Politics

Politics

  • Obama

    Votes: 4 1.1%
  • Romney

    Votes: 172 48.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 46 13.1%
  • a:3:{i:1637;a:5:{s:12:"polloptionid";i:1637;s:6:"nodeid";s:7:"2882145";s:5:"title";s:5:"Obama";s:5:"

    Votes: 130 36.9%

  • Total voters
    352

wizards8507

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Look at you and your misleading facts... Trump won 45% of the vote in Utah. 21.3% of the state voted for Independent Evan McMullin. Trump didn't win Utah, one of the most conservative states in the country, by a 2-1 margin.... he just beat Clinton by that much. More than half of Utah would have voted for a dead raccoon on the side of Tabernacle Drive if it meant keeping Trump out of office. That 45% was the lowest support ever recorded by a winning presidential candidate in Utah history.
Beating Hillary by two-to-one is what I meant and you know that. It's a bullshit assertion. There are probably 20 different demographic groups that were more "Trump resistant" than Mormons.
 

ACamp1900

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Everyone fighting over that immaculate door to door game out in Utah...
 

Whiskeyjack

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Beating Hillary by two-to-one is what I meant and you know that. It's a bullshit assertion. There are probably 20 different demographic groups that were more "Trump resistant" than Mormons.

You can find dozens of articles with lots of polling data to support the assertion by simply Googling the obvious search terms.

Yeah and Whiskey shouldn't threaten us with a gun, but he and I are still buds. At least I think so

Seriously considering changing my avatar to the Young Pope, but I've had this one for so long...
 

wizards8507

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There's plenty of data out there to support it. As a denomination, Mormons were the least likely to support Trump of all those usually find on the American right.
Yeah but not because they're un-lonely. Because they're fundamentalist Christians.

It's like saying the KKK didn't support Tim Scott so it must mean that the KKK hates bald people. No, that probably has nothing to do with it. Correlation and causation and whatnot.

You can find dozens of articles with lots of polling data to support the assertion by simply Googling the obvious search terms.
But it's all stipulated with "...on the traditional Right," which means it's irrelevant. If the assertions in the article were true, they'd be true across the political spectrum. There's no reason loneliness should uniquely affect those on the Right.
 
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zelezo vlk

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You can find dozens of articles with lots of polling data to support the assertion by simply Googling the obvious search terms.



Seriously considering changing my avatar to the Young Pope, but I've had this one for so long...

Botticelli's St. Augustine in His Study or keep Walter
 

woolybug25

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Beating Hillary by two-to-one is what I meant and you know that. It's a bullshit assertion. There are probably 20 different demographic groups that were more "Trump resistant" than Mormons.

You're so full of shit that it's coming out of your ears. Utah support Republican nominees more than almost every state. Mormons are one of the highest percentage of Republicans by percentage in the country, yet he couldn't even win half the state? Hell... 66% of Utah residents are registered Republicans. Beating Hillary soundly doesn't prove that Mormons like him. But him getting almost half the votes that Romney got four years prior certainly does.

Beating Hillary by 2-1 is far different than winning 2-1... and YOU know that... I'm not nitpicking that you forgot to add a weirdo with .092% of the vote, McMullin damn near beat out Clinton and you completely left him out.


You are really off your game today. Very low energy. Sad.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Yeah but not because they're un-lonely. Because they're fundamentalist Christians.

It's like saying the KKK didn't support Tim Scott so it must mean that the KKK hates bald people. No, that probably has nothing to do with it.

But it's all stipulated with "...on the traditional Right," which means it's irrelevant. The assertions presented in the article would be present without that caveat if they were legitimate.

Trump won both Evangelical Christians and Mormons, but the former, who tend to live more socially atomized lives than the latter, went for him in much larger numbers. Trump's support in Utah was pathetic compared to Romney's and GW Bush's. There's plenty of data to support the assertion.
 

wizards8507

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Trump won both Evangelical Christians and Mormons, but the former, who tend to live more socially atomized than the latter, went for him in much larger numbers. Trump's support in Utah was pathetic compared to Romney's and GW Bush's. There's plenty of data to support the assertion.
Trump ran in an election with a quasi-viable third party candidate in that state. Again, I'm not saying that any of these assertions are false, just that there are major leaps necessary to infer a causal relationship here.
 

woolybug25

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Trump ran in an election with a quasi-viable third party candidate in that state. Again, I'm not saying that any of these assertions are false, just that there are major leaps necessary to infer a causal relationship here.

How in the hell are you considering McMullin as a "quasi-viable candidate"? Do you honestly think that anyone that voted for him in Utah actually thought he would win? Those votes are obviously protest votes. Almost a quarter of the state voted in protest.

