian priest and scholar – who’s spoken here at Villanova in the past -- wrote a wonderful book a few years ago called Christ and the Just Society in the Thought of Augustine. In his book and elsewhere, Dodaro makes four key points about Augustine's view of Christianity and politics.





First, Augustine never really offers a political theory, and there's a reason. He doesn't believe human beings can know or create perfect justice in this world. Our judgment is always flawed by our sinfulness. Therefore, the right starting point for any Christian politics is humility, modesty and a very sober realism.



Second, no political order, no matter how seemingly good, can ever constitute a just society. Errors in moral judgment can't be avoided. These errors grow in their complexity as they move from lower to higher levels of society and governance – which, by the way, shows the wisdom of the Catholic principle of subsidiarity. In practice, the Christian needs to be loyal to her nation and obedient to its legitimate rulers. But she also needs to cultivate a critical vigilance about both.



Third, despite these concerns, Christians still have a duty to take part in public life according to their God-given abilities, even when their faith brings them into conflict with public authority. We can’t simply ignore or withdraw from civic affairs. The reason is simple. The classic civic virtues named by Cicero – prudence, justice, fortitude and temperance – can be renewed and elevated, to the benefit of all citizens, by the Christian virtues of faith, hope and charity. Therefore, political engagement is a worthy Christian task, and public office is an honorable Christian vocation.



Fourth, in governing as best they can, while conforming their lives and their judgment to the content of the Gospel, Christian leaders in public life can accomplish real good. In other words, they can make a difference. Their success will always be limited and mixed. It will never be ideal. But with the help of God they can improve the moral quality of society, which makes the effort invaluable.



What Augustine believes about Christian leaders, we can extend to the vocation of all Christian citizens. The skills of the Christian citizen are finally very simple: a zeal for Jesus Christ and his Church; a conscience formed in humility, love for the truth, and rooted in Scripture and the believing community; the prudence to see which issues in public life are vital and foundational to human dignity, and which ones are not; and the courage to work for what's right.



We don't cultivate these skills alone. We develop them together as Christians, in prayer, on our knees, in the presence of Jesus Christ – and also in exchanges like our time together today.



As I was gathering my thoughts for today, I listed all the urgent issues that demand our attention as Catholics: poverty; unemployment; crippling federal deficits; immigration; abortion; our obligations to the elderly and the disabled; questions of war and peace; our national confusion about sexual identity and human nature, and the attacks on marriage and family life that flow from this confusion; the growing disconnection of our science and technology from real moral reflection; the erosion of freedom of conscience in our national health-care debates; the quality of the schools that form our children.



The list is long. As I’ve said many times before and believe just as strongly today: Abortion is the foundational human rights issue of our lifetime. It can’t be ignored or alibied away. We need to do everything we can to support the dignity of women, especially women with broken families or under heavy emotional and financial stress. Our commitment needs to be real, and more than just words. But we can’t do it at the cost of more than 50 million legalized killings since Roe v Wade. We can’t do it with corrupt verbal gymnastics that reduce an unborn child to a non-person and a thing. And we can’t claim to be concerned about “the poor” when we tolerate – and even fund -- an abortion industry that kills the unborn children of poor people in disproportionate numbers, both here in the United States, and through government aid abroad.



Working to give women the kind of material help they need so they can choose against abortion and for the life of their child is a good thing; a vital and necessary thing. But it’s not sufficient. It’s not a substitute for laws that protect developing unborn life – laws that restrict and one day end permissive abortion. Again, law teaches and forms, as well as regulates. It’s a moral exercise. It always embodies someone’s idea of what we ought or ought not to do. Obviously we can’t illegalize every sin and evil act in society. But we can at least try to stop killing the innocent, which is what every abortion involves.



The abortion debate is important for another reason as well; one that’s less obvious but in a way just as troubling. The case for “reproductive rights” hinges on a politically pious and very American form of idolatry: the idolatry of choice, personal autonomy and an assertion of the self at the expense of others. This is ruinous for human community.



