Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

phgreek

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Thank you for your valuable contribution.

Can't see the italics...it is JUST like I said...I'm telling ya, there is some sort of malfunction...somewhere...aha

Try smiling when you type (I'm actually laughing right now)
Avoid politics when menstruating (be aware politics may cause menstruation in some)
Try to remember morality is not defined by D or R...

Happy election season...:)
 

Rizzophil

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A legitimate argument I had tonight with a Republican. He said none of us are going to receive social security because of Obama. Umm are you fing kidding me?? I didn't know President Obama aged the population just to screw us over. News to me. This is some of the stuff I can just not wrap my head around. what was President Obama supposed to do, kill off the aging population? Another argument I have against Republicans is that the number one reason a country is described as 3rd world is because of the disparity between the rich and the poor. I see a growing disparity between the 2. does anyone else see this also?

Dems "occasionally" blame Republicans for killing the planet, women, social security, Medicare, poor, etc. Unfortunately, they aren't true.

Republicans want to reform Social Security because it's a HUGE unfunded liability. If it isn't reformed with true leadership, no one will get it. Republicans want to save it.
 
B

Bogtrotter07

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Saw this on Reddit. Found it thought-provoking. Sharing it here.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SC_wjQtfhZQ" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I have a good friend that went to highschool with him. I saw him in concert in the 1970's, probably before the seven words you can't say on television. He was more than an entertainer . . .

Republicans want to "reform" social security, because that is where the money is. Republican plans to help out social security prior to and through Bush, were to open the trust and invest it getting a better rate of return, like everybody was getting in the market. Can you imagine what would have happened with that?

I really can't get past the Republican plan to pay down the debt with a tax cut, (5b). I can't be cynical enough to believe that the powers to be think that the entire American populace is that stupid; nor can I quite get to the fact that the powers that be want Barak Obama elected that badly!

I think that people that worked hard through high school, and college, and grad school, in industry, medicine, banking, or whatever, people that were all about acquiring money, all these years saw successful entertainers and athletes, and what they were making, and decided that if people that didn't do anything important made that, they surely should. So they went out and got theirs. This happened durring the height of the trickle-down economics era, while unions were being busted and pension funds were raided.

The Olympic joke was not a joke. It happend. Romeny went to England, pulled out his Olympic expertise and made a series of comments only a douche bag would think, (let alone say out loud, to your host, when you were running for the highest elected office.) I was just talking to a friend who always voted person not party, and doesn't watch the big speeches. He used the Olympic brouhaha as proof Romney was truly stupid.

There are a couple good books out on inflation and how it is the Zyclon gas of personal wealth in this country. The jist of them all is this. We are taught that inflation is a specific thing. And we are led to belive we can think of it as a tangible. And that leads us to believe that it's definition is consistent. It is not. Every Presidential administration can change the definition of what inflation is. Do you include food? Do you include energy? Do you include housing prices? Or do you pick the combination that best reflects your puropse? Check it out. It is kind of funny, because I have seen heated arguments over apples to oranges, when either party had no idea what fruit they had.

Then add the myth of home ownership. Home ownership happend before the Second World War, and people had real wealth stolen from them. People paid for years, paid off their morgages, and had parties when they did and burned the papers. So what happened when the average home fell to two-fifths of it's pre depression value in the late '30's? After the war the new housing industry was not based upon ownership, it was based upon pre-paid subsidised rental. This financial transaction was pinned to an asset, it is true? But what happened in 2008 when this asset fell by as much as 40% in value? This was as big of a theft as raiding the pension funds, and filling them with worthless stock.
 
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C

Cackalacky

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I have a good friend that went to highschool with him. I saw him in concert in the 1970's, probably before the seven words you can't say on television. He was more than an entertainer . . .

Republicans want to "reform" social security, because that is where the money is. Republican plans to help out social security prior to and through Bush, were to open the trust and invest it getting a better rate of return, like everybody was getting in the market. Can you imagine what would have happened with that?

I really can't get past the Republican plan to pay down the debt with a tax cut, (5b). I can't be cynical enough to believe that the powers to be think that the entire American populace is that stupid; nor can I quite get to the fact that the powers that be want Barak Obama elected that badly!

