Politics

[WaveDomer]

It's hard for me though Bob, I honestly don't think helping people had anything to do with the spirit of that bill... I don't feel much of anything that comes from washington has do to with anything other than maintaining power at its heart... anyway, I went something like three months without entering this thread... DAMNIT!

See, something is missing here. That video I posted highlights a program that is insanely less expensive than what a hospital will charge. The care is no less. Like it highlights, a medicine that costs .25 is being charged at over $300 by the hospital. Are you f&^%ing kidding me? That is criminal beyond criminal. Why is it happening? This is the question that should be asked, "If there is a system out there that has minimal costs and has doctors seeing more patients, why aren't we doing it?" The answer is probably one you don't want to hear and has nothing to do with helping people.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Saw this posted on Yahoo. It's about as true as I've read.

"Republican leaders are a unique kind of deceptive slime - that doesn't apply to Republican voters (regular families) who I think have genuine issues they are concerned with. The Democrat leaders are not much better - maybe they are a touch less insane, but are equally as arrogant and self-interested. The system of government in America just does not work. It's broken, has always been broken, and can't be fixed - it needs to be replaced. Obama 'won' but all that means is that the Republican leaders were so insane and potentially catastrophic to the country that people voted for another group of arrogant and selfish people (Democrat politicians) out of shear fear that the Republicans will send us into more wars and an economic depression (like Bush and Cheney did)."

I can't take anyone seriously who believes that Bush and Cheney got us into this recession.

 

[Buster Bluth]

Finding a funding, accounting and administration program for universal healthcare that everyone agreed on could be harder than coming up with a peace plan for the middle east.

Whether you agree with it or not, ITS DONE and we now have a program. People really need to get past the bickering and get behind the SPIRIT OF THE PROGRAM which is to HELP PEOPLE.

Like every other health and welfare program in the world, it will never be as good or as bad as promised, but I do believe it will help people.

I've been on both sides of the health insurance world. I grew up poor and had to go without seeing doctors and dentist because we couldn't afford it. As an adult I've been fortunate, in the Army I was fully covered and in my civilian job I have a great health plan.

My heart has quit on me twice and some of the greatest heart doctors in the world at Stanford fixed me up. The bills were tremendous, but I only had to pay a small portion of them. I can't imagine what would've happened to me if I was poor and uninsured. I'm sure I'd either be dead or in pretty bad shape with a ton of bills I couldnt pay.

I don't know how, but I do know it's right. EVERYONE should have access to the same quality of healthcare that I've had.

Everything in the USA can be changed. Let's figure out a way to make this work and help some people.

This is maybe the saddest thing I have ever read.

If you wanted to truly help people, you would demand policies that open up competition. Capitalism's unique ability to smash price equilibrium via innovation and competition has done more for the good of the human race than any government in history. The government, in bed with the lobbyists of the corporations, still wants innovation (where they see fit), but doesn't care for competition. That is what is wrong with this county.

 

[BobD]

This is maybe the saddest thing I have ever read.

If you wanted to truly help people, you would demand policies that open up competition. Capitalism's unique ability to smash price equilibrium via innovation and competition has done more for the good of the human race than any government in history. The government, in bed with the lobbyists of the corporations, still wants innovation (where they see fit), but doesn't care for competition. That is what is wrong with this county.

"Maybe the saddest thing you've ever read"? You really need to get out more

Theres a lot wrong with this country, but theres still far more right. Get past the doom and gloom dude. The republicans rode that dud into the ground . Rub some dirt on it and get back in the game. We can either sit around talking about woulda, coulda, shoulda or move on and up with positive discussion on how to make the things we do have work.

Anyone can run around pointing out problems, be part of the solution.

 

[irishff1014]

You all will see when the government says what kinda care you can receive when you get older.

 

[GoIrish41]

I can't take anyone seriously who believes that Bush and Cheney got us into this recession.

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe this. There is a reason why the Repubicans ran away from the Bush presidency during this past election and that the "the same policies that got us into this mess in the first place" message resonated with voters. The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program, and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe this. There is a reason why the Repubicans ran away from the Bush presidency during this past election and that the "the same policies that got us into this mess in the first place" message resonated with voters.

Yeah there is. Because 1) Bush sucked and is unpopular, and 2) people are stupid and you cater to the LCD. It's easier to run away than teach economics and history.

The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program,

No those cause deficits. tax cuts put more money into the economy, and wars actually create jobs. Not that those are good things. Bush sucked, we get that.

and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

lol the housing market collapse did us in. The federal government thinking that it could once again ignore business sense and "create policies that allow more people to have the American dream" created the recession. Hell even Democrats speak of it from time to time. Clinton deserves as much blame as Bush, at a minimum. But it stems all of the way back to the creation of Fannie/Freddie and unsustainable policies/programs because there is no accountability in Washington.