Selfishness dressed up as individual freedom has always been part of American life. But now it infects the whole fabric of consumer society. American life is becoming a cycle of manufactured appetites, illusions and licenses that turns people in on themselves and away from each other. As communities of common belief and action dissolve, the state fills in the void they leave. And that suits a lot of us just fine, because if the government takes responsibility for the poor, we don’t have to.



I’m using a broad brush here, obviously. In Catholic social thought, government has a legitimate role – sometimes a really crucial role -- in addressing social problems that are too big and too serious to be handled by anyone else. But Jesus didn’t bless higher taxes, deficit spending and more food stamps, any more than he endorsed the free market.



The way we lead our public lives needs to embody what the Catholic faith teaches -- not what our personalized edition of Christianity feels comfortable with, but the real thing; the full package; what the Church actually holds to be true. In other words, we need to be Catholics first and political creatures second.



The more we transfer our passion for Jesus Christ to some political messiah or party platform, the more bitter we feel toward his Church when she speaks against the idols we set up in our own hearts. There’s no more damning moment in all of Scripture than John 19:15: “We have no king but Caesar.” The only king Christians have is Jesus Christ. The obligation to seek and serve the truth belongs to each of us personally. The duty to love and help our neighbor belongs to each of us personally. We can’t ignore or delegate away these personal duties to anyone else or any government agency.



More than 1,600 years ago, St. Basil the Great warned his wealthy fellow Christians that “The bread you possess belongs to the hungry. The clothing you store in boxes belongs to the naked.”

St. John Chrysostom – whose feast we celebrated just yesterday – preached exactly the same message: “God does not want golden vessels but golden hearts,” and “for those who neglect their neighbor, a hell awaits with an inextinguishable fire in the company of the demons.”

What was true then is true now. Hell is not a metaphor. Hell is real. Jesus spoke about it many times and without any ambiguity. If we do not help the poor, we’ll go to hell. I’ll say it again: If we do not help the poor, we will go to hell.



And who are the poor? They’re the people we so often try to look away from -- people who are homeless or dying or unemployed or mentally disabled. They’re also the unborn child who has a right to God’s gift of life, and the single mother who looks to us for compassion and material support. Above all, they’re the persons in need that God presents to each of us not as a “policy issue,” but right here, right now, in our daily lives.



Thomas of Villanova, the great Augustinian saint for whom this university is named, is remembered for his skills as a scholar and reforming bishop. But even more important was his passion for serving the poor; his zeal for penetrating the entire world around him with the virtues of justice and Christian love. It’s a privilege to stand here and speak in his shadow.



Time matters. God will hold us accountable for the way we use it. Law and politics shape the course of a nation’s future. Very few vocations have more importance or more dignity when they’re lived with humility, honesty and love.



But all of us who call ourselves Christians share the same vocation to love God first and above all things; and to love our neighbor as ourselves. We’re citizens of heaven first; but we have obligations here. We’re Catholics and Christians first. And if we live that way -- zealously and selflessly in our public lives -- our country will be the better for it; and God will use us to help make the world new.



1 Henri de Lubac, S.J., Paradoxes, Ignatius Press, San Francisco, 1987; p. 226

2 See William T. Cavanaugh, The Myth of Religious Violence: Secular Ideology and the Roots of Modern Conflict, Oxford University Press, New York, 2009; and Brad S. Gregory, The Unintended Reformation: How a Religious Revolution Secularized Society, Belknap/Harvard University Press, Cambridge, MA, 2012

3 Cavanaugh, “A Fire Strong Enough to Consume the House: The Wars of Religion and the Rise of the State,” Modern Theology, 11:4 October 1995; p. 401

4 Cavanaugh, “If You Render to God What is God’s, What is Left for Caesar?”, Review of Politics, 71, 2009; p. 610

5 Christian Smith, “Man the Religious Animal,” First Things, 222, April 2012; p. 30. See also Smith’s Moral, Believing Animals: Human Personhood and Culture, Oxford University Press, New York, 2003