I think that people that worked hard through high school, and college, and grad school, in industry, medicine, banking, or whatever, people that were all about acquiring money, all these years saw successful entertainers and athletes, and what they were making, and decided that if people that didn't do anything important made that, they surely should. So they went out and got theirs. This happened durring the height of the trickle-down economics era, while unions were being busted and pension funds were raided.

The Olympic joke was not a joke. It happend. Romeny went to England, pulled out his Olympic expertise and made a series of comments only a douche bag would think, (let alone say out loud, to your host, when you were running for the highest elected office.) I was just talking to a friend who always voted person not party, and doesn't watch the big speeches. He used the Olympic brouhaha as proof Romney was truly stupid.

There are a couple good books out on inflation and how it is the Zyclon gas of personal wealth in this country. The jist of them all is this. We are taught that inflation is a specific thing. And we are led to belive we can think of it as a tangible. And that leads us to believe that it's definition is consistent. It is not. Every Presidential administration can change the definition of what inflation is. Do you include food? Do you include energy? Do you include housing prices? Or do you pick the combination that best reflects your puropse? Check it out. It is kind of funny, because I have seen heated arguments over apples to oranges, when either party had no idea what fruit they had.

Then add the myth of home ownership. Home ownership happend before the Second World War, and people had real wealth stolen from them. People paid for years, paid off their morgages, and had parties when they did and burned the papers. So what happened when the average home fell to two-fifths of it's pre depression value in the late '30's? After the war the new housing industry was not based upon ownership, it was based upon pre-paid subsidised rental. This financial transaction was pinned to an asset, it is true? But what happened in 2008 when this asset fell by as much as 40% in value? This was as big of a theft as raiding the pension funds, and filling them with worthless stock.

The concept of wealth is as nebulous as the concept of printed money (see Germany during and after WWII. See Eastern bloc and USSR during the Cold War). Exchanging tangible things like physical products or labor and services for intangible paper with printed #s on it is problematic at its core, particularly when it is not backed up by any physical thing with real worth.

"The concept of wealth is of significance in all areas of economics, and clearly so for growth economics and development economics. Yet the meaning of wealth is context-dependent and there is no universally agreed upon definition. At the most general level, economists may define wealth as "anything of value" which captures both the subjective nature of the idea and the idea that it is not a fixed or static concept. Various definitions and concepts of wealth have been asserted by various individuals and in different contexts. Defining wealth can be a normative process with various ethical implications, since often wealth maximization is seen as a goal or is thought to be a normative principle of its own." - wiki

"Wealth is not a zero sum game because people create wealth.

What is wealth? Wealth is physical stuff that makes life easier. Note, it's not money. Money is a form of wealth which is only of value in a fairly advanced society. Wealth is more fundamental than that.

Consider how useless a $100 bill would be if you lived alone, on a desert island. But consider how much more valuable a net for catching fish would be. Making a net from sticks and other available materials would be smart thing to do, because it would enable you to spend less time catching all the fish you need to live.

Making a net requires time and thought and effort. But the return is more free time. Ending each day with with enough fish to eat becomes easier.

Wealth, as such, makes life more secure (e.g. antibiotics in case you get an infection, rather than near-certain death), more comfortable (a warm bed in a house rather than a mat of sticks in a damp cave), easier (an electronic calculator rather than a pencil), and even more fun (a tennis court and a pair of rackets, rather than a thicket). People create wealth because they want life to be secure, comfortable, easy, and fun.

Perhaps, then, what is hard to grasp is that trade is not a zero-sum game.

Imagine there are two men on a desert island, one who makes water-shoes, and one who makes nets, and they trade, one net for one pair of water-shoes. One can get confused about this by thinking "The net's worth $30, and the shoes are worth $25, so the shoemaker is gaining $5 worth, and the net-maker is losing $5 worth."

The problem here is in thinking that a net, or a pair of water-shoes, has an inherent worth independent of who is evaluating it. Bringing in supposed dollar prices to measure the worth of nets and water-shoes hides a crucial pair of facts: that the net-maker's first pair of water shoes is worth more to him than his second net, and the shoemaker's first net is worth more to him than his second pair of water shoes.

