Police State USA

[Rocket89]

Drayer right on cue, it’s amazing.

 

[Bishop2b5]

You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.

First, the "victim blaming" card is overused and badly used too often. It's like screaming "RACISM!!!" every time you're losing an argument to facts. It's an emotional argument used by mushy thinkers instead of using logic and facts and done in order to avoid reality. The "victim" often IS to blame in some way for what happens to them (though the word "victim" is hardly appropriate in many of these cases). Basically, screaming "victim blaming" is a silly, transparent, emotional way to deny responsibility for one's actions in most cases.

If you never do homework, never pay attention in class, drop out of school, never put any effort into learning a skill, and have a bad attendance and effort record at every job you've had, and someone points out that your being broke is a result of that and is your own fault, is that victim blaming or just the hard truth? If you spend your life dealing drugs, breaking into people's homes, robbing people, and raping, then you end up in prison, is someone telling you that your situation is of your own making victim blaming or truth? So, if you're constantly involved in criminal activity, brandishing weapons when engaged with the police, fighting with the police, resisting arrest, attempting to elude, and refusing to obey lawful orders from the police, do you not bear some responsibility for the results? Of course you do. That doesn't mean the cops can just shoot you without cause, but when you do stupid stuff over & over, don't complain when you get stupid results. You brought a lot of that on yourself. Actions and behavior have consequences.

 

[Bishop2b5]

Drayer right on cue, it’s amazing.

Why? You and a few others constantly push a false narrative that all cops are bad, it's NEVER the criminal's fault, all cops are racist assassins of poor innocent minorities, and then you have nothing but a smartass, non-contributive reply when he posts a video showing otherwise.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.

A+++++++ post right here

 

[drayer54]

Drayer right on cue, it’s amazing.

What’s up? Seems pertinent to the discussion of policing, IMHO.

 

[drayer54]

You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

In your comment you highlighted 6 areas to blame victims:

1) Criminal behavior
2) Resisting arrest
3) Attempting to flee
4) Fighting with police
5) Obey lawful commands
6) Brandishing weapons

Numbers 1, 2, 3, and 5 almost never require excessive force, and certainly not deadly force. There's more gray area in number 4 and even more in number 6. Lumping in 1, 2, 3, and 5 as justification for a shooting is exactly part of the problem with police. For most of the country understanding this problem is elementary to American justice.

The problem with the Victim Blaming crowd is that when there are accusations of police misconduct there's a reflex to act like law enforcement are always in situations where excessive/deadly force is necessary--and when that runs counter to the facts as we're seeing clearly with Adam Toledo--the next step is to blame the victim even further to a more personal degree (he was a gang member, dealt drugs, used drugs, had a record, where were the parents, etc) and other tropes with racist origins to excuse police misconduct.

Just in the last 2 pages of this thread on Toledo's shooting we have such comments as:

"But his nickname was Lil' Homicide."
"Mother was not mothering."
"Gangbanger."
"Sympathy goes to the officer."
"Not all heroes wear capes."
"Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
"Would've been killed by another gang member anyway."

Zero moderate voices in this thread are saying these things. It's exclusively right-wing posters. It makes you wonder why? If right-wingers wanted to stick to the defense that Chicago is dangerous and it was a difficult situation with Toledo dropping the gun at the last second, that's acceptable. But, they're taken it even further with the vilification of the victim. Again, why?

In many of these cases, the more personal the victim blaming gets the greater the relationship between police misconduct. In the year 2021, if you see a white person using the term "gangbanger" in regards to an incident it's a dead give away where their motivation is w/r/t police and shootings. Americans with empathy don't need to say these things if the facts of the case line up in favor of the police.

If anyone made those above comments and they worked for Notre Dame, they'd likely be fired (oh no cancel culture!).

And yet, the handful of posters who made them will complain about the media going overboard and that it's the media's fault that they're bringing race into it to stoke the fire when in reality you can't find a more politicizing event than excessive victim blaming after shootings. Thick irony. Police reform will continue to be impossible when such a large bloc of voters think victim blaming is okay (even encouraged, especially within police themselves) and that less victim blaming means those against it are the greatest victims of all.

Police reform was proposed by Tim Scott just last year and filibustered by the Democrats who didn’t want it to be an accomplishment of the Republicans. They sacrificed it for perception going into an election. That’s 100% true.

I don’t see people who escalate situations with police officers into scenarios that justify deadly force as victims. My sympathy goes to officers who have guns drawn on them, molotovs hurled at them, chemicals flung at them, and those that are aggressively pursed by criminals. My sympathy goes to officers who are trying to protect and serve in dangerous communities that get their lives put wrecklessly in danger by people who are not good people and then have to be judged by naive radical left-wingers who think that the people in these communities do no wrong.