6 John Courtney Murray, S.J., “The Role of Faith in the Renovation of the World,” 1948; Murray’s works are available online from the Woodstock Theological Center Library

7 Robert Dodaro, O.S.A., private correspondence with the author, along with Christ and the Just Society in the Thought of Augustine, Cambridge University Press, 2008 (first published in 2004), and “Ecclesia and Res Publica: How Augustinian Are Neo-Augustinian Politics?,” collected in Augustine and Post-Modern Thought: A New Alliance Against Modernity?, Peeters, editor, Bibliotheca Ephemeridum Theologicarum Lovaniensium , 2009

8 Basil, Homily on Avarice

9 John Chrysostom, Homily on Matthew





















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IrishinSyria

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“All human beings are believers, not ‘knowers’ who know with certitude. Everything we know is grounded on presupposed beliefs that cannot be verified with more fundamental proof or certainty that provides us with assurance they are true. That is just as true for atheists as for religious adherents. The quest for foundationalist certainty . . . is a distinctly modern project, one launched as a response to the instabilities and uncertainties of early modern Europe. But that modern project has failed. There is no universal, rational foundation upon which indubitably certain knowledge can be built. All human knowing is built on believing. That is the human condition.”

I almost completely agree with this passage, except my take away is that being agnostic is the only logical response to the fundamental uncertainty tied to the mystery of existence. That's why I consider myself an Agnistic Fundamentalist: it is actually impossible to know if there is a God(s) and what forms those God(s) take. Not saying atheism or religious belief is wrong, just that it is not rational.
 

phgreek

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After following the discourse in this thread for the past few weeks, I couldn't think of a better place to post this article than here, on a site where people claim to love the University named after Our Lady:

I almost broke out the pragmatism and humility admonishment on this and another thread last night...but who'd listen to me anyway...glad you found a credible way to get the message across...reps.
 

Rizzophil

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I almost completely agree with this passage, except my take away is that being agnostic is the only logical response to the fundamental uncertainty tied to the mystery of existence. That's why I consider myself an Agnistic Fundamentalist: it is actually impossible to know if there is a God(s) and what forms those God(s) take. Not saying atheism or religious belief is wrong, just that it is not rational.

I appreciate your honest description. I totally respect your decision to be an agnostic fundamentalist.

I believe that we were created in Gods image. I believe that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be free from sin, guilt, and shame. I believe that God loves us and the more we follow Him and His Word, the better we will be in every area of life.
 

IrishinSyria

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I appreciate your honest description. I totally respect your decision to be an agnostic fundamentalist.

I believe that we were created in Gods image. I believe that Jesus died for our sins so that we can be free from sin, guilt, and shame. I believe that God loves us and the more we follow Him and His Word, the better we will be in every area of life.

And I'm definitely not saying you're wrong. I have a friend who converted to a pretty austere version of Islam (converted might be the wrong word, as she was born half Muslim and was kind of practicing when I met her). She claims that she's felt the overwhelming presence of Allah in her life, and she is certain of his existence. That would, in my opinion, constitute a pretty important piece of evidence- for her- that Islam is the right religion. You seem to have the same feelings about Christianity, and I respect that as well. But for myself, lacking the certitude of belief and confronted by multiple accounts of people who know God- but describe him differently- the only rational response I can come up with is to accept that knowing what God is and what God wants is beyond the scope of my abilities and experiences. The best that I can do is strive to live well in this life and hope that, if there is a God, he will forgive me my uncertainty on the issues of his existence and form.

The point I'm trying to make is just because I don't believe I can know God, and thus consider myself an Agnostic, I don't disbelieve people who do have strong beliefs. I just have to accept that they have had experiences which have presented them with a different set of facts than the one I am working with.
 

WaveDomer

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I hate to start a new thread, so I'll put this here. I think it's an enlightening video. I've written before on here about how the 3rd payer in a 2 party transaction is the problem with rising costs of healthcare and education. Here is a video examining that.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0uPdkhMVdMQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Whiskeyjack

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I hate to start a new thread, so I'll put this here. I think it's an enlightening video. I've written before on here about how the 3rd payer in a 2 party transaction is the problem with rising costs of healthcare and education. Here is a video examining that.