There aren't major leaps. There are definitive polling and voting statistics to back up the claim. I don't get what you're not getting.
 

wizards8507

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There aren't major leaps. There are definitive polling and voting statistics to back up the claim. I don't get what you're not getting.
Whiskey's article claims that those people voted against Trump because they have a tight-knit community and aren't lonely like those evangelical slobs.
 

wizards8507

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<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/u3lug2Xr9wc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Milo live. Resigned from Breitbart.
 
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Whiskeyjack

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Whiskey's article claims that those people voted against Trump because they have a tight-knit community and aren't lonely like those evangelical slobs.

Most of the analysis on this subject came from pundits writing about who on the American Right resisted Trump, and what they have in common. As a former #NeverTrump conservative yourself, this ought to be of interest to you. The social atomization theory is the most plausible one I've seen, though it admittedly does line up with my ideological priors. Do you have a better theory?
 

woolybug25

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Whiskey's article claims that those people voted against Trump because they have a tight-knit community and aren't lonely like those evangelical slobs.

He only said the first part of that, not the latter.

and he is right...
 

wizards8507

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Most of the analysis on this subject came from pundits writing about who on the American Right resisted Trump, and what they have in common. As a former #NeverTrump conservative yourself, this ought to be of interest to you. The social atomization theory is the most plausible one I've seen, though it admittedly does line up with my ideological priors. Do you have a better theory?
Economics? Both my home town and my current town are fascinating examples:

West Warwick, Rhode Island:
Donald J. Trump - 5,724
Hillary Clinton - 5,540

James R. Langevin (D) - 6,623
Rhue R. Reis (R) - 3,434

Bristol, Connecticut:
Donald J. Trump - 12,739
Hillary Clinton - 12,476

Blumenthal (D) - 15,389
Carter (R) - 9,179

Those numbers are insane. Trump won both of these towns while Republican challengers to Democrat incumbents got slaughtered. The similarity between West Warwick and Bristol is that they're both hollowed out towns with mills that have been empty for 30 years. However, both towns have very strong communities, with twelve Catholic churches between them. Ethnic festivals (French, Irish, Portuguese, Italian, and Polish) mark the calendar year-round. Based on your social atomization theory, these people would have easily resisted Trumpism with their tight-knit communities, especially when you consider that they were on the Left in the first place. But community doesn't mean much when the factory is empty.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Economics? Both my home town and my current town are fascinating examples:

West Warwick, Rhode Island:
Donald J. Trump - 5,724
Hillary Clinton - 5,540

James R. Langevin (D) - 6,623
Rhue R. Reis (R) - 3,434

Bristol, Connecticut:
Donald J. Trump - 12,739
Hillary Clinton - 12,476

Blumenthal (D) - 15,389
Carter (R) - 9,179

Those numbers are insane. Trump won both of these towns while Republican challengers to Democrat incumbents got slaughtered. The similarity between West Warwick and Bristol is that they're both hollowed out towns with mills that have been empty for 30 years. However, both towns have very strong communities, with twelve Catholic churches between them. Ethnic festivals (French, Irish, Portuguese, Italian, and Polish) mark the calendar year-round. Based on your social atomization theory, these people would have easily resisted Trumpism with their tight-knit communities, especially when you consider that they were on the Left in the first place. But community doesn't mean much when the factory is empty.

That argument doesn't really refute the theory. There's a strong correlation between social atomization and economic decline anyway (with plenty of data to support it). The only thing that doesn't fit is your anecdotal assessment of how strong those communities really are. Most likely you're simply wrong in your assessment, and those communities are suffering just like all the others who voted similarly throughout the Midwest and Appalachia.
 

Whiskeyjack

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This morning, Justice Sotomayor went through and compared methods of execution. Conclusion: Firing squad may be best <a href="https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm">https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm</a> <a href="https://t.co/5siTuph2wB">pic.twitter.com/5siTuph2wB</a></p>— Chris McDaniel (@csmcdaniel) <a href="https://twitter.com/csmcdaniel/status/834121531148079105">February 21, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Get rid of the lethal injection and bring back the firing squad.
 

Whiskeyjack

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What came first, the lonelies or the poors?

Being both poor and lonely is a lot worse than being simply poor. Given a choice, I'd pick poverty every time (and there's a good argument that my eternal salvation might depend on doing so anyway).
 

wizards8507

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Being both poor and lonely is a lot worse than being simply poor. Given a choice, I'd pick poverty every time (and there's a good argument that my eternal salvation might depend on doing so anyway).
Not really on topic, but we were driving to the zoo yesterday and there was a man with a sign asking for money/food. My two year-old pointed to him and asked "what's this guy?" and my wife responded that he was asking for help because he might not have enough food. My daughter's response was "the waitress will bring him some," so confident and cheerful, and my heart exploded into about a billion pieces.
 