Assuming, due to acquired skill, the net-maker can make good nets faster than the shoe-maker can, and assuming the shoe-maker can make good shoes faster than the net-maker can, trade lets each man have both a net, and a pair of shoes, at a time-cost that is lower than it would be had he attempted to make both a net and a pair of shoes himself.

That's why both men want to trade. It allows each of them to achieve the desired end result in less time.

Due to specialization, trade enables each man to help the other man while benefiting himself.

Imagine what would happen if trade were somehow forbidden: Each man would make both nets and water-shoes. No man would be motivated to make more nets (or shoes) than he needed. Neither man would become as expert at a craft as he would have become had trade been possible.

Free trade, then, motivates specialization, and specialization (the development of skill at doing one thing), increases wealth creation, because skill makes creating wealth easier.

The larger a society grows, given free trade, the fewer skills any particular individual must master in order to live, and therefore the more skilled he can become in his specialty. Each person gets really good at producing a particular kind of wealth, and trades it for the other kinds of wealth he needs.

This yields immense prosperity, and nobody loses unless he wastes his time producing lots of things which nobody wants. To prosper, one must not produce blindly.

Peter Schiff's book "How an Economy Grows and Why It Crashes" inspired my examples. I recommend this book, at least its beginning chapters."
Why is wealth not a zero-sum game? - Objectivist Answers
 

Ndaccountant

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Pretty dismal numbers on jobs this morning. Lowered the job gains from previous months and reported the lowest labor force participation in over 30 years. The rate dropped, but that is more or less a mirage.

I really hope those is Washington figure out that the longer they bicker between themselves and allow the economy to stumble forward, the bigger the hole will be. Looks like Ben is ready to fire up the printing press again.........

From the press release:

"While the unemployment rate dropped to 8.1 percent from 8.3 percent in July, that was because so many Americans gave up the hunt for work. The survey of households from which the jobless rate is derived actually showed a drop in employment.

The weak tenor of the report was also emphasized by revisions to June and July data to show 41,000 fewer jobs created than previously reported.

In addition, the labor force participation rate, or the percentage of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one, fell to 63.5 percent -- the lowest since September 1981.

A total of 368,000 people gave up looking for work in August, the household survey showed.

Since the beginning of the year, job growth has averaged 139,000 per month, compared with an average monthly gain of 153,000 in 2011. The latest gain left the economy 4.7 million jobs in the hole since a brutal recession struck in December 2007, and that does not take into account population growth, which would make the deficit even greater.

Economists blame fears of the so-called U.S. fiscal cliff -- the $500 billion or so in expiring tax cuts and government spending reductions set to take hold at the start of next year unless Congress acts -- and Europe's long-running debt problems, for the slowdown in hiring."
 

Irish Houstonian

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At least it's nice to finally see the late night spreading their jokes around. Some of these are pretty funny regardless of your political leanings:

The stoner comedy duo Harold and Kumar are starring in a new promo for the Democratic convention alongside President Obama, which is pretty impressive. The only other person to go from smoking pot with buddies to the White House is President Obama. -Jay Leno

President Obama's re-election campaign said that this year they'll knock on 150 percent more doors than they did in 2008. Well, of course they will. They have to. There's so many foreclosures it's tough to tell where people live. -Jay Leno

They announced today that they are moving President Obama's speech tomorrow night indoors, from the 74,000-seat stadium to a smaller venue due to the possibility of severe weather. See, apparently the campaign is concerned about this well-known weather phenomenon known as empty seats. -Jay Leno

The Democratic Convention began tonight. What a difference four years makes. Last time the theme was "Hope and change." This year the theme is "Hope you don't make a change." -Jay Leno

The first two nights of the Democratic convention are at the Time Warner Cable Arena and the big speech by President Obama will be at the Bank of America Stadium. That's good thinking, the two things Americans love most: cable companies and banks. -Jay Leno