It may seem outlandish to you. That actually makes sense! You just don't get it, despite your vast "experience." Sorta sad really..

 

[Buster Bluth]

Anyone can run around pointing out problems, be part of the solution.

THE SOLUTION IS THE PROBLEM. HELLLO!!!!

 

[Polish Leppy 22]

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe this. There is a reason why the Repubicans ran away from the Bush presidency during this past election and that the "the same policies that got us into this mess in the first place" message resonated with voters. The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program, and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

1) no one takes you seriously because despite all the history and facts, you refuse to acknowledge what caused the recession: sub prime mortgage crisis. where'd that come from? carter administration.

the objective: get poor people housing and eliminate discrimination

the sucky part: government forced banks to give loans to people (of all colors) so they could live in houses they couldn't afford. we now call this "social justice."

endgame: people default on loans, banks don't get return money, dominoes fall.

2) the two wars were at least passed and in the budget, and the drug program is a valid point on your end.

3) if you think a LACK of regulations caused a recession, there's nothing I can do for you.

your age and wisdom continue to blow us all away

 

[GoIrish41]

I think the lack of regulation allowed the sub prime mortgage crisis to happen. And, I'm not saying lack of regulation by itself caused the recession, I'm saying that all of the things that I listed combined to cause the recession.

And, the two wars were not in the budget. They were funded with supplementals outside of the budget.

 

[Buster Bluth]

I think the lack of regulation allowed the sub prime mortgage crisis to happen. And, I'm not saying lack of regulation by itself caused the recession, I'm saying that all of the things that I listed combined to cause the recession.

Now please show me where Bush eased regulations on the subprime mortgages. I'll wait.

And, the two wars were not in the budget. They were funded with supplementals outside of the budget.

Uh huh. And? You won't see me defend Bush's fiscal policy any time soon.

 

[IrishinSyria]

1) no one takes you seriously because despite all the history and facts, you refuse to acknowledge what caused the recession: sub prime mortgage crisis. where'd that come from? carter administration.

the objective: get poor people housing and eliminate discrimination

the sucky part: government forced banks to give loans to people (of all colors) so they could live in houses they couldn't afford. we now call this "social justice."

endgame: people default on loans, banks don't get return money, dominoes fall.

2) the two wars were at least passed and in the budget, and the drug program is a valid point on your end.

3) if you think a LACK of regulations caused a recession, there's nothing I can do for you.

your age and wisdom continue to blow us all away

This is a huge mis-characterization of what actually happened. Mortgages to low-income borrowers were not, in themselves, a threat to the economy. What was a threat was when those mortgages got sliced up into derivatives and then sold as assets on the bond markets that were completely disconnected from the original mortgages. The fact is, subprime lending was a hugely profitable business from 2002-2007 and businesses became overexposed to assets that were a lot riskier than anyone understood. The nature of capitalism is Boom and Bust.

BBC NEWS | Business | The US sub-prime crisis in graphics

 

[WaveDomer]

The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program, and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

It's not really true that GW Bush was some type of anti-regulations guy. He was actually pretty expansive on regulations. According to Reason Magazine, Bush was the biggest regulator since Nixon. Under his Admin., spending on regulations expanded 62%. He was a huge regulator.

Another thing that brought on the recession was the repeal of Glass Steagall which kept commercial banking and investment banking separated. This repeal was led by Pres. Clinton and also Republicans like Phil Gramm. So banks started bundling bad loans and selling them as securities. You know that line about understanding history and repeating it? Yeah, that.

 

[NDBoiler]

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe this. There is a reason why the Repubicans ran away from the Bush presidency during this past election and that the "the same policies that got us into this mess in the first place" message resonated with voters. The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program, and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

LOL. I recommend reading a basic economics book or two (I recommend Thomas Sowell personally) and then come back and re-read your post. I am not saying that political policy didn't contribute to this or any econimic downturn for that matter, but this is pretty short sighted and a typical "regurgitation" of pundit-speak in regards to how the overall economy works. Think for yourself and don't just parrot what Rush Limbaugh or Rachel Maddow tells you to think. If your theory that "unfunded" policies alone cause recessions is true, what does that say about our current national debt/federal budget deficit levels???? We're really screwed now!!! Do you know what percentage of GDP our current national debt is equivalent to? Again, multiple administrations have had a hand in contributing to it, but your misunderstanding of economics struck me.

 

[ACamp1900]

I can't take anyone seriously who doesn't believe this. There is a reason why the Repubicans ran away from the Bush presidency during this past election and that the "the same policies that got us into this mess in the first place" message resonated with voters. The Bush tax cuts, two unfunded wars, an unfunded prescription medication program, and a lack of regulation = recession. Your intentionally provocative statements get more and more outlandish with every post.

and where did a massive housing bubble that damn near took the banking system with it play into this... nowhere? Seriously the right that blames Obama for all this debt are morons... equally so are leftists that say it's all Bush's fault.