GATTACA!

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This morning, Justice Sotomayor went through and compared methods of execution. Conclusion: Firing squad may be best <a href="https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm">https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm</a> <a href="https://t.co/5siTuph2wB">pic.twitter.com/5siTuph2wB</a></p>— Chris McDaniel (@csmcdaniel) <a href="https://twitter.com/csmcdaniel/status/834121531148079105">February 21, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Get rid of the lethal injection and bring back the firing squad.

Definitely more cost effective.
 

zelezo vlk

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<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-lang="en"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">This morning, Justice Sotomayor went through and compared methods of execution. Conclusion: Firing squad may be best <a href="https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm">https://t.co/pkCLc0xNbm</a> <a href="https://t.co/5siTuph2wB">pic.twitter.com/5siTuph2wB</a></p>— Chris McDaniel (@csmcdaniel) <a href="https://twitter.com/csmcdaniel/status/834121531148079105">February 21, 2017</a></blockquote>
<script async src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

Get rid of the lethal injection and bring back the firing squad.

We wanna be really old school? Send everyone on death row to Australia.

Being both poor and lonely is a lot worse than being simply poor. Given a choice, I'd pick poverty every time (and there's a good argument that my eternal salvation might depend on doing so anyway).

Can confirm, poor > lonely. Poor & lonely breeds despair that poisons the mind, sometimes irrevocably.
 

Whiskeyjack

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Not really on topic, but we were driving to the zoo yesterday and there was a man with a sign asking for money/food. My two year-old pointed to him and asked "what's this guy?" and my wife responded that he was asking for help because he might not have enough food. My daughter's response was "the waitress will bring him some," so confident and cheerful, and my heart exploded into about a billion pieces.

Adorable. I like to have my kids hand them the money. Try to always keep cash and fliers with contact info for the local Catholic Charities in my car.

Funny you brought this up. I passed a guy pan-handling by the highway offramp near by office the other day. He was holding a rosary and his sign said, "Please help. I'll pray for you." I was stricken by the fear of God's justice like never before. Gave him all the cash in my wallet.

Definitely more cost effective.

More humane and gruesome as well. Taking a human life should never be medicalized/ sterilized.
 
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Cackalacky

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Adorable. I like to have my kids hand them the money. Try to always keep cash and fliers with contact info for the local Catholic Charities in my car.

Funny you brought this up. I passed a guy pan-handling by the highway offramp near by office the other day. He was holding a rosary and his sign said, "Please help. I'll pray for you." I was stricken by the fear of God's justice like never before. Gave him all the cash in my wallet.



More humane and gruesome as well. Taking a human life should never be medicalized/ sterilized.

Good stuff. My son and I were going over this earlier this week:
VI. LOVE FOR THE POOR

2443 God blesses those who come to the aid of the poor and rebukes those who turn away from them: "Give to him who begs from you, do not refuse him who would borrow from you"; "you received without pay, give without pay."232 It is by what they have done for the poor that Jesus Christ will recognize his chosen ones.233 When "the poor have the good news preached to them," it is the sign of Christ's presence.

While we were out downtown one day, we saw a homeless man trying to avoid the rain (unsuccessfully) and was without any kind of jacket or umbrella. He was trying to keep under the sidewalk awnings but he wasnt able to go too far without blocking doors or the storefronts. I see him routinely at various places downtown and have helped him out in the past. My son asked why he didnt have a jacket or unmbrella to keep from getting wet. I explained his situation, and also explained that he couldnt go inside the stores or restaraunts because he couldnt buy anything to be a customer. It upset my son that the stores wouldnt let him come in and get out of the rain.

We were later at a nearby corner store getting a snack and my son apprently saw some ponchos on the rack. Before I knew it he was holding 5 ponchos and standing in line. I asked what he was doing and he said he was waiting to pay for the ponchos so he could give it to the man. I offered to pay for it but he had his weeks allowance with him and bought as many of them as he could with his allowance. He promptly went and gave them to the man.
 
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GATTACA!