If you're a donor to President Obama's campaign, you were promised exclusive access to Joe Biden -- and for an extra $10,000 absolutely no access to Joe Biden. -Conan O'Brien

The Democratic National Convention is under way. For three days in Charlotte, N.C., everything the Democrats do is good. And everything Republicans do is evil. It doesn't bother me. I live in Hollywood. It is like that here every day. -Craig Ferguson

Former Democratic nominee John Kerry is going to give a speech about foreign policy. It will be like Clint Eastwood's speech except this time the empty chairs will be in the audience. -Craig Ferguson

On Saturday the White House released President Obama's personal recipe for a home-brewed beer. That's how bad the economy is. Not only is our president drinking, he's drinking beer he made in his bathtub. -Jimmy Kimmel

There are reports that nine of the hotels being used for politicians at the Democratic National Convention have bedbugs. When asked what it's like to have to deal with thousands of ruthless bloodsuckers, the bedbugs were like, "Eh, it's OK." -Jimmy Fallon

A man in Florida has been arrested for wearing a President Obama mask while robbing a McDonald's. To show you how good this guy's disguise was, instead of a holdup note he was reading from a teleprompter. -Jay Leno

This Obama robber made some pretty scary threats to the McDonald's employees. He said, "Give me your money, or else my economic plan will have you working here for the rest of your life." -Jay Leno
 

RDU Irish

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Reps Houstonian. Funny stuff.

I watched some last night. Biden is kind of nuts. Obama is the same empty suit he was four years ago. The OBL footage always reminds me of "take your kid to work day" only that day the military brought Obama and Biden.

I am biased, but for a much more casual observer I can see why they get enamoured by Obama's delivery of zero substance. He talks a mean game. Skin deep but that is the attention span of the average American. I am more concerned about him holding on that I was before the week started.

Thankfully I don't see too many speeches getting big publicity here out. Debates will make or break it and no teleprompters there. I have found the unscripted Obama look much to arrogant, condescending and stuttering and Romney will have an opportunity to gain but could just as easily drop the ball.

I agree that the VP debate will be much more entertaining to watch, but probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things.
 

phgreek

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Pretty dismal numbers on jobs this morning. Lowered the job gains from previous months and reported the lowest labor force participation in over 30 years. The rate dropped, but that is more or less a mirage.

I really hope those is Washington figure out that the longer they bicker between themselves and allow the economy to stumble forward, the bigger the hole will be. Looks like Ben is ready to fire up the printing press again.........

From the press release:

"While the unemployment rate dropped to 8.1 percent from 8.3 percent in July, that was because so many Americans gave up the hunt for work. The survey of households from which the jobless rate is derived actually showed a drop in employment.

The weak tenor of the report was also emphasized by revisions to June and July data to show 41,000 fewer jobs created than previously reported.

In addition, the labor force participation rate, or the percentage of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one, fell to 63.5 percent -- the lowest since September 1981.

A total of 368,000 people gave up looking for work in August, the household survey showed.

Since the beginning of the year, job growth has averaged 139,000 per month, compared with an average monthly gain of 153,000 in 2011. The latest gain left the economy 4.7 million jobs in the hole since a brutal recession struck in December 2007, and that does not take into account population growth, which would make the deficit even greater.

Economists blame fears of the so-called U.S. fiscal cliff -- the $500 billion or so in expiring tax cuts and government spending reductions set to take hold at the start of next year unless Congress acts -- and Europe's long-running debt problems, for the slowdown in hiring."

we knew this was coming...it sucks...people suffering, and it needs to get better much faster.
 

phgreek

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At least it's nice to finally see the late night spreading their jokes around. Some of these are pretty funny regardless of your political leanings:

The stoner comedy duo Harold and Kumar are starring in a new promo for the Democratic convention alongside President Obama, which is pretty impressive. The only other person to go from smoking pot with buddies to the White House is President Obama. -Jay Leno

President Obama's re-election campaign said that this year they'll knock on 150 percent more doors than they did in 2008. Well, of course they will. They have to. There's so many foreclosures it's tough to tell where people live. -Jay Leno