Agreed completely. Good thing Obamacare didn't institutionalize our broken 3rd party payer system.
 

irishff1014

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I hate to start a new thread, so I'll put this here. I think it's an enlightening video. I've written before on here about how the 3rd payer in a 2 party transaction is the problem with rising costs of healthcare and education. Here is a video examining that.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/0uPdkhMVdMQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

This is nothing new with those type centers. They have been around this area for roughly 10 years. The doc's first started doing it for more flexabilty in surgerys. The one here where i live was owned by the hospital. A group of doctors got tired of the hasssel and bought it out. i believe there was 5 doctor offices that bought into it. They were able to charge lowers price because they were able to Chose their rates instead of the over priced hopsital rates. So that part obamacare has not much to do with it. The 2 half of the video yes. Now he might try to put more of thses surgery centers ups.
 

Rizzophil

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Guys - ObamaCare is terrible. Have you seen the market tank? Have you seen the additional wave of layoffs? Every employer is going to pay $1.79 additional per hour, per employee because of Obamacare. Expect more layoffs and less people to work more than 28 hours per job. 28 hours is now considered full time.

If you sell your house and make a profit, you’ll likely be paying a new 3.8% tax on the gain. The law includes about half a trillion dollars in tax hikes, including a new 3.8% tax on gains from selling any asset, including your home, small business, stocks or bonds, effective Jan. 1, 2013.

This is not about health care. It's not about insuring the uninsured. It is about the total control of a free people under the guise of health care.

The USA could keep what we have and give every citizen health insurance for about $80million. Instead, Obamacare is going to cost 30-71BILLION.

Wake up America and see the truth.
 

RallySonsOfND

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Guys - ObamaCare is terrible. Have you seen the market tank? Have you seen the additional wave of layoffs? Every employer is going to pay $1.79 additional per hour, per employee because of Obamacare. Expect more layoffs and less people to work more than 28 hours per job. 28 hours is now considered full time.

If you sell your house and make a profit, you’ll likely be paying a new 3.8% tax on the gain. The law includes about half a trillion dollars in tax hikes, including a new 3.8% tax on gains from selling any asset, including your home, small business, stocks or bonds, effective Jan. 1, 2013.

This is not about health care. It's not about insuring the uninsured. It is about the total control of a free people under the guise of health care.

The USA could keep what we have and give every citizen health insurance for about $80million. Instead, Obamacare is going to cost 30-71BILLION.

Wake up America and see the truth.



THANK YOU. Now the left is going into a tizzy because businesses are calling them out as the reason they are adding surcharges (Denny's), dropping employees hours (Darden's restaurants), and all that Papa Johns is doing as well.

I'm glad businesses are making it public that ObamaCare is the reason for additional charges, rationing employees hours and all the other crap they have to deal with.
 

Bubba

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Guys - ObamaCare is terrible. Have you seen the market tank? Have you seen the additional wave of layoffs? Every employer is going to pay $1.79 additional per hour, per employee because of Obamacare. Expect more layoffs and less people to work more than 28 hours per job. 28 hours is now considered full time.

If you sell your house and make a profit, you’ll likely be paying a new 3.8% tax on the gain. The law includes about half a trillion dollars in tax hikes, including a new 3.8% tax on gains from selling any asset, including your home, small business, stocks or bonds, effective Jan. 1, 2013.


This is not about health care. It's not about insuring the uninsured. It is about the total control of a free people under the guise of health care.

The USA could keep what we have and give every citizen health insurance for about $80million. Instead, Obamacare is going to cost 30-71BILLION.

Wake up America and see the truth.

This is inaccurate information. You would have to make more than $500,000 in PROFIT and make more than $250,000 in annual income as a couple to be taxed by this plan. And then it would only be about $2,000. 97% of us would never be affected by this.