I don’t see moderates clinging to this insane idea that cops need to be put in more danger and should die more to avoid dangerous incidents with criminals. I don’t see moderates suggesting police should back off and let crime surge further in our cities. I find all of this to just be incredibly naive.

 

[TorontoGold]

Why? You and a few others constantly push a false narrative that all cops are bad, it's NEVER the criminal's fault, all cops are racist assassins of poor innocent minorities, and then you have nothing but a smartass, non-contributive reply when he posts a video showing otherwise.

Which posts have stated any of that? This is simply not true. Nobody has stated "all" this or "all" that.

 

[Rocket89]

That doesn't mean the cops can just shoot you without cause, but when you do stupid stuff over & over, don't complain when you get stupid results.

Cops shooting without cause, at least debatable without cause, is what we're talking about. The rest of your comments just agrees with my statements so thank you.

 

[Rocket89]

Why? You and a few others constantly push a false narrative that all cops are bad, it's NEVER the criminal's fault, all cops are racist assassins of poor innocent minorities, and then you have nothing but a smartass, non-contributive reply when he posts a video showing otherwise.

I've never pushed this narrative at all. But you need that for it to make sense to you.

I had a cop shoot and kill a young kid a few houses down from my home about a year ago. First policeman in our village to even fire his weapon in over a decade. The kid was high on LSD, locked himself in a bathroom, charged out of the house and came at the officer with a knife. There was pretty much universal agreement in our village that the officer was justified to use deadly force.

 

[Rocket89]

What’s up? Seems pertinent to the discussion of policing, IMHO.

Not really. Disarming the police is probably the lowest polling on any subject you'll get in the United States of America. Literally no one agrees with it.

So, posting a tweet of an officer getting a Molotov cocktail thrown at him and then typing sarcastically that police should be disarmed is a complete BS and amateurish move.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Caveat because I’m sick of being taken out of context. I’d love for criminals not to crime. I’d love for cops to not be in life threatening situations. I’d love for everyone to go home each night.

It’s interesting to me that the narrative from some in this thread is that because criminals do crimes it means they forgo their right to a criminal defense and they shouldn’t complain when they are killed by a cop and someone like me pointing it out somehow means I don’t side with the cops but side with the criminals. Due process is a cornerstone of our democracy. It matters.

I could be playing with a airsoft in my driveway and still should get the same rights as someone who killed nine people at worship in a church or someone who was or speeding away with a cop hanging out off my truck or being an armed kid crossing state lines killing rioters.

 

[Rocket89]

Police reform was proposed by Tim Scott just last year and filibustered by the Democrats who didn’t want it to be an accomplishment of the Republicans. They sacrificed it for perception going into an election. That’s 100% true.

That's right, and the Dems should be criticized for that just as much as Scott & Co. should be criticized for bringing a half-assed bill that does very little.

I don’t see people who escalate situations with police officers into scenarios that justify deadly force as victims.

'Scenarios justifying deadly force' being the area where there is criticism, which again, you're not even debating anymore.

then have to be judged by naive radical left-wingers who think that the people in these communities do no wrong.

Who is naïve? The vast majority of Americans agree on most police action. But when there's criticism this 'criminals can do no wrong' canard gets thrown out there.

I don’t see moderates clinging to this insane idea that cops need to be put in more danger and should die more to avoid dangerous incidents with criminals. I don’t see moderates suggesting police should back off and let crime surge further in our cities. I find all of this to just be incredibly naive.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. Who is saying cops need to be put in more danger??

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Not really. Disarming the police is probably the lowest polling on any subject you'll get in the United States of America. Literally no one agrees with it.

So, posting a tweet of an office getting a Molotov cocktail thrown at him and then typing sarcastically that police should be disarmed a complete BS and amateurish move.

Disarming? No not even I want them disarmed. Demilitarized? 100% absolutely.

 

[Rocket89]

Disarming? No not even I want them disarmed. Demilitarized? 100% absolutely.

That's right, which has far, far, far more support from the public.

 

[drayer54]

Not really. Disarming the police is probably the lowest polling on any subject you'll get in the United States of America. Literally no one agrees with it.

So, posting a tweet of an officer getting a Molotov cocktail thrown at him and then typing sarcastically that police should be disarmed is a complete BS and amateurish move.

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/dailycaller/status/1382037573095333889?s=21[/TWEET]

 

[Bishop2b5]

I've never pushed this narrative at all.

Baloney. Of course you have. That was exactly your point earlier. EVERY SINGLE ONE of your suggestions for fixing the problem revolved around what cops and society should do to fix the problem, and not a single suggestion had anything to do with what criminals should do to change their behavior. And you complained that my suggestions about criminals changing was victim blaming. Spare me the spin. You absolutely do and have pushed the narrative that it's all the cops' fault and the criminals are just victims.

 

[Rocket89]

[TWEET]https://twitter.com/dailycaller/status/1382037573095333889?s=21[/TWEET]

And I don't agree with Mike Elliott and neither do an overwhelming majority of Americans.