They announced today that they are moving President Obama's speech tomorrow night indoors, from the 74,000-seat stadium to a smaller venue due to the possibility of severe weather. See, apparently the campaign is concerned about this well-known weather phenomenon known as empty seats. -Jay Leno

The Democratic Convention began tonight. What a difference four years makes. Last time the theme was "Hope and change." This year the theme is "Hope you don't make a change." -Jay Leno

The first two nights of the Democratic convention are at the Time Warner Cable Arena and the big speech by President Obama will be at the Bank of America Stadium. That's good thinking, the two things Americans love most: cable companies and banks. -Jay Leno

If you're a donor to President Obama's campaign, you were promised exclusive access to Joe Biden -- and for an extra $10,000 absolutely no access to Joe Biden. -Conan O'Brien

The Democratic National Convention is under way. For three days in Charlotte, N.C., everything the Democrats do is good. And everything Republicans do is evil. It doesn't bother me. I live in Hollywood. It is like that here every day. -Craig Ferguson

Former Democratic nominee John Kerry is going to give a speech about foreign policy. It will be like Clint Eastwood's speech except this time the empty chairs will be in the audience. -Craig Ferguson

On Saturday the White House released President Obama's personal recipe for a home-brewed beer. That's how bad the economy is. Not only is our president drinking, he's drinking beer he made in his bathtub. -Jimmy Kimmel

There are reports that nine of the hotels being used for politicians at the Democratic National Convention have bedbugs. When asked what it's like to have to deal with thousands of ruthless bloodsuckers, the bedbugs were like, "Eh, it's OK." -Jimmy Fallon

A man in Florida has been arrested for wearing a President Obama mask while robbing a McDonald's. To show you how good this guy's disguise was, instead of a holdup note he was reading from a teleprompter. -Jay Leno

This Obama robber made some pretty scary threats to the McDonald's employees. He said, "Give me your money, or else my economic plan will have you working here for the rest of your life." -Jay Leno

...very good, thanks
 

NDFan4Life

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Pretty funny:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/vdnY8r7_fLw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 
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Reps Houstonian. Funny stuff.

I watched some last night. Biden is kind of nuts. Obama is the same empty suit he was four years ago. The OBL footage always reminds me of "take your kid to work day" only that day the military brought Obama and Biden.

I am biased, but for a much more casual observer I can see why they get enamoured by Obama's delivery of zero substance. He talks a mean game. Skin deep but that is the attention span of the average American. I am more concerned about him holding on that I was before the week started.

Thankfully I don't see too many speeches getting big publicity here out. Debates will make or break it and no teleprompters there. I have found the unscripted Obama look much to arrogant, condescending and stuttering and Romney will have an opportunity to gain but could just as easily drop the ball.

I agree that the VP debate will be much more entertaining to watch, but probably insignificant in the grand scheme of things.


If Obama is an "empty suit," what the heck would you classify Romney as?
 

jason_h537

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A stiff in a suit. Lucky for Obama our American Idol nation treasures a good delivery over substance.

Watching the RNC and DNC there was zero substance in the RNC. We had Christie talk about how great he was, we had Ryan lie, we had Romney talk about this amazing America he grew up in that existed only on TV sitcoms, and more "we built it" nonsense. The DNC talked about their platform and compared their policy to the republicans. You can say that you do not agree with the Democratic platform, but to suggest there was no substance tells me you either did not watch, or did not listen.

Also, it is funny how returning to the tax codes that existed for most of the 20th century is now picking winners and losers.
 

TheRealLynch51

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My personal feeling is that as long as the economy slowly improves, as it has in the past 4 years, and not greatly improves, then we will not elect a president for two consecutive terms in the next 12 years.
 

jason_h537

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My personal feeling is that as long as the economy slowly improves, as it has in the past 4 years, and not greatly improves, then we will not elect a president for two consecutive terms in the next 12 years.