 

[WaveDomer]

The nature of capitalism is Boom and Bust.

Here is an article that takes a differing view on Boom and Bust and why it might not be the nature of capitalism.

 

[phgreek]

"Maybe the saddest thing you've ever read"? You really need to get out more

Theres a lot wrong with this country, but theres still far more right. Get past the doom and gloom dude. The republicans rode that dud into the ground . Rub some dirt on it and get back in the game. We can either sit around talking about woulda, coulda, shoulda or move on and up with positive discussion on how to make the things we do have work.

Anyone can run around pointing out problems, be part of the solution.

Obamacare...don't point at problems...rub some dirt on the wounds????

Seriously, this is like you building a gun, handing it to me, and saying it has flaws, but trust you. It may blow a finger off, or even kill me, but in the long run, this is best for all who need security. Oh by the way, you threw my engineers and machinists out of the shop while you built it...but I need to trust you anyhow. And I should quit bitching, and act like a company man here...go shoot it, patch myself up, and then "we'll fix it together"...rub some dirt on it...oh wait, get someone with hands to rub dirt on my corpse...

Forgive me if I point to problems since this could blow a proverbial finger off my business or even kill it...

when your "trigger" sucks or is missing, I'm going to point at it and tell you it sucks. And if your sucky" trigger" causes too much risk, or I can't work around it, I may refuse to use the gun...I may ask for my day in court, I may seek to stop production of the gun alltogether by means you don't like...I may force you to fix it BEFORE I use it...that doesn't make me the problem Bob.

...how willing do ya think I'd be to use and work on your gun bob, if it was our gun, and my engineers and machinists had a hand in it...even if the trigger sucked. If folks legislate like we saw with Obamacare...better have it right, and it better stand on its own merrits. And BTW, the legislative process is SUPPOSED to be hard...

 

[Buster Bluth]

This is a huge mis-characterization of what actually happened. Mortgages to low-income borrowers were not, in themselves, a threat to the economy. What was a threat was when those mortgages got sliced up into derivatives and then sold as assets on the bond markets that were completely disconnected from the original mortgages. The fact is, subprime lending was a hugely profitable business from 2002-2007 and businesses became overexposed to assets that were a lot riskier than anyone understood. The nature of capitalism is Boom and Bust.

I suppose saying capitalism is "Boom and Bust" is like saying that humans make mistakes and then learn from them...but ultimately err yet again. It's human nature as well as capitalism's.

My sister's ex-husband is a banker and we used to talk about how as soon as they gave a mortgage they would almost instantly sell it to Fannie or Freddie. The huge banks got overexposed, I absolutely agree with you. That is corporatism though, certainly not free-market capitalism.

Banking lobbyists control this country and now dominate the market. When is the last time a new bank was founded from scratch in this country? It is impossible to start a bank in this country due to regulation. People make the mistake of assuming that all regulation "fights the good fight" against evil corporations, that is false. Corporations who have a say in Congress all put in measures to increase the cost of entering the market and enact policies that help them gain marketshare.

Oh hey look what I just read ten minutes ago, big banks stand to get even bigger if the fiscal cliff happens: Reality Check: Will Community Banks Disappear At The End Of The - FOX19.com-Cincinnati News, Weather & Sports

Sweet.

And now we want these politicians controlling out health care? Is there a chance that it could end badly? What has history shown us, will the federal government continue to be in bed with corporations and eliminate competition in the marketplace?

HMMMM:

BACKGROUND: On March 23, 2010, President Barack Obama signed the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (ACA) which brings sweeping changes to America’s health care system. These include:

Individual Mandates: A requirement that every American have health care coverage or possibly face a tax penalty;

Employer Mandates and Penalties: New taxes and penalties on employers that don’t provide employees with specific types of health care coverage prescribed by the federal government;

Medicaid Changes: As originally enacted, program changes included mandatory expansion of coverage to those at or below 138 percent of the federal poverty level, but this was made optional for states by the U.S. Supreme Court’s June 28, 2012 decision in NATIONAL FEDERATION OF INDEPENDENT BUSINESS ET AL. v. SEBELIUS, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, ET AL.;

Health Exchanges: A health care exchange will be created in every state through which individuals earning between 100-400 percent of the federal poverty level can purchase subsidized health insurance. The federal government will pick the companies that can sell in the federal exchange and companies must sell virtually identical products and share profits and costs for a period of time. States can run the exchange themselves, choose not to run it and leave it to the federal government or leave it to the federal government while retaining the right to regulate health insurance and control eligibility decisions for their Medicaid programs.