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Good stuff. My son and I were going over this earlier this week:


While we were out downtown one day, we saw a homeless man trying to avoid the rain (unsuccessfully) and was without any kind of jacket or umbrella. He was trying to keep under the sidewalk awnings but he wasnt able to go too far without blocking doors or the storefronts. I see him routinely at various places downtown and have helped him out in the past. My son asked why he didnt have a jacket or unmbrella to keep from getting wet. I explained his situation, and also explained that he couldnt go inside the stores or restaraunts because he couldnt buy anything to be a customer. It upset my son that the stores wouldnt let him come in and get out of the rain.

We were later at a nearby corner store getting a snack and my son apprently saw some ponchos on the rack. Before I knew it he was holding 5 ponchos and standing in line. I asked what he was doing and he said he was waiting to pay for the ponchos so he could give it to the man. I offered to pay for it but he had his weeks allowance with him and bought as many of them as he could with his allowance. He promptly went and gave them to the man.

Wow sounds like that kid has a pretty great father.

Good job Cackalacky.
 

NDohio

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Being both poor and lonely is a lot worse than being simply poor. Given a choice, I'd pick poverty every time (and there's a good argument that my eternal salvation might depend on doing so anyway).

There is a great book out there called "Under the Overpass".

UnderTheOverpass.com - Home

It is about two men who traveled to six different cities across America and lived as homeless. One of the things that they write about is that the number one thing they missed while living this life is people. They were lonely. People didn't spend time with them. Lot's of times folks would give them money or food but never just sat and talked with them. It changed the way I see the homeless and I try and make a point of actually sitting and talking with them.
 
C

Cackalacky

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Wow sounds like that kid has a pretty great father.

Good job Cackalacky.

Not sure if you are a parent or not, but this is one of the small victories that make it all worthwhile. Sometimes I feel could do better, sometimes I know I could do better, sometimes it doesn't seem enough, sometimes its completely out of your hands. Other times like these remind me of why I do them all in the first place.

Thanks for the kind words.
 

Whiskeyjack

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The NYT's Ross Douthat just published an article titled "The Meaning of Milo":

To be clear on what just happened in the strange carnival that still calls itself American conservatism: First, the Conservative Political Action Conference invited, as one of its headlining speakers, the right-wing provocateur Milo Yiannopoulos, a gay cross-dressing Catholic part-Jewish Brit who likes to boast about his sexual appetite, favors “ironic” racial and misogynist humor, and not occasionally describes the president of the United States as “Daddy.”

Got all that? Good, because then the same conference had to hastily disinvite Yiannopoulos when some of his critics on the right publicized clips from a not-very-long-ago interview in which he appeared to offer favorable comments about pederasty.

It would be … interesting to send this story backward in time to a distant era like the year of our Lord 2004, and see what people back then made of it. 2004 was, you may recall, the year of the “values voter,” when anti-same-sex marriage referendums passed across the country, George W. Bush was re-elected with strong evangelical support, and liberals feared that a killjoy fundamentalism was about to make America Puritan Again.

From Dubya’s evangelical conservatism to Milo’s Rimbaudian new right, from “marriage is between a man and a woman” to “well, we draw the line at ephebophilia” is a rather dizzying trajectory. But if you understand what’s happened to cultural conservatism over the last decade, the strange career of Yiannopoulos makes a striking sort of sense.

First, post-1960s social conservatism — the bigger-than-the-religious-right tent that once included a lot of moderately religious fellow travelers — has collapsed back to its zealous core. On practically every issue save abortion, liberals won the culture war decisively, and religious conservatives awoke to find themselves strangers in their own country, dismissed as bigots from liberalism’s pulpits and stuck on the wrong side of 40-60 or 30-70 public-opinion splits.

But social liberalism’s sweeping victory produced new forms of backlash — less traditionalist and more populist, less religious and more rowdy, not sacred but profane. These forms of resistance take aim at liberalism’s own forms of social-justice sanctimony, which have smothered academic life and permeated notionally apolitical arenas from late-night comedy to internetsafesearch.com. The resisters don’t exactly have a program. Instead, they’ve got a posture — a “whaddya got?” rebellion against any rules that the new liberal order sets.

Some of this posturing is specifically masculine: A young-bachelor revolt against the new feminism and its date-rape tribunals, a broader male discontent with rules of sex, marriage and divorce that seem good for “alphas,” male and female, but not for average guys. Some of it is more class- and ethnicity-based: redneck deplorables giving the finger to the prissy upper class; older whites uneasy over multiculturalism and nostalgic for a more homogeneous America; middle-American radicals to whom the moral code of liberalism seems built for a socioeconomic order that doesn’t give a fig about their fate.