The economy will not improve as long as parties are looking out for their best interests. Until actual compromise happens, it will be a long slow haul. My fear is that if Obama wins, Reps will become even more conservative and combative, and if Romney wins, Dems will do the same thing Reps did to Obama, block everything.
 

phgreek

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The economy will not improve as long as parties are looking out for their best interests. Until actual compromise happens, it will be a long slow haul. My fear is that if Obama wins, Reps will become even more conservative and combative, and if Romney wins, Dems will do the same thing Reps did to Obama, block everything.

yea...that is almost certainly the case. Really hard to say what to do w/o a viable 3rd party alternative...
 

ND NYC

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The economy will not improve as long as parties are looking out for their best interests. Until actual compromise happens, it will be a long slow haul. My fear is that if Obama wins, Reps will become even more conservative and combative, and if Romney wins, Dems will do the same thing Reps did to Obama, block everything.

the hope is that our elected leaders on both sides will coem to their senses and put country first. the probelm is, they all view "compromise" as "defeat". recipe for disaster.

doing nothing WILL be worse for all of us than doing something and doing it quickly.

another 4 yrs of gridlock like weve had and i think the whole term limit debate roars to the forefront from the ground up regardless of party.
 

Rhode Irish

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The economy will not improve as long as parties are looking out for their best interests. Until actual compromise happens, it will be a long slow haul. My fear is that if Obama wins, Reps will become even more conservative and combative, and if Romney wins, Dems will do the same thing Reps did to Obama, block everything.

If devoting four years of their congressional careers to defeating Obama in 2012 fails, you would think (or at least hope) that maybe they would try a different strategy. Obstinate obstructionism is not a method of governance. It isn't like the feedback for these guys is extremely positive - their approval rating is flirting with single digits.
 

jason_h537

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lol What did you watch?!?

I watched the DNC and RNC without gritting my teeth the entire time. Perhaps you missed all of Bill Clinton's speech which was entirely policy and called true by politifact and other fact checking sites. Perhaps you missed Obama talking about wanting to keep fighting for the American Jobs Act which economists project will add 1.9 Million jobs (and was voted down unanimously by republicans already), or him letting the Bush tax cuts expire for those making over $250K. They compared where the $700 billion cut to medicare will come from savings and the expansion of Obamacare compared to Ryans $700 billion cut that will come from actual cuts and creating a voucher program. He talked about his bill that will give businesses tax breaks for hiring veterans and a plan to help vets with housing. That is not even going into social policies which are a complete contrast with the Republicans.

Like i said previously, you may not agree with the policy but they talked policy. I would link websites verifying all this but the last time I did you completely dismissed them and said

I don't see how two entities with no legal authority means squat, Republican or not.

So clearly facts mean nothing to you. Now this is where you tell me about the policies and details you heard at the RNC. Also, keep in mind that Paul Ryans speech has been labeled completely false by everyone. So will you fill in the policy for me?
 

phgreek

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the hope is that our elected leaders on both sides will coem to their senses and put country first. the probelm is, they all view "compromise" as "defeat". recipe for disaster.

doing nothing WILL be worse for all of us than doing something and doing it quickly.

another 4 yrs of gridlock like weve had and i think the whole term limit debate roars to the forefront from the ground up regardless of party.

term limits...Well I know Clinton would be all over that ...well Bill anyway...thinkin Hills would be opposed, at least until she had a run at it...pay $ to be a fly on the wall in the Clinton househould should that topic come up...hehehehe:)
 

pkt77242

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Dems "occasionally" blame Republicans for killing the planet, women, social security, Medicare, poor, etc. Unfortunately, they aren't true.

Republicans want to reform Social Security because it's a HUGE unfunded liability. If it isn't reformed with true leadership, no one will get it. Republicans want to save it.

That is actually a lie. I believe that if it isn't reformed it will only be able to pay out about 75 cents on the dollar. Not quite "No one will get it". Care to try again. Social Security Fund to Run Out in 2035, Trustees Say - Bloomberg

Of course social security needs to be tweaked but shockingly it can be fixed with a couple of easy tweaks. I would also say that Republicans do want to kill Medicare as we know it and push that burden on to the people who can least afford it.
 