All of this mis-information (from both sides) is just a bit annoying.

snopes.com: Home Sales Tax
 

pkt77242

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Guys - ObamaCare is terrible. Have you seen the market tank? Have you seen the additional wave of layoffs? Every employer is going to pay $1.79 additional per hour, per employee because of Obamacare. Expect more layoffs and less people to work more than 28 hours per job. 28 hours is now considered full time.

If you sell your house and make a profit, you’ll likely be paying a new 3.8% tax on the gain. The law includes about half a trillion dollars in tax hikes, including a new 3.8% tax on gains from selling any asset, including your home, small business, stocks or bonds, effective Jan. 1, 2013.

This is not about health care. It's not about insuring the uninsured. It is about the total control of a free people under the guise of health care.

The USA could keep what we have and give every citizen health insurance for about $80million. Instead, Obamacare is going to cost 30-71BILLION.

Wake up America and see the truth.

I call Bullshit. As of 2010 we had 50 million uninsured Americans and you think we could insure them for 80 million dollars? You are either crazy or you are just making **** up. So we can insure them for what less than $1.50 a pop? How about you wake up and seek the truth.

my 50 millions comes from By the numbers: Health insurance - CNN.com
and
Census: Uninsured Rate Falls As Young Adults Gain Coverage And Government Programs Grow

Ok it looks like it fell to 48.6 million in 2011. Point still stands.
 
B

Buster Bluth

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Both of you are arguing about the "coverage" issues, when the talks should be about "cost" issues. We are lead to believe that because people can walk into the ER and get free treatment whenever, they hospitals need to mark up costs to cover, and that if they were covered by the government that costs would change.

I really don't see this bill are much more than two things:

1) Guaranteeing more costumers for the insurance corporations. It's not rather illegal to not buy their product. Errrr, buy their product or be taxed I guess is the constitutional way to phrase it. I read last week that medical insurance companies' and hospitals' stocks went up in response to the Obama win while stocks as a whole fell.

2) A mere stage towards a single-payer system. I not being a conspiracy theorist here, Obama and the plenty of people in control are on record as saying that they "favor a single-payer system" and have said that they want to get there "eventually." I think it's silly to assume otherwise, that they will be content with this system.

As I've stated ad naseum on here, capitalism has lowered the cost of every good and service since its inception, and yet strangely we have this weird problem with medicine. I read two days ago that 1GB of memory today costs $.10 to make, in 1981 it cost $300,000. I just sorta scratch my head when my brother's girlfriend, a nurse, tells when how much X Y Z cost. What? Really? The overhead is just ridiculous. Where does the money go? The money collected at your local hospital doesn't go to D & R, does it?
 

woolybug25

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Guys - ObamaCare is terrible. Have you seen the market tank? Have you seen the additional wave of layoffs? Every employer is going to pay $1.79 additional per hour, per employee because of Obamacare. Expect more layoffs and less people to work more than 28 hours per job. 28 hours is now considered full time.

If you sell your house and make a profit, you’ll likely be paying a new 3.8% tax on the gain. The law includes about half a trillion dollars in tax hikes, including a new 3.8% tax on gains from selling any asset, including your home, small business, stocks or bonds, effective Jan. 1, 2013.

This is not about health care. It's not about insuring the uninsured. It is about the total control of a free people under the guise of health care.

The USA could keep what we have and give every citizen health insurance for about $80million. Instead, Obamacare is going to cost 30-71BILLION.

Wake up America and see the truth.

You literally have zero references, links or real statistics to back up a single one of these claims.
 

yankeehater

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What is everyone's thoughts on the 59 districts in Philadelphia where there was not one vote for Romney?
 

pkt77242

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What is everyone's thoughts on the 59 districts in Philadelphia where there was not one vote for Romney?

Here is an article about it. 57 distrticts in Philly didn't give Mccain a single vote in 2008 and 5 didn't give Bush any votes in 2004 (so not crazy to think with Obama on the ballot that they would swing even farther the opposite direction).