You can also kindly direct anyone to any comments I've made regarding disarming the police, if you'd like.

Also, you follow Daily Caller? No way, who would've thought....

 

[Rocket89]

Baloney. Of course you have. That was exactly your point earlier. EVERY SINGLE ONE of your suggestions for fixing the problem revolved around what cops and society should do to fix the problem, and not a single suggestion had anything to do with what criminals should do to change their behavior. And you complained that my suggestions about criminals changing was victim blaming. Spare me the spin. You absolutely do and have pushed the narrative that it's all the cops' fault and the criminals are just victims.

This is incompletely incorrect. Here are my comments:

"Plus, the way to improve things is to dramatically emphasize social programs, education, opportunity, and introduce somewhat radical changes to the duties of police, which includes more accountability."

Emphasizing social programs, education, and opportunity gets to the root cause of criminals changing their behavior.

So, to recap:

I've never once called all cops bad, never once said police should be disarmed, never once said it's never criminal's fault, nor never once said it's only up to cops to solve the problem. What I did do is meticulously point out, using direct statements, how excessive victim blaming in this very thread insulates police from criticism and harms efforts to change behaviors. What, you thought "eh he was a gangbanger who was going to die anyway" gives ya'll the damn moral superiority here?? I even showed empathy for the cop that shot Toledo!

As completely expected, you and Drayer came back, affirming my points to a damn T and made up arguments that no one in here is making to try and justify your viewpoint. I'm not alone in thinking others could've predicted this very conversation from you two, as well.

 

[drayer54]

And I don't agree with Mike Elliott and neither do an overwhelming majority of Americans.

You can also kindly direct anyone to any comments I've made regarding disarming the police, if you'd like.

Also, you follow Daily Caller? No way, who would've thought....

Majority of Americans are very opposed to the radical ideas getting amplified about policing. People want neighborhood patrols and cops keeping the community safe. A majority of the country isn’t trying to put the cops at risk to keep armed criminals safe.

Mayor Elliott didn’t think this stuff up alone and the clip is relevant, not the source.

 

[Rocket89]

Majority of Americans are very opposed to the radical ideas getting amplified about policing. People want neighborhood patrols and cops keeping the community safe. A majority of the country isn’t trying to put the cops at risk to keep armed criminals safe.

Mayor Elliott didn’t think this stuff up alone and the clip is relevant, not the source.

I could be wrong, but has a single person in this 70-page thread promoted disarming police?

It's extremely unpopular, wasn't brought up, and doesn't pertain to any recent discussions in this thread. Who is even arguing for this? How was this anything other than a look squirrel! move to distract honest discussion?

 

[Blazers46]

We throw stats at each other all the time. Without giving out an unrealistic number of "0", at what level or what number would you want to be under in regard to police shootings to deem policing to be a success as opposed to the view the whole system needs to be overhauled?

 

[Blazers46]

I think I am going to just post positive things police do.

Newark cops save man with CPR after suffering cardiac arrest in car

https://abc7ny.com/body-cam-captures-moment-nj-cops-save-man-with-cpr/10523239/

 

[Blazers46]

Has anyone ever thought about how many lives are saved by police per year? Curious if anyone has ever did some sort of impact study on policing and saved lives.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

While you are doing that I’ll keep doing this.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-19182-5_10

 

[Blazers46]

While you are doing that I’ll keep doing this.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-19182-5_10

Be great if you could just explain the book as opposed to me spending $79.99 to read your link

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Be great if you could just explain the book as opposed to me spending $79.99 to read your link

Nah.....

 

[nvirish]

6 year old shot and killed today on the SW side of Chicago. 20 shots around a park. People complaining that the police aren’t doing enough with all the gangs in the area. 2 miles over they are having a candlelight remembrance of Adam T who was a Latin King. In typical media coverage the 6 year old will be forgotten as it didn’t have anything to do with the police.

 

[Cackalacky2.0]

Just found out my17 cousin was shot and killed walking home tonight. Details are murky

 

[Irish#1]

You quite literally just spelled out the definition of victim blaming. Here's the deal:

If police are in a situation where they're being fired upon or someone is attacking them with a deadly weapon, and those police respond with deadly force, virtually no one complains about police misconduct and everyone rallies around law enforcement.

Not true. In Indy last year, a guy with a record refused to pull over and led the police on a chase and while fleeing was posting it live on Facebook. He even tells everyone he’s not going back to prison. He crashes , gets out starts running and fires on the police before they return fire and kill him.

Huge uproar with protesters blocking the street in front of the area where he was shot. They threw water bottles at the Chief who came to talk to them. Several more protests occurred the next few days.

 

[Irish#1]

Just found out my17 cousin was shot and killed walking home tonight. Details are murky

Prayers for him Cack.