Rhode Irish

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jason, I don't really get where Buster is coming from on this stuff - outside of these political threads he has typically been a pretty good poster and a logical person - but there is clearly no use in trying to reason with him here. I totally get that people can and do have philosophical differences, but in this election the Romney campaign has totally abandoned arguing those differences and committed to just saying whatever they think will poll best without regard for facts or truth. Apparently Buster is just being a good soldier and falling in line with that approach.

Objective observers and sober analysts on both sides have all concluded that the RNC was short on policy and long on untruths and misstatements, and that the DNC was one of the more politically successful conventions of modern times. Of course, part of the right wing ethos is to believe that anybody who says something they don't like is biased and not objective, so proving that kind of a point is to try to hit a moving target.

I don't know the root or the genesis of Buster's hatred for the President or his unique allegiance to Romney (even other republican voters seem to support him only begrudgingly), but it is clearly so strong that it is altering his reality.

I'm not saying that conservatives should all be convinced by the arguments made at the DNC and the election should be called off. I'm just saying that it looks petty and undermines your credibility when you just automatically say it was bad and the criticism does not seem to be attached to reality at all. Like I said, philosophical differences are understandable, but if you can't even concede that the democrats had a very effective convention then I'm not sure there is much basis for continuing to have a conversation.
 
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palinurus

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I have friends and relatives across the spectrum; I come from a steel town/auto town, so have relatives and friends, ranging from blue collar union workers to professionals. In my opinion, people need to be able to discuss ideas and disagree without becoming personal; these are ideas, not personal indictments.

It's regrettable that, for some, those with whom they disagree can't possibly be just mistaken or wrong or simply assess certain facts differently (probably the biggest factor in disagreements); they must be liars, delusional, bad, selfish, evil, totally unreasonable, etc. (Not to say there are no liars and scoundrels; but we ought to have proof of such charges before we allege them, imo.) This habit of accusing those we disagree with of the worst sort of personal traits is quite arrogant and is actually an intellectual surrender, and , moreover, it's emotionally immature.
 

Rhode Irish

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I have friends and relatives across the spectrum; I come from a steel town/auto town, so have relatives and friends, ranging from blue collar union workers to professionals. In my opinion, people need to be able to discuss ideas and disagree without becoming personal; these are ideas, not personal indictments.

It's regrettable that, for some, those with whom they disagree can't possibly be just mistaken or wrong or simply assess certain facts differently (probably the biggest factor in disagreements); they must be liars, delusional, bad, selfish, evil, totally unreasonable, etc. (Not to say there are no liars and scoundrels; but we ought to have proof of such charges before we allege them, imo.) This habit of accusing those we disagree with of the worst sort of personal traits is quite arrogant and is actually an intellectual surrender, and , moreover, it's emotionally immature.

I agree that people can disagree without being disagreeable, and I have consistently said here that I respect conservatism as a philosophy and recognize it as a legitimate worldview. Now, as a liberal, I think it is basically wrong, but I don't dismiss people who identify as conservative just on that basis alone.

I do think, however, that people should not be expected to ignore or excuse cynical campaign tactics in an attempt to seem more objective or civil. I'm not denying that campaigns on my side could engage in some tactics the other side objects to, also. But in this campaign, I think part of what aggravates and motivates my side is the propensity that the Romney campaign has shown to make up and misrepresent facts on a regular basis, and to say anything - without regard for its truthfulness - that they have found to test well in focus groups.

Unfortunately, the Romney campaign has engaged in some truly disgusting tactics, especially running racially-coded and demonstrably false ads concerning welfare reform in the battleground states. This comes after four years of not-even-coded bullsh;t concerning the President's citizenship, and a nationwide republican effort to restrict the voting access of democratic constituencies under the laughable guise of "preventing voter fraud" - a solution without a problem if there ever was one.

I, and most others on my side, welcome a debate about the issues in this election. We believe that, while surely not everyone agrees with liberal policy, more people will side with us than the other guys. But the other side has not engaged in an honest debate on the issues. Instead, they have tried to win the election using underhanded political tactics. The President has a lead despite the underperforming economy, despite being outspent by uber-wealthy special interests because of the Citizens United travesty of a SCOTUS decision, and despite the tactics being used by the other side. And we're coming into the debates, which I think liberals are salivating over.
 
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