These rebels do not necessarily have all that much in common with one another, let alone with the remainders of the religious right. The Trump-voting “deplorable” is likely to be a cultural evangelical but not a churchgoer, or a pro-choice lapsed Catholic who never cared for religious moralists. The typical “manosphere” denizen is something else entirely — younger, tech-savvy, impious, impressed with his own unblinking Darwinism. As constituent parts of cultural conservatism, these groups don’t form a particularly coherent whole; what unites them are common fears (feminism, political correctness, sometimes Islam), not a common cause.

In this sense, as in others, America is becoming more like Europe, where conservatism has been less -than religious for some time, and the cultural right has long had a fractured and incoherent quality. (Consider France’s National Front, which draws support from Catholic traditionalists, ex-Communist workingmen and secular — and gay — voters who fear Islam’s encroachments.)

So perhaps it’s appropriate that Milo, a European import, has been one of the first to successfully straddle the fractures. If each faction on America’s new cultural right is a stranger to the others, he is a stranger to all of them. The social conservatives are strait-laced, and he’s promiscuous (he says); the male anti-feminists are insistently straight, and he’s flamboyantly gay; the working-class white heartlanders are, well, working-class heartlanders, and he’s a British-accented foreigner.

But his outsider status is a selling point, not a liability. Even as it lets him turn the left’s identity politics against itself, it also enables him to flatter each conservative constituency in a somewhat different way, to give each a piece of vindication and play to each with a piece of his persona.

Thus he lets religious conservatives feel, on the one hand, like they’re accepting the realities of the culture war — it’s over, we lost, we need to make allies of gay people instead of scapegoats — while simultaneously suggesting, through his performative promiscuity, his Victorian-decadent relationship with Catholicism, that they were actually right about homosexuality all along. (As the writer Walter Olson of the Cato Institute pointed out recently, a staider sort of gay conservative might actually have less appeal.)

He lets male chauvinists and alt-right tough guys feel vindicated in their hostility to political correctness — see, even the gay guy in drag gets it — while offering a harsh critique of feminism that unlike theirs is free from the accusation that it’s being offered in sexual self-interest.

And when he goes out to Middle America — I recommend watching his visit to Memories Pizza in Indiana, the small-town pizzeria subjected to a two-minute hate because its owners said they might not cater a gay wedding — he presents himself (posh-sounding accent and all) as an ambassador from the cosmopolitan reaches of society, here to apologize for the terrible behavior of his fellow snobs and globe-trotters.

So Milo’s appeal on the right is, one might say, intersectional.

Moreover, his provocations tend to actually work, in the sense that they summon up the illiberal, “shut up or we’ll shut you down” side of left-wing politics. Time and again, the offensive thing he said or did to prompt protests or violence or hysteria recedes into the background, and all that conservatives take from his performances is the vindication of their fears about the left. Indeed this is precisely why he found himself offered a prominent slot at CPAC — for the sake of the illiberal responses his campus appearances elicit, for his enemies’ sake rather than his own.

It is telling that it took a seeming defense of pederasty, a breach of the last taboo uniting our fractured culture, to make conservatives pay more attention to Milo’s own excesses than to the excesses he sets out to provoke.

And it will be equally telling, I suspect, when he finds a way to rebound from this setback, to escape shunning and find a willing right-wing audience again.

But for a cultural conservatism united only by a shared outsider sensibility, neither consistency nor propriety are consensus virtues any longer — and indecency in the service of attacking liberalism is no vice.

Turns out that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't work very well for building sustainable political coalitions.
 

wizards8507

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Turns out that "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" doesn't work very well for building sustainable political coalitions.
Whiskeyjack plagiarizes Shaprio. FAKE NEWS! Sad!

shSjhGm.png


But on the substance of the article, cultural conservatism can't afford to be as uptight as the Ross Douthats and Jonah Goldbergs of the world want us to be. George Will and Charles Krauthammer are brilliant, but they're also boring. We need Milos and Paul Joseph Watsons and Steven Crowders to "red pill" the next generation because their absurdity is the only thing that penetrates the wall of the MSM and gets young people interested. Kids are learning about liberty for the first time in their lives from YouTube of all places.
 

zelezo vlk

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Whiskeyjack plagiarizes Shaprio. FAKE NEWS! Sad!

shSjhGm.png


But on the substance of the article, cultural conservatism can't afford to be as uptight as the Ross Douthats and Jonah Goldbergs of the world want us to be. George Will and Charles Krauthammer are brilliant, but they're also boring. We need Milos and Paul Joseph Watsons and Steven Crowders to "red pill" the next generation because their absurdity is the only thing that penetrates the wall of the MSM and gets young people interested. Kids are learning about liberty for the first time in their lives from YouTube of all places.

Imagine if they'd learn about liberty at home and school...
 
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