Romney reportedly received 0 votes in 59 Philadelphia districts - National America Now News | Examiner.com

What you are also not mention is that it is less than 20,000 votes in those 59 districts. Not like it was 1 million to 0.
 
H

HereComeTheIrish

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Saw this posted on Yahoo. It's about as true as I've read.

"Republican leaders are a unique kind of deceptive slime - that doesn't apply to Republican voters (regular families) who I think have genuine issues they are concerned with. The Democrat leaders are not much better - maybe they are a touch less insane, but are equally as arrogant and self-interested. The system of government in America just does not work. It's broken, has always been broken, and can't be fixed - it needs to be replaced. Obama 'won' but all that means is that the Republican leaders were so insane and potentially catastrophic to the country that people voted for another group of arrogant and selfish people (Democrat politicians) out of shear fear that the Republicans will send us into more wars and an economic depression (like Bush and Cheney did)."
 

BobD

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Finding a funding, accounting and administration program for universal healthcare that everyone agreed on could be harder than coming up with a peace plan for the middle east.

Whether you agree with it or not, ITS DONE and we now have a program. People really need to get past the bickering and get behind the SPIRIT OF THE PROGRAM which is to HELP PEOPLE.

Like every other health and welfare program in the world, it will never be as good or as bad as promised, but I do believe it will help people.

I've been on both sides of the health insurance world. I grew up poor and had to go without seeing doctors and dentist because we couldn't afford it. As an adult I've been fortunate, in the Army I was fully covered and in my civilian job I have a great health plan.

My heart has quit on me twice and some of the greatest heart doctors in the world at Stanford fixed me up. The bills were tremendous, but I only had to pay a small portion of them. I can't imagine what would've happened to me if I was poor and uninsured. I'm sure I'd either be dead or in pretty bad shape with a ton of bills I couldnt pay.

I don't know how, but I do know it's right. EVERYONE should have access to the same quality of healthcare that I've had.

Everything in the USA can be changed. Let's figure out a way to make this work and help some people.
 
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ACamp1900

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It's hard for me though Bob, I honestly don't think helping people had anything to do with the spirit of that bill... I don't feel much of anything that comes from washington has do to with anything other than maintaining power at its heart... anyway, I went something like three months without entering this thread... DAMNIT!
 

IrishinSyria

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Finding a funding, accounting and administration program for universal healthcare that everyone agreed on could be harder than coming up with a peace plan for the middle east.

Whether you agree with it or not, ITS DONE and we now have a program. People really need to get past the bickering and get behind the SPIRIT OF THE PROGRAM which is to HELP PEOPLE.

Like every other health and welfare program in the world, it will never be as good or as bad as promised, but I do believe it will help people.

I've been on both sides of the health insurance world. I grew up poor and had to go without seeing doctors and dentist because we couldn't afford it. As an adult I've been fortunate, in the Army I was fully covered and in my civilian job I have a great health plan.

My heart has quit on me twice and some of the greatest heart doctors in the world at Stanford fixed me up. The bills were tremendous, but I only had to pay a small portion of them. I can't imagine what would've happened to me if I was poor and uninsured. I'm sure I'd either be dead or in pretty bad shape with a ton of bills I couldnt pay.

I don't know how, but I do know it's right, EVERYONE should have access to the same quality of healthcare that I've had.

Everything in the USA can be changed. Let's figure out a way to make this work and help some people.

I was going to write something about demand not being elastic, but this was a way better response. Especially agree with the bolded part. Post of the year.
 

pkt77242

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It's hard for me though Bob, I honestly don't think helping people had anything to do with the spirit of that bill... I don't feel much of anything that comes from washington has do to with anything other than maintaining power at its heart... anyway, I went something like three months without entering this thread... DAMNIT!

I am proud of you ACAMP. But now we own your soul.....

MrBurns.gif
 

ACamp1900

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Also, on the point of everyone being entitled to healthcare doesn't this bill still leave quite a few million without coverage?? eh, whatever.
 
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