What are the ****ing odds of that.

 

[IrishinSyria]

To WaveDomer: Austrian economics does indeed identify boom and bust as the nature of capitalism. The difference between Austrians and Keynesians is that Austrians see the bust as a useful corrective to the boom while Keynesians believe that recessions should be tempered.

The hangover theory, then, turns out to be intellectually incoherent; nobody has managed to explain why bad investments in the past require the unemployment of good workers in the present. Yet the theory has powerful emotional appeal. Usually that appeal is strongest for conservatives, who can't stand the thought that positive action by governments (let alone—horrors!—printing money) can ever be a good idea. Some libertarians extol the Austrian theory, not because they have really thought that theory through, but because they feel the need for some prestigious alternative to the perceived statist implications of Keynesianism. And some people probably are attracted to Austrianism because they imagine that it devalues the intellectual pretensions of economics professors. But moderates and liberals are not immune to the theory's seductive charms—especially when it gives them a chance to lecture others on their failings.

http://http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/1998/12/the_hangover_theory.html

 

[WaveDomer]

To WaveDomer: Austrian economics does indeed identify boom and bust as the nature of capitalism. The difference between Austrians and Keynesians is that Austrians see the bust as a useful corrective to the boom while Keynesians believe that recessions should be tempered.



http://http://www.slate.com/articles/business/the_dismal_science/1998/12/the_hangover_theory.html

Austrians do see the bust as a corrective, but they also see the bust as a result of fractional reserve banking. My point was that the Austrian view is that with the banking system as is, there is government intervention and isn't really free market.

Krugman doesn't understand Austrian Economics and as he talks about "emotional appeal" that's exactly what he does by bagging on the Austrians in the text you quoted. Here is a response to that exact article.

Here is a quote from Ron Paul about capitalism: "Capitalism should not be condemned, since we haven't had capitalism. A system of capitalism presumes sound money, not fiat money manipulated by a central bank. Capitalism cherishes voluntary contracts and interest rates that are determined by savings, not credit creation by a central bank. It's not capitalism when the system is plagued with incomprehensible rules regarding mergers, acquisitions, and stock sales, along with wage controls, price controls, protectionism, corporate subsidies, international management of trade, complex and punishing corporate taxes, privileged government contracts to the military-industrial complex, and a foreign policy controlled by corporate interests and overseas investments. Add to this centralized federal mismanagement of farming, education, medicine, insurance, banking and welfare. This is not capitalism!"

 

[RallySonsOfND]

I want to hear what you guys have to say about the Estate Tax (Death Tax)?

 

[PraetorianND]

I want to hear what you guys have to say about the Estate Tax (Death Tax)?

People have the misconception that it affects everyone when it only impacts people getting over $5,000,000.

That being said I don't think that death should be a taxable event like selling stock or working.

 

[PraetorianND]

It's estates worth over $5 Million. And is scheduled to drop down to $1 Million with a 55% taxable rate.



I personally think it is bullshit. Government double taxation

Good article on it - Ranchers, farmers brace for 'death tax' impact | Fox News

Yep. Agree with your sentiment. However, Fox news is terrible. I would avoid reading news from that source even on something benign (politically).

 

[Irish Houstonian]

The death tax does kind of suck, but it's so easy to estate-plan around that I almost don't feel sorry for those it affects.

 

[RallySonsOfND]

The death tax does kind of suck, but it's so easy to estate-plan around that I almost don't feel sorry for those it affects.

I agree that it can be planned around, but if something happens to that plan (Parent suddenly dies, etc) it screws people over.

 

[PraetorianND]

The death tax does kind of suck, but it's so easy to estate-plan around that I almost don't feel sorry for those it affects.

Completely agree with this. Although in principle I disagree with treating death as a taxable event. It just seems....... wrong.

Alarm Sounds on Estate Taxes - WSJ.com

Why The Death Tax Is The Dumb Tax - Forbes

Yes. Much better

 

[PraetorianND]

I agree that it can be planned around, but if something happens to that plan (Parent suddenly dies, etc) it screws people over.

That just means the plan wasn't very good. You should get your valuable assets in trust asap if you've got a valuable estate.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

On an unrelated note, I was a little surprised at how JoPa's sale of his house to his wife for $1.00 didn't get more press. He was protecting himself against some huge lawsuit.

 

[Irish Houstonian]

Can't really put a farm or business in a trust can you?

From what I remember...I think you can put anything in trust, you're just giving up control over the business to the trustee.

 

[PraetorianND]

Can't really put a farm or business in a trust can you?

Can't you use a "Farm Family Trust?"

http://www.nj.gov/agriculture/sadc/publications/transferprofilesbooklet.pdf
I just skimmed a bit of this.

If a business is incorporated it's not affected by someone dying.